[Text on screen: We Acknowledge Country and recognise the lands, skies and waterways of where our schools and workplaces are located. We pay respect to Elders past and present as ongoing leaders and teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories, and acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that contributed to the development of this film.]

[Text on screen: We advise this resource may contain images, voices or names of deceased persons in photographs, film, audio recordings or historical content.

In this film, terms including First Nations and Indigenous are used throughout. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred.]

Stephen Page

[Stephen Page sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

My name is Stephen Page.

I'm a Munaldjali Ngugi Nunukal man of south-east Queensland, freshwater/saltwater man.

I am a director of dance theatre, director of contemporary creation ceremonies, curator and carer of stories in the performing arts.

[Cute away to a montage of Stephen Page working with performers rehearsing Bennelong (2017)]

The process and the stories, and the inspirations of a recent work, or my present work that I have just created, a production a, a dance theatre production, Baleen Moondjan, is an inspired story that is a personal touch for me because it comes from my mother's Country of Minjerribah Moorgumpin, which is North Stradbroke Island.

[On screen is a film clip of performance from Baleen Moondjan – Adelaide Festival (2024)]

At this age of my life, I always wanted to do a story from my mother's Country. And before she passed away, that connection on Country, her resilience, what she had missed out on as a child, not being, you know, forbidden to speak her own language, to carry language, to carry knowledge, to be connected to cultural practices, to know her kinship system, totemic kinship system. So, there were all these questions and that inspired me then to say, okay, I want to do a work for my mother.

So, Baleen Moondjan is, baleen is a form of whale. And, it's, it's not a particular whale, but the baleen has this enormous like, it's almost like a layer of knowledge that sits under their chin. And I thought the metaphor of that was a sense, the enormity of the whale, the storing of knowledge was a great way to have that as a metaphor to carry the story I wanted to tell about my mother.

And it's really just a generational story about grandmother and granddaughter and how these principles and values of knowledge is very important for the continual passing down of that knowledge. And so, it's a very simple story through song, dance, live music, sitting in this huge baleen-inspired whale bones, inside the belly of it. And that's what I presented to Ruth Mackenzie at the Adelaide Festival, and she's just was like, okay, let's go.

[On screen is a film clip of performance from Baleen Moondjan – Adelaide Festival (2024)]

One of the first part of the processes of creating story in the mediums that I work with, First Nation Stories, is that the processes, the relationships, community and clan, having a connection of what you are doing. And that, to me, is cultural protocol. That starts the first setting of cultural protocols and the process that you take.

All my time as artistic director of Bangarra, which I did for close to 34 years, we were First Nations artists, storytellers coming from all walks of life all over this country. So Aboriginal and Torres Strait, north, south, east, west of the country, urban, traditional, remote, metropolitan. Artists of all walks of life come together and they form under one shelter a contemporary clan called Bangarra.

[On screen is a montage of Stephen Page working with performers in Bangarra Dance Theatre rehearsals (2021)]

Now, the name Bangarra was chosen because it's a Wiradjuri word, which means 'to make fire.'

So that was endorsed by Wiradjuri elders that that name would be the name that would shelter this collective group of artists. And then, people were then wanting and waiting for what stories we were going to tell.

Now in those very beginnings permission for songs, permission for stories, Elders involved in community, wherever that story came from there were these dilly bag of cultural protocol principles, that you as a family and as a clan would, would pretty much obey to, you know, and, and that's just out of respect for stories to be cared for, to be respected.

And then in that process, once that's all talked through, you are allowed to go into your creative cave and then work with your clan for that story. You are allowed to bring your clan or your mob from outside to come and view that experience.

[On screen is a montage of Stephen Page working with performers on Country to develop Sandsong – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2022)]

A lot of the ideas and stories I've had over my professional career, they've all come from relationships and connections. There have been a few works where communities have come to me and said, hey, Stephen Page, you do shows at the Opera House. We want you to tell our story through your form. That becomes challenging because then you have a responsibility to care for that work and to make sure the integrity is kept within the mainstream.

Then you'll have stories that might be First Nations social political stories. They could be current and contemporary. Those stories are challenging too, because you then have the, you have cultural protocols where you might, people that were active in those social stories, you will want to be talking to and sharing and being inspired.

And at the end of the day, it's all about sharing the communication of story of what you're doing. But it's about those giving time to the relationship. I don't want to walk in there with a shopping trolley and just go off any stack and feel like I can take any inspiration and walk out. We can't do that in First Nations storytelling.

So, I've just had a very great opportunity in my experiences over my career where different stories inform different ways to connect to those particular cultural protocols. And once again, they're based on families and clans and sharing that relationship of story.

[On screen is a montage of Stephen Page working with performers on Country to develop Sandsong – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2022)]

My process of working with a clan of artists, what I would call our creative team or our creative clan, which usually exists of dancers, actors, composers, lighting designers, set designers, costume designers, sometimes a playwright. And I suppose my form of First Nations theatrical storytelling, and the form I work in, gives me an opportunity to work with all those different mediums.

[Cuts away to a film clip of performance extracts from Wudjang: Not the Past (2022) – Bangarra Dance Theatre and Sydney Theatre Company]

Wudjang is vast. Wudjang.

[Film clip continues as Stephen Page speaks, and includes footage from Baleen Moondjan (2024)]

Stephen Page

I did Wudjang: Not the Past, a story from my father's freshwater community. Munaldjali Yugambeh Nation man. And this time around I got the opportunity to do my mother's story, Baleen Moondjan.

So, I've worked with pretty much the same creative clan for, for close to over 20 years.

[End of film clip]

So, I have a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artists, creatives and non-Indigenous artists who I bring together to tell this one First Nation story.

And with them coming together with me, we get to somehow unite as one with all those different art forms.

[On screen is a film clip of Stephen Page working with performers in Bangarra Dance Theatre rehearsals (2021)]

I've just been really obsessed with creation ceremonies, of bringing the multi forms of art forms together in a really strong way to tell, to heighten a story. I always feel First Nations storytelling are so deep in its spiritual connections of ideas to its exteriors, to just its whole, the whole inspiration.

The more, the older I get, I feel our representation of all these art forms pay true homage to the death and spirit of our First Nations story. So, when I got to do my father's story, I wanted it to be a First Nations opera. I wanted it to have that epic-ness.

[Cuts away to a film clip of performance from Wudjang: Not the Past (2022) – Bangarra Dance Theatre and Sydney Theatre Company]

Performance

[Performers singing]

[End of film clip]

Stephen Page

[Stephen Page sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

And it's been the same in Baleen Moondjan. It's the same spine and footprint of process and bringing all those art forms together.

[On screen are still photographs of the set and performers from Baleen Moondjan – Adelaide Festival (2024)]

When you look in First Nations artistic kinship system, you know, you have the storyteller, you have the song man, you have the dancer. You have the body designs that have to be painted on body to, to awaken the spirit to perform.

So, we've always, in our traditions, in our old ways, we've always have brought all those art forms together to tell the one story.

That for me, I believe, is when you accept who you are as an artist. And you accept that spirit gift that you have, you constantly make sure that you communicate that, and the caring of that story is shared with your clan of artists.

[On screen is a film clip of Stephen Page working with performers in Bangarra Dance Theatre rehearsals (2021)]

I am so glad that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artistic kinship system has always been alive and has always been breathing. And it really is at the core of our social system, and it's what gives us the tough goanna skin. You know, it's what gives us the power in our resilience.

Without that, I don't think, you could continue with truth.

[Cuts away to a film clip of performance from Wudjang: Not the Past (2022) – Bangarra Dance Theatre and Sydney Theatre Company]

[Text on screen: Baleen Moondjan (2024) footage courtesy of Adelaide Festival.

Additional footage provided by Bangarra Dance Theatre Australia.]

[Text on screen: BALEEN MOONDJAN (2024)

Performers

Gindara Elaine Crombie

Nundigili Zipporah Corser-Anu

Spirit of Yallingbillar Brendon Boney

Narrator DOBBY

Musicians

Jorjabelle Munday

Taj Pigram

Dance Ensemble

Alexander Abbot

Rika Hamaguchi

Gusta Mara

Beau Dean Riley Smith

Nicola Sabatino

Glory Tuohy-Daniell]

[Text on screen: Director & Co-writer – Stephen Page

Co-writer Alana Valentine

Set Design Jacob Nash

Costume Design Jennifer Irwin

Lighting Design Damien Cooper

Composer & Sound Designer Steve Francis

Musical Director Paul Mac

Language Consultant Donna Page

Assistant Director Beau Dean Riley Smith

Company Stage Manager Matthew Schubach

Assistant Stage Manager Kerry Ireland

Producer Jo Dyer]

[Text on screen: Lighting Programmer Harry Clegg

Sound Operator David Trumpmanis

Radio Mic Technician Tarlee Penwill

Wardrobe Maintenance Laz Snoswell

Photography Daniel Boud & Ashley de Prazer

Senior Program Manager Kate Donnelly

Production Manager Paige Goodwin

Production Coordinator Leisa Gosling

Site Coordinator Thomas Pidd

NIDA Production Secondment Shery Simson]

[Text on screen: Camera Operator David Tang

Camera Operator Celia Rio Suarez

Vision Switch Nik Carr

Lighting, Systems Text Simon Richie

Sound, Systems Tech Marco Rab

Vision, Systems Tech Rory Parker]

[Text on screen: BENNELONG (2018)

Choreographer Stephen Page

Composer Steve Francis

Set Design Jacob Nash

Lighting Design Nick Schlieper

Costume Design Jenny Irwin

Dramaturg Alana Valentine

Cultural Consultant Matthew Doyle]

[Text on screen: SANDSONG Stories from the Great Sandy Desert (2021)

Choreographers Stephen Page Frances Rings

and the dancers of Bangarra Dance Theatre

Cultural Consultants Putuparri Tom Lawford Eva Nargoodah Cultural Consultancy,

Wangkatjungka & Walmajarri Elders

Composer Steve Francis

Set Designer Jacob Nash

Costume Designer Jennifer Irwin

Lighting Designer Nick Schlieper

AV Designer David Bergman

Rehearsal Director Daniel Roberts

Aerial Movement Consultant Joshua Thomson

Rigging Consultant Chris Twyman

Sound Recordist Brendon Boney

Reaturing dancers of Bangarra Dance Theatre]

[Text on screen: WUDJANG: Not the Past (2022)

Director/Co-writer/Choreographer Stephen Page

Co-writer Alana Valentine

Set Designer Jacob Nash

Composer Steve Francis

Costume Designer Jenny Irwin

Lighting Designer Nick Schlieper

Assistant Director Kate Dunn

Music Director Alan John

Associate Music Director/Musician Veronique Serret

Vocal Coach Leith McPherson

Language Consultant Donna Page

Actors Elaine Crombie, Jess Hitchcoc, Elma Kris, Kirk Page, Justin Smith

Musicians Brendan Boney, Amaru Derwent, Tess Nuku

Featuring dancers of Bangarra Dance Theatre]

[Text on screen: With special thanks to Stephen Page

and Bangarra Dance Theatre]

[Text on screen: NSW Department of Education:

Aboriginal Education and Communities

Secondary Curriculum - Creative Arts]

[Text on screen: Filmed and edited Andrew Piper

Producer Carolyn Hammer

Production Manager Emily Murphy-O'Neill

Production Assistant Gemma El Kazzi

Filming on Gadigal Country, Sydney Opera House]

[End of transcript]

[Text on screen: We Acknowledge Country and recognise the lands, skies and waterways of where our schools and workplaces are located. We pay respect to Elders past and present as ongoing leaders and teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories, and acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that contributed to the development of this film.]

[Text on screen: We advise this resource may contain images, voices or names of deceased persons in photographs, film, audio recordings or historical content.

In this film, terms including First Nations and Indigenous are used throughout. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred.]

Beau Dean Riley Smith

[Beau Dean Riley Smith sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

My name is Beau Dean Riley Smith. I'm a storyteller.

I am Wiradjuri / Gamillaraay man from central New South Wales, from Dubbo.

I also grew up on Culburra Beach on Yuin Country, and I've been living on Gadigal country for the past 12 years.

[Cuts away to a film clip of a group of dancers in Wudjang: Not the Part – Bangarra Dance Theatre rehearsal (2022)

Performance

Blackface creature.

Beau Dean Riley Smith

I love dance. I love creating, I love the idea to be able to tell a story without words to be able to be quite poignant in what you're trying to deliver, and to be able to do that with your body.

You know, we've been doing it for thousands of years.

[End of film clip]

I guess the cultural processes to creating, creating Bennelong, you know, it's the same processes that you, that there is in just being in a community, being with your family, you know. But say with Bangarra, because we're all from different parts, you have to really engage in the community.

And so, there was a lot of discussions with Metropolitan Land Council, working with historians of Sydney, Richard Green, Matthew Doyle, you know, spent a lot of time working with the language, so engaging in the community from Sydney to make sure we're really bringing justice to, to this man. A very important man.

For me, being a Wiradjuri / Gamillaraay man, telling another man's story from a country that I do not belong, there is this cultural obligation to, to give justice to this man's story.

[On screen is a film clip of Bennelong photoshoot – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2017)]

[Cuts away to a film clip of Bennelong – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2017)]

Performance

I nestle in the soil. Are you, are you, are you.

Beau Dean Riley Smith

It takes a community to be able to tell a story, and that's just like life.

Art imitates life, life imitates art. At the end of the day, we are all just truth tellers.

[End of film clip]

In 2016, I was asked if I wanted to create a work with Bangarra Dance Theatre. And I come from a very strong matrilineal system, and so two of my mums, my aunties, Auntie Di, Diane McNaboe and Auntie Lynette Riley, everyone was a part of it.

All these conversations that would come in, that would teach about the totemic system, about the kinship system, about the moiety system, and then bringing my family in, really making sure that the dancers were a part of that.

They are my family because they are my family away from my family.

[On screen is a film clip of Miyagan rehearsal – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2016)]

There is always with me a one mindset in how to create a work. You engage with community first. You get consultancy. You discuss. You have a lot of conversations. You have to build relationships to be able to create, to create a work.

You have to make sure that foundation is right and correct, and that you go through those same protocols that you do when you engage in outside of the arts.

Maintaining relationships is key, and just doing that is, I guess, the key to creating a good work. A work that is specific.

When we were creating Miyagan, we actually went out on Country as well, so we brought everybody from Bangarra, the creatives out to Dubbo.

[On screen is a film clip of Miyagan rehearsal – Bangarra Dance Theatre (2016)]

It belongs to the community, and so yeah, the process of the conversations, all the conversations beforehand, then the meetings, bringing the world up, going back to Country, bringing the cast to Country, and then you spent five weeks creating, trying to create that magic, you know. There's all these puzzle pieces and trying to cultivate what it was that we saw on Country.

Then you tour it, and then the end, the end goal is to always bring that work back home. And that's where it can sleep.

[Cuts away to a film clip of Gubba – Sydney Dance Company, New Breed (2023)]

Performance

Go.

[Gunshot sound]

[End of film clip]

Beau Dean Riley Smith

The collaboration process, for me with Gubba was very different. It was the first time I was working with predominantly non-Indigenous artists. All I had was Brendon Boney, the sound designer, who is First Nations. But the rest was, you know, non-Indigenous people.

So, creating that, I, I had to lean into their experiences a lot because the work was about telling, telling a story of first contact in the Australian wars from a white perspective, but looking at it through a Black lens.

So, the processes in collaborating with the dancers from Sydney Dance Company, it was, it was challenging because for them it was a learning experience.

[On screen is a film clip of Gubba – Sydney Dance Company, New Breed (2023)]

They didn't, they didn't know anything, right? So, we had to do a lot of research. I asked them to watch The Australian Wars, get some kind of insight into what it is.

But then it was also, you know, really asking them questions.

How do they feel?

What do they think?

You need to have a team that you can trust, and from the get-go, there was just trust. You need relationships, you need the community to be able to tell the story. And even when you know the dialogue of, I don't know, oh, I don't feel, I feel uncomfortable, the trust to say I feel uncomfortable and then to be able to receive that by both parties, is, is currency.

[On screen is a film clip of Gubba – Sydney Dance Company, New Breed (2023)]

What I would say to teachers and students in seeing my works or First Nations stories is to come in with an open heart to receive the information that they're about to get, and, and allow themselves to be provoked.

If you said you liked it, why'd you like it?

Or if you didn't, why you didn't?

Oh, that's valid. And then to also receive and to be able to walk away and then to engage in conversations with each other because it's all about sharing and getting our stories out there.

I feel like when, if there's any First Nations content that is being taught in school, I personally think if the teacher isn't First Nations, then they need to bring somebody in. They need a cultural consultant.

My Auntie Lyn was telling me a story where she, a student of hers was, wanted to do a traditional, like Aboriginal dances and use clap sticks, but you can't do that. Right, you need to, if that's something that you want to teach, then you have to bring, you have to find the resources to bring, that has to, that has to be a First Nations person.

I think what would help teachers in school is to build in a relationship with their AEA or an anybody who was First Nations in that school.

And how you can do that is by simply just asking them if they want to have a cup of tea. How do you build those relationships, you know, not through, you know, using technology. Like this face-on-face relationship is really important and integral.

I think it's really important for teachers to, to have an understanding of how complex First Nations Australia is.

There's over 260 nations, so it's really important to engage with the community that you are in and to build those relationships, those foundations, the imprint of that.

If you do that from the very beginning, it's going to make your teachings much more easier. You will access much more easily by building those trust with the community that you are in.

You've got to think that the, they have to put in a lot of hard work because there's a lot of, there's a lot of systemic trauma that has been passed down that we as Black people sometimes don't even understand why we're carrying that, but it's just been passed down from generation to generation. And so you have to put in the hard work to be able to open that, you know, peel back those layers, build that trust, and that just takes time and persistence.

[Text on screen: Additional footage provided by

Bangarra Dance Theatre

Sydney Dance Company]

[Text on screen: BENNELONG (2018)

Choreographer Stephen Page

Composer Steve Francis

Set Design Jacob Nash

Lighting Design Nick Schlieper

Costume Design Jenny Irwin

Dramaturg Alana Valentine

Cultural Consultant Matthew Doyle]

[Text on screen: WUDJANG: Not the Past (2022)

Director/Co-writer/Choreographer Stephen Page

Co-writer Alana Valentine

Set Designer Jacob Nash

Composer Steve Francis

Costume Designer Jenny Irwin

Lighting Designer Nick Schlieper

Assistant Director Kate Dunn

Music Director Alan John

Associate Music Director/Musician Veronique Serret

Vocal Coach Leith McPherson

Language Consultant Donna Page

Actors Elaine Crombie, Jess Hitchcoc, Elma Kris, Kirk Page, Justin Smith

Musicians Brendan Boney, Amaru Derwent, Tess Nuku

Featuring dancers of Bangarra Dance Theatre]

[Text on screen: MIYAGAN (2016)

Choreography Beau Dean Riley Smith and Daniel Riley

Music Paul Mac

Set Design Jacob Nash

Costume Design Jennifer Irwin

Lighting Design Matt Cox

Cultural Consultant Diane McNaboe, Lynette Riley]

[Text on screen: GUBBA (2023)

Choreographer Beau Dean Riley Smith

Composer & Sound Designer Brendon Boney

Music Jeff Wayne’s Musical Version of ‘The War of the Worlds’ and ‘Breathe’ by The Prodigy

Set & Costume Designer Aleisa Jelbart

Lighting Designer Alexander Berlage

Film Pedro Greig]

[Text on screen: With special thanks to Beau Dean Riley Smith,

Bangarra Dance Theatre and Sydney Dance Company]

[Text on screen: NSW Department of Education:

Aboriginal Education and Communities

Secondary Curriculum – Creative Arts]

[Text on screen: Filmed and edited Andrew Piper

Producer Carolyn Hammer

Production Manager Emily Murphy-O'Neill

Production Assistant Gemma El Kazzi

Filming on Gadigal Country, Harrold Park Community Hall, Sydney]

[End of transcript]

[Text on screen: We Acknowledge Country and recognise the lands, skies and waterways of where our schools and workplaces are located. We pay respect to Elders past and present as ongoing leaders and teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories, and acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that contributed to the development of this film.]

[Text on screen: We advise this resource may contain images, voices or names of deceased persons in photographs, film, audio recordings or historical content.

In this film, terms including First Nations and Indigenous are used throughout. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred.]

Andrea James

[Andrea James sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

My name is Andrea James.

I'm a Yorta Yorta / Gunaikurnai woman.

I'm a theatremaker, writer, director, sometimes producer of theatre. I grew up on my father grandfather's Yorta Yorta Country and occasionally visit my grandmother's Gunaikurnai Country. And I currently live and work on Gadigal land.

[Cuts away to a montage of still photographs from performances of Sunshine Super Girl – Performing lines (2022), swim – Griffin Theatre Company (2024), and Yanagai! Yanagai! – Melbourne Workers Theatre in association with Playbox (2003)]

Yes, in writing Yanagai! Yanagai!, I drew upon my family experiences growing up. You know, sitting around the kitchen table, listening to all the yarns, listening to who's related to who and how. I mean, they're some of my greatest memories listening to stories.

And so really, you know, I was really attracted to storytelling from a very young age, and also to theatre from a really young age as well. And I think that also one of the main sounds that came up and out of our kitchen table was laughter, actually, laughter too, that you know, my family, my grandparents talked a lot about struggle, but also there was a lot of laughter through that struggle as well.

So, yeah, when writing Yanagai! Yanagai!, I was in my early years at Victorian College of the Arts and Yorta Yorta people were right in the midst of the pre-court hearings of the Native Title claim. And, yeah, a bit of an accidental playwright, actually. I didn't really mean to write a play, but a lot of the things that were being said in the media about the land claim and, the five-point plan and Wik was really counter to what I could see my people and my Elders were experiencing through that process.

[On screen is a series of still photographs of performers in Yanagai! Yanagi! – Melbourne Workers Theatre in association with Playbox (2003)]

And then of course, when Judge Olney, you know, came down and said that our right to Native Title rights was, you know, washed away by the tide of history, my pen was already on the paper. So yeah, in a lot of ways, I'm an accidental playwright.

And I just knew that what I wanted to do and show was to use theatre to demonstrate our connection to Country. And so that really was about talking to Elders, talking to as many Yorta Yorta people about what their connection to country was, and through that came the play Yanagai! Yanagai!

[On screen is a series of still photographs of performers in Yanagai! Yanagi! – Melbourne Workers Theatre in association with Playbox (2003)]

I've had the great opportunity and privilege of dramatising a few Aboriginal leaders and icons now, the story of the wonderful Evonne Goolagong Cawley.

[Cuts away to a film clip of a performance of Sunshine Super Girl – Performing Lines (2020)]

Performance

This is a good spot here. This is mum's spot.

You see that current there, swirling around and around? That's the backwater, full of leaves and twigs and bugs. That's what the fish are after, and that's what I'm after, the fish.

[End of film clip]

Andrea James

I think that one of my biggest passions, the reason why I am into theatre and live performance is I just want to see more Aboriginal faces and stories on stage. And in many ways, they're my Elder, so I have to respect that Elder. And at the same time, I have to bring my own area of expertise. So, they'll have their area of expertise, which  Evonne did an incredible world-winning tennis champion. But I'm a theatre expert as well. So, you know, it's about gaining trust of the person whose story that you're going to tell.

[On screen is a series of still photographs of a performance of Sunshine Super Girl – Performing Lines (2020), and of Evonne Goolagong Cawley working with the cast in rehearsals for Sunshine Super Girl (2022)]

And obviously when you're talking about stories about people who have passed, you have to, you know, speak really sensitively to the living relatives and people who share the bloodline with that person as well. So yeah, you have to, you have to be really mindful of the moments that you're going to dramatize but also, to keep reminding the person and the relatives that it's, that it's theatre and it may not look or feel exactly how you felt it in, in real life.

[Cuts away to a film clip of a performance of Sunshine Super Girl – Performing Lines (2020)]

Performance

Evonne, come out here, check this out.

And out the back of our outdoor dunny is the Barellan War Memorial Tennis Club courts. Right out the back. Next to our backyard.

[End of film clip]

Andrea James:

I think if you go into it with the right spirit, which is, you know, I want to honour and respect, you know, and platform that person's legacy and experience, and then transfer that to a group of people, actors, and designers, who will also interpret that person's story. So, you know, many hands will touch that story before people see it performed live on stage as well. So you know, it's such a collaborative art form, you know?

So even how I approach it as a writer will be different than to how I approach it as a director, and then how the actors are going to interpret the work and the nuance in the language and the way they move their body. You know, it's, it's all up for interpretation.

[On screen is a series of still photographs of performance and rehearsals from Sunshine Super Girl – Performing Lines (2020)]

But at the same time, we try to be as truthful, you know, as integral to that person and their story. And, you know, connecting to their Country and their cultural place is just vital. You know, every time I tell a person's story or I'm in partnership with people to tell a story, you know, it's really important that I go to that Country, you know, and I speak as many people from that Country who know that person.

You know, we have to let Country speak to us because that's what's brought that person up, you know, and their community around them. So, you know, I can't do that without, you know, walking on Country, without speaking to the people from that Country.

And then hopefully in turn that'll be transferred to the page and then transferred into, you know, the design concepts and the, ultimately the performances as well.

[On screen is a series of photographs of Andrea James working on Country – Sammy Butcher talking with the Big Name, No Blankets teams at Warumpi Hill, Papunya (2023), Andrea James on artist residency at Bung Yarnda, Krauatungalung Country (2024), Creative Development, Big Name, No Blankets creative team, Papunya (2023)]

For theatremakers, time is such a pressing thing. You know, you get four weeks to rehearse a show, and then you're up. And you know, for a lot of Aboriginal people, you know, we often talk about this concept of timelessness, of Dreaming, you know, that we have a real different relationship with time.

So we are kind of looking at this constant tension, you know, where we're trying to portray these massive concepts of Dreaming and creation, but also for us, you know, we are always referring to the past, to the connections, to the past, and to connections to Dreaming and ceremony and creation.

You know, so for us, there really isn't a difference between past and present because they both live in us together.

[On screen is a film clip of the landscape from Andrea James’ artist residency at Bung Yarnda, Krauatungalung Country (2024), and a still photograph from Griffin Theatre creative development, swim creative team, Yugambeh Country (2024)]

You know, we can't walk, you know, on this Country and talk and be without referring to our Elders and ancestors and people that have come before us, you know, so theatre is a really perfect vehicle for that.

You know, I often write in a magic realist form because that helps, really helps to draw out those kinds of concepts where you can look back in the past, and you can have dream sequences.

[On screen is a series of still photographs from a performance of swim , written by Ellen van Neervan, Performed by Dani Sibosado, Directed by Andrea James, Griffin Theatre at Carriageworks (2024)]

Then of course when you're on the stage, you know, you've got, you know, this whole breadth of story, this whole concepts of time and timelessness that you need to capture within a one and a half hour to two-hour timeframe where the audience will be with you, living that experience with you as well.

[On screen is a series of still photographs from Winyanboga Yurringa Belvoir Theatre, Dalara Williams, Angeline Penrith, Dubs Yunupingu and Tasma Walton (2019) and Winyanboga Yurringa Moogahlin Performing Arts, Tessa Rose and Angeline Penrith (2016)]

Theatre is very much a collaborative art form. You know, as a writer you spend a little bit of time on your own, but it doesn't really start to take flight until you get around a table and you start to hear it read, you know, by actors. And that's where it really starts to, to live, not only in your own head but in other people's creative spheres as well.

[On screen is a series of film clips of swim rehearsals (2024)]

Yeah, I love the collaborative nature of theatre and it suits Aboriginal stories really well. Like, you know, we're a communal collaborative people. It's not about the individual, and so I really love that about Aboriginal theatre and how it serves our community.

You know, I don't like to work from a top-down way as a director. I think that, you know, we are all on the same ground together. We're all trying to do the same thing.

[On screen is a still photograph of Andrea James from swim rehearsals (2024)]

If I had one word of advice for, for aspiring theatremakers, would be, you know, it's really exciting to be a part of the cultural fabric of Australia and Australian storytelling for stage, and Aboriginal stories are a really vital part of that picture, of that fabric.

You have to have, you know, a real, a love and a really great intention for the work, and you need to have respect and you need to honour and respect protocols so that you can make a work that's really true to this country, but also true to all of the Aboriginal nations from around Australia and I think that theatre, you know, really has something great to offer that space.

[On screen is a series of film clips from Sunshine Super Girl – Performing Lines (2020)]

And I think there's always going to be, you know, an inspiration for Aboriginal storytelling on stage and it will never end.

It will be a continuum, as it is always has been on Country.

[Text on screen: YANAGAI! YANAGAI! (2003)

Playwright/Director Andrea James

Cast David Adamson, Lou Bennett, Liza Maza

Tony Briggs, Bryan Andy

Composer Peter Lawler, Tim Prince, Lou Bennett

Dramaturg Patricia Cornelius

Lighting Designer Philip Lethlean

Sound Designer David Franzke

Designer Adrienne Chisholm

Puppet Maker Phillip Millar

Puppetry Consultant Sarah Kriegler

Mechanist Osman Salih

Costume Co-Ordinator Amanda Banks

Stage Manager Natasha Marich]

[Text on screen: SUNCHINE SUPER GIRL (2020)

Creator & Director Andrea James

Movement Director & Additional Choreography Katina Olsen

Original Choreographic Concept & Initial Movement Direction Vicki Van Hout

Composition & Sound Design Gail Priest

Lighting Design Karen Norris

Set & Costume Design Romanie Harper

Dramaturg Louise Gough

Mentor Paige Rattray

Video Media Design Mic Gruchy

Production Manager Jason Thelwell

Produced by Performing Lines]

[Text on screen: swim (2024)

Director Andrea James

Movement Director Kirk Page

Designer Romanie Harper

Lighting Designer Karen Norris

Composer & Sound Designer Brendon Boney

Video Designer Samuel James

Cultural Consultant Aunty Jenny Fraser

Cultural Consultant Lann Levinge

Cultural Consultant Aunty Maria van Neerven

Gender & Inclusivity Consultant Bayley Turner

Stage Manager Isabella Kerdijk

Production Manager Damion Holling

Senior Producer Elinor King

Associate Producer Paris Mordecai with Sandy Greenwood, Dani Sib

Workshop Dramaturg Bryan Andy

Workshop Choreographer Yolande Brown

Workshop Performer Hannah Donnelly]

[Text on screen: Yanagai! Yanagai!: Photo by Ponch Hawkes

Sunshine Super Girl: footage supplied by Performing Lines

Photos by Paz Tassone, Luke Currie-Richardson,

Brett Boardman, Jamie James

swim: Original book by Ellen van Neerven, directed by

Andrea James, Griffin Theatre 2024. Footage supplied by

Griffin Theatre

Closer music: Soundstripe.com]

[Text on screen: With special thanks to Andrea James]

[Text on screen: NSW Department of Education:

Aboriginal Education and Communities

Secondary Curriculum – Creative Arts]

[Text on screen: Filmed and edited Andrew Piper

Producer Carolyn Hammer

Production Manager Emily Murphy-O'Neill

Production Assistant Gemma El Kazzi

Filming on Gadigal Country, Carriageworks, Sydney]

[End of transcript]

[Text on screen: We Acknowledge Country and recognise the lands, skies and waterways of where our schools and workplaces are located. We pay respect to Elders past and present as ongoing leaders and teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories, and acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that contributed to the development of this film.]

[Text on screen: We advise this resource may contain images, voices or names of deceased persons in photographs, film, audio recordings or historical content.

In this film, terms including First Nations and Indigenous are used throughout. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred.]

DOBBY

[DOBBY sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

Being on Gadigal country, I'd just like to bring some Murrawarri language here.

[SPEAKING IN MURRAWARRI]

80,000 years to the land. 80,000 years to the sky. Always was, always will be.

My name is Rhyan Clapham. I'm a proud Filipino and Murrawarri musician by the name of DOBBY. Filipino on my mother's side from Tacloban, 1985. And on my father's side, Murrawarri.

My grandmother was born and raised in Brewarrina, Ngemba Country, north-west New South Wales. Her father, my great-grandfather, was born under the birthing tree on the Culgoa River, in Weilmoringle and Murrawarri Country.

So that's me, and my passion for music started when I was quite young, my mum strongly suggested that I learn piano. I was about seven years old, got into piano lessons, and all the while I just got so interested in hip-hop around that age. You know, Lupe Fiasco, Missy Elliott, The Pharcyde, Eminem, MF Doom, Snoop Dogg, you know, Ice Cube, Beyoncé, Destiny's Child.

So, yeah, that was kind of my upbringing. And then being a jazz drummer and a rapper, I call myself a drapper.

[Cuts away to a film clip of DOBBY performing ‘Matter of Time’]

Murray-Darling basin, never quit, never fade 'til we vote them out today. I'm a fighter in my blood, this is in my DNA. My ancestors speaking through me, I'm connected to this place, like the river I got Murrawarri flowing through my veins.

[End of film clip]

DOBBY

[DOBBY sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

It means a great deal and it's a big privilege for me to be able to share everything on that album and in my music generally, you know, with audiences.

Very much knowing that it's not just Aboriginal people listening to my music. It's non-Indigenous people, it's people of colour, it's, you know, which is a beautiful privilege and a great gift of music, right? That we can, there's that element of universal appeal that I'm trying to reach as a musician, but with it, I bring my cultures, and I bring my identities and my family and the stories of my community or what I've learned, into that music. And it's, it's, it's what I love. It's what keeps me going, you know, it's what I do it for.

You know, this project, Warrangu: River Story, is filled with just lessons that I learned, throughout the river with people like Brad Steadman and other community members in the area. And what's really rewarding is when people say to me, you know, oh, I really loved this part, or I didn't know this about the Murray-Darling Basin, or, oh, I love the story of the Mundagatta. And they're using Murrawarri language and speaking to me in, in these terms.

And I'm like, this is the power of what music can do, you know? It's education.

[Cuts away to a film clip of DOBBY performing ‘Matter of Time’]

I am the treaty, I am the truth, I am the problem, I am the proof. I am the bridge. I am the line. I'm the divide between the divide. And I'm keeping the spirit of rivers alive. You're thinking it's fine. But really, it's only a matter of time.

[End of film clip]

DOBBY

[DOBBY sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

As someone who teaches a lot in schools and uses the power of hip-hop music to inform students about Aboriginal culture, or at least my Aboriginal culture, you know, I'm in a very interesting Venn diagram between the culture of hip-hop, the culture of our mob, and I guess my story, right? And there's so many interchangeable elements that really work.

[Onscreen is an image of DOBBY in a classroom working with students at Rozelle Primary School, for Busking for Change (2024)]

You know, the four elements of hip-hop being the graffiti, the DJ, the MC, and then the breakdancing, which is the exact same in hip-hop, in Aboriginal culture.

You know, it's like the graffiti is our body paint, our body ochre. You know, the breakdancing is our dancing, in corroboree and kicking up the dust to bring the rains back up to, from Baiame. You know, the song lines is our MCs, our rapping, and then the, the DJ is our music makers, you know, the didg, the yidaki, the boomerang, the clapsticks, all of that stuff. So, it's just culture.

And those two things, the fifth element of both of those cultures is knowledge. None of those things would matter if we didn't have the knowledge with which to pass those things through.

You know, so there's so much power in the platform of hip-hop music, and especially because we're in its 51st year of hip-hop music, and still to this day, I believe I'm a bit biased, but I believe it's the first, it's the most direct form of music that we still have.

You know, it reaches the youth, it reaches political realms. It helps us, you know, reclaim our language. It helps talk about ecological sustainability. The power in potential is endless, and so I just find it such a no-brainer to be able to use it to, one, teach people about Aboriginal culture, and two, give the power to the youth so that they can express their identity and their story.

[Cuts away to a film clip of DOBBY performing ‘Language Is In The Land’]

Better rivers in better states! A better livin’ a better place! Preparation of better days! Generation of better ways! Better rivers in better states! A better livin’ a better place! Preparation of better days! Generation of better ways!

[End of film clip]

DOBBY

[DOBBY sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

The advice that I would give for students and teachers to engage more in Aboriginal artists, their material and their communities, is really just that relationship that we need to build within the system for more approved artists to be able to, you know, provide their music so that teachers are more confident to be able to analyse and teach it.

You know, we, there are all too many artists that I know that are, that are ready and willing to have students learn about their stuff, you know, because the implications are bigger than just the story. It's bigger than the song. It means the family, it means the community. It means 80,000 plus years of culture. So, we're ready to share it.

You know, we should all be proud of the lands and waterways that we're on. And in order for that to happen, our system needs to catch up and we need to be able to have a better relationship with our First Nations artists and their learning materials. So that we can all learn, you know, how to care for this Country.

The advice for people listening who want to use music as their way of, you know, telling their story and expressing themselves, I would say to you is: there are no right or wrong answers. It's your story. So, if you are making music or you're writing these lines down, if it feels right to you, then that's what matters.

It's not for anybody else. This is for you to be able to tell your story in the way that makes the most sense. If you make something for somebody else, it's not going to vibrate properly. It's not going to be on the same frequency that you are living your life. So, it needs to be something that resonates properly with you, and that's the way that you're going to reach fans.

That's the way people are going to understand more about who you are. That's how you, engage art in a loving relationship.

[Cuts away to a film clip of DOBBY performing ‘Matter of Time’]

It's only a matter of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's only a matter of time.

[End of film clip]

[Text on screen: "Matter of Time" (Official Music Video), Performed by DOBBY,

Music Written and Produced by Rhyan Clapham

Courtesy ABC Music

Licensed by Australian Broadcasting Corporation]

[Text on screen: "Language Is In The Land" (Official Music Video)

Performed by DOBBY

Music Written and Produced by Rhyan Clapham

Courtesy ABC Music

Licensed by Australian Broadcasting Corporation]

[Text on screen: With special thanks to DOBBY]

[Text on screen: NSW Department of Education:

Aboriginal Education and Communities

Secondary Curriculum – Creative Arts]

[Text on screen: Filmed and edited Andrew Piper

Producer Carolyn Hammer

Production Manager Emily Murphy-O'Neill

Production Assistant Gemma El Kazzi

Filming on Gadigal Country, Church Street Studios, Sydney]

[End of transcript]

[Text on screen: We Acknowledge Country and recognise the lands, skies and waterways of where our schools and workplaces are located. We pay respect to Elders past and present as ongoing leaders and teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories, and acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that contributed to the development of this film.]

[Text on screen: We advise this resource may contain images, voices or names of deceased persons in photographs, film, audio recordings or historical content.

In this film, terms including First Nations and Indigenous are used throughout. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred.]

Blak Douglas

[Blak Douglas sitting in a chair talking to the camera]

My name is Blak Douglas.

I'm a Koori artist from New South Wales, born in Blacktown and raised in Penrith and now I'm residing on Dabee Country. And I primarily make paintings, and I focus on social justice and politics that affect First Nations peoples today in Australia.

[On screen is a film clip of Blak Douglas using a ruler and pencil to work on a painting]

My passionate interest for art originally came from observing my mother's brothers who were very famous sign writers. Sign writers were commercial artists that painted signs with a brush.

So, we had art running through our family in that, in that sense. And why I chose to honour that is because of the fact that we've lost sign writing as tradition. And I quite like the way I choose to paint because it's somewhat like sign writing. It's very, very fine and particular, and neat and symmetrical.

So, I feel that even though I've created my own style of Aboriginal art, I also am honouring my family's tradition.

[On screen is a film clip of Blak Douglas continuing to work on a painting]

As I've painted for the Archibald Prize over successive six years of being a finalist, I sought to memorialise Aboriginal people, particularly Elders who I'd known and been close to.

And I just painted big floating heads. It kind of, is a metaphor for a coin or a stamp as we have been used to seeing the monarchy represented on our currency. And I kind of dreamed, well before our Elders were placed on our notes that we would literally have memorialised specific peoples.

[On screen is a series of still photographs – Blak Douglas posing with the painting ‘White Shells, black heart’ 2019 Archibald Prize finalist of subject Esme Timbery, Blak Douglas and Maya Newell posing with the painting ‘Writing in the sand’ 2021 Archibald Prize finalist (Dujuan Hoosan), Blak Douglas and Roy Kennedy posing with the painting ‘Uncle Roy Kennedy’ 2018 Archibald Prize finalist]

And so that's why I would paint a big floating head, to memorialise in the way I felt should have been done.

And some of those examples were great contemporary artists that we live with. Uncle Roy Kennedy, deceased now. Auntie Esme Timbery, deceased. And they were particular examples that started to get me some popularity and get me some momentum within the Archibald Prize.

Most of the artists that I've painted for the Archibald Prize, I've known personally for a prolonged period. So I knew of their idiosyncrasies and their art practices, and I was fortunate to, have kind of been mentored by those particular artists.

The one exception in recent times was the incredible Dujuan Hoosan from the documentary In My Blood It Runs. And it's an incredible tale, and it was very empowering for me to meet a young, traditional healer.

The difference for me with Dujuan was that he's a tribal boy, and I got to go back on Country with him, which is literally where Albert Namatjira hailed from.

[On screen is a still photograph of Blak Douglas and sketching Dujuan Hoosan]

And that was very special for me to have a whirlwind visit to Mparntwe, Alice Springs, and to sit on Country with Dujuan and to be shown his dreaming sites and the landscape, that beautiful landscape that we all know too well in the desert.

What I found in my experience of having worked with different First Nations peoples on this continent as an artist is that it's very important to establish cultural protocols, mostly by meeting with the Elders or a council of people from particular Country, and make sure that you've ironed out things that you need to be aware of.

And, I've had good and bad examples of that.

I've had examples where I've created work with particular symbology in a mural sense that the whole public gets to see. And you have a grand opening where the mayor comes of the local town, and then all of a sudden, an Elder accosts you and says, you shouldn't have put that in there. It's a sacred story that only belongs to certain people. And only experience will learn you proper.

Trying to navigate how to create an image that pleases everybody is a difficult thing, particularly because my concepts that come from my brain are often considerably left field to the average viewer.

So, what I enjoy is trying to meet in the middle from a contemporary artist, artistic sense with a cultural-advised, informative perspective.

And that's what makes my work so exciting in that sense, and challenging.

[On screen is a series of closeup film clips of works in progress in Blak Douglas’ studio]

When working with Aboriginal Communities today and students in schools in general, I’ve found that it's very important to try as hard as you can to engage and re-immerse with the actual cultural practices of the peoples from the Country on which you are sitting at that time.

From my perspective as a contemporary Aboriginal artist, I've worked very hard to create my own style and not just copy what is an otherwise generic style of work. And I've been speaking out about that as have many of my colleagues for some years now.

It's very important for individuals to try and find out the roots of origin of their people and what was practiced on that landscape. For example, in the southeast region of Australia, a very common practice was to scar trees to create artworks within those scars on the trees, and also ceremonial grounds where mounds of earth were created for a ceremony to take place, a corroboree, if you will.

We did not particularly paint a certain style that is known to come from the desert. And that's one thing that I try to impress on students, that you can't just copy somebody else's style just because it fits the banner of being Aboriginal art.

And in my workshops with kids, I give examples of that. For example, if you google Aboriginal art, that's it, Aboriginal art in your Google search engine. Have a look at the page that comes up, and it’s all highly contemporised stuff. It's stuff that has been exploited for the tourist market over the years, over the 30 years that I've been painting, and we don't seem to be educating ourselves and trying hard enough.

And the irony is that I became very aware of that when I first began painting in 1998. And watching my colleagues in a little workshop that we had gathered in South Penrith and all of the Kooris were just painting that style on didgeridoos, on boomerangs, terracotta pots, you know, just stuff to appeal to the tourist market.

And I took myself to Papunya to sit with the last of the senior male painters, and asked and learned and why that style evolved from out there. And then I’ll come back and question these artists, you know, you're a Wonnarua. You're a Dharawal. You know, you're Darug. You guys didn't paint this stuff in the old days.

My advice to students today is to firstly, don't eat too much sugar.

Secondly, make sure you exercise. And make sure that you work hard enough until you begin to tire and only then put down your pen or your pencil, or your paintbrush.

And when it comes to appreciating Aboriginal art, pick your top seven most favourite contemporary Aboriginal artists, and make sure you learn about those artists before learning about any other style of Aboriginal art.

[Text on screen: All images supplied by Blak Douglas]

[Text on screen: With special thanks to Blak Douglas]

[Text on screen: NSW Department of Education:

Aboriginal Education and Communities

Secondary Curriculum – Creative Arts]

[Text on screen: Filmed and edited Andrew Piper

Producer Carolyn Hammer

Production Manager Emily Murphy-O'Neill

Music Soundstripe.com

Filming on Dabee Country, Rylstone NSW]

[End of transcript]

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. The Creative Arts Curriculum Team recognises the ongoing custodians of the lands and waterways where we work and live here on Darug Country and on all the lands on which you are listening today.

We pay respects to Elders past and present as ongoing teachers of knowledge, Songlines and stories. We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.

Alex Papasavvas

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education Creative Arts Curriculum team.

My name is Alex Papasavvas, and I'm a Creative Arts curriculum Advisor, 7 to 12 with the Department of Education, Secondary Curriculum, Curriculum Directorate.

Our topic for discussion today is Maliyan Mob, the Aboriginal Student Dance Group from James Fallon High School in Albury. And we're gonna hear the story of how the group was formed, what kind of Cultural Protocols were developed along the way, and some of the factors that led to the self-sustaining success of this group.

Let's welcome our guests. Here in Albury on Wiradjuri Country I'm joined by Anni Gifford and Miriam O'Rance, teachers at James Fallon High School, who have shared the responsibility of leading the school's Aboriginal Education team and the dance group, and Shanaya Quinn, an ex-student, proud young Wiradjuri and Awabakal woman and a member of Maliyan Mob from the early days.

Anni Gifford

Hello.

Miriam O'Rance

Hello.

Shanaya Quinn

Hi.

Alex Papasavvas

Joining us from Ngunnawal Country, we have Duncan Smith, OAM, and Jakida Smith from Wiradjuri Echoes, Cultural consultants that have worked with the school since 2017 to lead workshops with the dance group and with the broader student cohort.

Jakida Smith

Hello.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Hey you mob!

Alex Papasavvas

We'll be talking a lot about the story of the Maliyan Mob Dance Group today.

But before we start, I think it would be good to make sure we talk about Cultural Protocols. This isn't a new idea at all, but something that's been known and understood in Aboriginal Communities for a long, long time. So, Duncan, I'll ask you first to share some understanding before we start talking about the specifics of this project.

Can you tell us a bit about Cultural Protocols and how they inform your practice?

Duncan Smith, OAM

Yep. Always acknowledge the tribal lands and the Aboriginal peoples on which your school sits. Always seek permission and consult with local Elders and Community. Acknowledge the different tribes that the kids in your school are from, because each Culture is unique and different.

Each tribe has their own country, lore, language and Culture. For the schools, seek teachers that are, that are passionate about having Aboriginal Culture in the school. The more Elders and Community you welcome and involve into your school, the easier it will be to follow Cultural Protocols.

Aboriginal people are the only ones with the knowledge to teach Aboriginal Culture.

Alex Papasavvas

I'll begin with you Anni. Can you give us a bit of a background on the school? I know there's been an active Aboriginal Education Team there for quite a long time. And then how did the initial seed of this idea for an Aboriginal student dance group come about?

Anni Gifford

Well, James Fallon is a regional school with a really diverse student population with about, 20% of the school identifying as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander. I was the Aboriginal Education Coordinator there for about 6 years before moving into the role as head teacher of our CAPA faculty but unofficially working in that Aboriginal Education Coordinator role before that, before the role existed which I think happens at a lot of schools, since about 2009.

And our Aboriginal Education Team started at about that time too. Why a dance group? It probably, we probably need to go back to the beginning at looking at where that idea came from, that it was probably first that we identified that we had a really strong dance culture at our school and our Dance teacher, Katrina Joss, saw the need for embedding authentic Aboriginal perspectives in the Dance curriculum.

And then from there we included any interested First Nations students in the first dance workshops and we had lots of interest. Duncan and Jakida, when they came, identified that there was all this enthusiasm and all these wonderful interested First Nations students that wanted to get involved. We started talking casually about attendance issues and other challenges that we were having for a lot of those students, as particularly as those students moved through the years of high school and, Duncan was like, ‘you should use their Culture to make 'em strong and proud and, and use that as the way to engage them in school.’

Alex Papasavvas

So, let me ask you, from that initial identified need for workshop incursion for senior Dance, what did the school need to do to find out how to engage a Cultural provider that was approved or supported by the local Aboriginal Community?

Anni Gifford

We had an Aboriginal SLSO at the school, Bec Lea who was also president of the AECG.

Alex Papasavvas

Mm-hmm.

Anni Gifford

And she linked us up with an approved provider and that was Wiradjuri Echoes and the big offering that came with that, the investment that came with that was the 2018 National Multicultural Festival in Canberra.

They had federal funding that could actually make it possible for, to help us with transport and help us with accommodation, as well as coming out for that additional workshop to go through the dances again and teach them and get them up to, up to the standard where they could perform for thousands of people to go to that festival.

And I reckon that was the solidifying experience that made that group, because that was having someone of Duncan's status and knowledge coming in and saying, you kids are worth this. You are worth this level of investment. You are worth building something here. And not only do I think we can build something here, but I actually want you with me on that national stage, showing off for thousands of people. And that level of investment from someone as knowledgeable and respected as Duncan and his family made them step up. They knew that they had something that they wanted to protect too.

Alex Papasavvas

Being in the, in an Albury school community, did, did questions come up about getting Cultural consultants coming from Canberra to do those workshops with the students?

Anni Gifford

Oh, definitely. Even though we went through those Protocols of going through the AECG and using approved providers, there was more of a question early on, and to be honest, it's a completely fair question. So, while they were approved locally, the group does then enable a lot of connections with local community through their performances.

It's that slow work making those connections with local community. Then community groups reach out and other opportunities are created by that with other Wiradjuri artists and knowledge holders in the area. And I think, even though there were questions early on about ‘why are you using a Canberra based group, why aren't you going local’, by sticking around and continuing to grow the group and making those local connections, which Wiradjuri Echoes have always said is the most important thing, and I think they'll probably talk about that a bit later.

The most important thing is that then making those connections with the community that you live in, on the country that you're on, doing that then meant that those other opportunities are created, just kept strengthening the group.

And it's important to also mention that Maliyan Mob are a mixed mob group on Wiradjuri country that's home to families from a lot of different Aboriginal nations. And that's something that Uncle Duncan talks a lot to them about. They actually, they keep Wiradjuri traditions alive through Cultural practice, and this is what makes them one mob.

And they actually open their performances now by saying that they all come from different mobs. There might be  Wiradjuri, Yuin, Barkinji, Ngiyampaa, but they all come together as one on Wiradjuri country. And I think all of this is to say that it's a really complex space to be working in as a non-Aboriginal person.

And I think as non-Aboriginal people we can sometimes be too sensitive about critical feedback when you work in Cultural spaces. And it's actually a gift to have someone in Community give feedback on the work you try and facilitate, it actually means that people are invested in making it better, more truthful, meaningful. Taking the time to listen and take it on will actually just deepen the community's trust in what you're doing.

Alex Papasavvas

So, once the idea to start a student Wiradjuri dance group came up. What did you know you guys would need to do from the school to make sure that you were following the right Cultural Protocols to work with Duncan and Jakida and to have students learning, performing, and holding this Aboriginal dance repertoire.

Anni Gifford

I think the first thing I'd wanna start with is that this is an ongoing reflexive thing and we didn't know. We actually started by not knowing. We didn't know what those Protocols were and we didn't know how to navigate it, and so we needed to ask a lot of questions and be prepared to be wrong and redirected as we went.

Like first between visits Duncan passed that mentorship role onto our wonderful Rebecca Lea, who was both the president of our local AECG, and was working in our school, then, in an unofficial AEO role, the, common dynamic for a lot of Aboriginal staff across our schools, employed as an SLSO, but working beyond that role as a community liaison and support person beyond the classroom. Just something I wanna acknowledge 'cause I know that that's something that happens across a lot of people's schools, that unseen labour. And now she's officially in that AEO role finally, as she richly deserves and having someone as connected, as Bec in our school really allowed me as the coordinator to learn how to work with consultatory groups like the AECG, how to actually listen and navigate them respectfully.

And that early support from the school was through staff cover, and we had a very old 12-seater bus that was donated and that allowed them to attend Community performances at no cost and any donations we received, we used for, for performance gear. So, you could see that like, really we were developing things as we went, responding to need as it came up.

And I think like the careful consultation with Wiradjuri Echoes and I had just, the generosity of them to just keep communicating with us through the process, through the year, even if they were only coming for, one or two annual visits. We owe like, a forever debt of gratitude to that.

We developed audio tracks from live recordings of the dancers. Duncan kindly gave us permission to use these performances and this way we always had his voice leading them in language and music, and we have to be really careful about sharing these in live venues. That's probably one of the big Cultural Protocols, making sure that they delete the tracks after each use because they are his intellectual property. There's always a risk of people using them as teaching videos. Some of these dances, they, they're sacred Wiradjuri Cultural practices, and they have to be treated that way. And our students, they're taught that as part of their learning, and that's definitely something that I know that Uncle Duncan and Jakida are gonna talk about more later.

Miriam O'Rance

Early on, another Cultural Protocol that we had in place was we sought permission from Wiradjuri Echoes to be able to have students share the Boomerang dance when they go out to a variety of different events. Sometimes that's daycare, sometimes that's primary schools, and having the ability to share one of the dances that they've learned really solidifies their sense of …

Not ownership, but their sense of capacity to share something that they love and they feel passionate about and wanna protect and have the ability to share that and see it performed en masse by students, or young ones, whoever it might be. It's quite a beautiful thing that has come out of it. But always with that, we've had schools say, oh, can they, perform this dance when you are not here being very, very clear that like, no, that's not okay and that's not acceptable because we are opting and choosing to share this with you, it's not for you to have,

And being very clear with places. Then yeah, as Anni already mentioned, no, you may not have these audio tracks and no, you may not perform this afterwards when they are not here because it's actually not yours to have.

Alex Papasavvas

So, I'll come to you now Duncan and Jakida, can you tell us the story from your perspective? How was the relationship between the school and Wiradjuri Echoes established? And what Cultural Protocols were set up for, firstly the workshops and then for the dance group as it developed to learn from you and then to perform that repertoire themselves after you guys had left the school.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Yeah. Well it started, it started back in 2016 when we were invited to the school to share Cultural dances and we were pretty excited about coming down and sharing with the school these dances. And we noticed very quickly that they had a, a fairly good amount of Indigenous kids at the school, and we felt, after we'd seen them dance a little bit, decided to have a chat about what, what could we do in setting up, you know, these Aboriginal kids to start to dance and to start to form a dance group.

Which is, which is, which wasn't easy in the sense because when you go to a school just to share Culture, it's, it's quite easy because you share your Culture then you go home and nothing else is thought about it. But then when you see the passion from these Indigenous kids or Aboriginal kids, it really touches your heart so then you want to start to teach them.

And you know, sharing and teaching these two totally different things with the teaching side of things, they were told upfront that if we're going to do this, then they need to be very serious about it. They need to be very, strong in what they do, and I always put Jakida out in front of them to show that the strength you need and the level of strength you need to be able to practice your Culture properly.

Practicing, practicing your Culture, our people when I was brought up with Culture is to put yourself into it. Your whole self, your strength, your passion, and not to just, not to just do things half-heartedly, but to do it with strength and power. So, we talked with the kids about, about doing these dances and letting them know that they are thousands of years old and we talk with them about their ancestors and, and what it means to dance for your ancestors.

First and foremost is a big thing that I pushed with the kids was that you dance for your ancestors. When you dance for your ancestors, everyone will enjoy it anyways. So, yeah, so what I, what I'd seen very early on was even with the kids in the elective Dance classes, the Aboriginal kids the, the pride in their eyes that their Culture was actually being shared, but also that they got invited to be part of it.

And then when we asked them about, oh, do you wanna do some workshops just with the Indigenous kids? You know, that that pride was like, enormous with Aboriginal kids. So, they came in a little bit nervous and a little bit unsure. And we'd said, well now it's not about sharing. Now it's about teaching.

Anni Gifford

Yeah.

Duncan Smith, OAM

This is the part where I stepped in and said, this is where you start to dance for your ancestors, dance for your Elders. Dance with strength and power and not to do it half-heartedly. And that soon sorted out the ones that were very, you know, ah, this is my Culture. This is who I am. This is my identity. I wanna be part of this. And the Protocols for that, in the sense of, of Protocols for myself is that I was taught that you dance with strength, you dance for your ancestors and you dance with power all the time. If you walk off from this workshop or all these teachings and you are absolutely drained, then you know, you've put yourself and your spirit into it.

And it was quite, it was quite moving when I said to the kids, well, generally when our people prepared to dance with, with this passion and this seriousness, we have to wear our paint, we have to wear traditional paint, and we have to connect our spirit with Mother Earth, with our ancestors, and they're all excited about being painted up and taking that next step of, of their Culture.

We receive the phone call to go down there initially, and, and I thought it was, I thought it was great, but I'd been to other schools and, and set up dance groups and that passion wasn't there. There was, the kids didn't own it, the school owned it and there was things done, and they very quickly fell to pieces. Where with Albury, I felt these kids are so passionate and I have to say, you need passionate people behind them too.

So, you need, we can't just walk into any school and just say, oh, we wanna come here, we wanna do our Cultural stuff. We've first and foremost, gotta be invited there. That comes from what somebody thinking about it. The next thing is we meet these passionate people and we see it in them that they want good things to happen for these Aboriginal kids so therefore we become more passionate about it. And then we become more, more, more determined to make that work. And with the dancers, you know, in them early days they were, they were just absolutely awesome and, and they made me very proud in that sense of, of, of them taking that, my words, I said, and taking it with great strength and power and, and, and performing.

So, I've seen that passion, I've seen that power. The, the passion from Anni, originally was, was absolutely wonderful because we felt Anni was really, you know, at the forefront of pushing this forward – with the school, not with us 'cause we were there, but with the school. And then we found that Bec had come on board and, and Bec promised me and I, I give her permission to, make sure the kids in their rehearsals were turning up for rehearsals and, and dancing as strong as they're dancing in front of us.

'Cause the worst thing you want under Aboriginal Protocol is our Protocol with our dance is to teach us, go away, and then they forget, or us go away and they change something.

If these dancers are handed down thousands of years and nothing changes that way, they remain the same. If we go home and the kids decide to change something in the dance, then it, then it cuts that, thousands of years of, of history off. So, I explained that to Bec. I said, they really need to make sure they do every movement they do in front of us, that they move exactly the same way.

And I said to Bec, they need to be passionate about it. They need to do their movement spot on. And she promised me that they would and the next year I came down and they were moving spot on exactly the same. And Bec wouldn't allow them to again, get lazy halfway through the day, even when we were there, or muck around.

So, you got that reinforcement. From myself, but also a member of their community.

Anni Gifford

Yes.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Someone they looked up to and respected. So, then they became, she became that, that light of an Elder saying, ‘No, this stays the same. You have to do it like this. You can't just be there, mucking around.’ We have, we have Dreamtime stories or stories from, from the past about kids that muck up and, and don't do the right thing.

So, by sticking to these sorts of stories, you know, links it all up. And that is the, the Willy Wagtail story of the young boy that was mucking around and he had the white ochre all on his body that the Elders could only get on the front of him. And he was mucking around, mucking around, jumping over the fire.

The old men would tell him to go away because he didn't wanna listen and learn. He eventually, they told him, if you keep going, you will fall into the fire. He tripped and fell into the fire. And when he came out, he, he was the Willy Wagtail. And that's why the Willy, we believe the Willy Wagtail moves doesn't sit still because he's still mucking around.

He has the white ochre on his chest and the, the charcoal all over him. He's got the white ochre and the black all over him. But if you look at a Willy Wagtail, and I explained this to the kids when I was teaching them, that, you know, that if you watch a Willy Wagtail, he'll jump around, jump around, he won't sit still.

And now we, now for us as Wiradjuri people, he is our bird of bad news. So, some teachings that I was taught that that, just like that Willy Wagtail, if you listen and learn and listen to your Elders, then you'll learn everything about your Culture. If you wanna muck around and be silly, you know, negative things and bad things can happen because if you don't take it serious, anybody that's watching ain't gonna take it serious.

And if, if they see the kids just mucking around or, or being silly, then they're gonna think it takes away the true strength and passion of our Culture. So, for people to see it, these, they have to also feel though that was so strong and powerful, these kids are awesome because they're putting that in yeah.

Alex Papasavvas

Duncan, can I ask you about the, that dance repertoire, the music. I know that you've provided music tracks for the dancers to dance to. They're in your voice. I think some of them may even have you calling some of the movements so that the dancers hear them as they're in the performance.

Can you tell us from a Cultural Protocols perspective, what are the, permissions that you and the dancers have to agree to, about, I know you've said they have to keep all the movements the same about, you know, which dances they can take away with them and perform for people, which dances, they can bring kids from the audiences up as well to come into their performance.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Well, see the, the, the first dance is what we call Ceremonial dance. That's the sweeping and cleansing dance. You can't have anybody involved but them kids with that dance. That can't be shared in the sense of bringing anybody to join in. It's, it is a Ceremonial dance.

Most of the dances require that strength and passion and that power. But there's one, one dance that we allowed the kids to do and, and to share with community, and I don't mean Aboriginal Community, I mean community in general – daycare centres, preschools, primary schools, high schools – and that was the Boomerang dance because it's, it is what we call a Corroboree style of dance.

It's a celebrational, sort of a dance. So, you can, and it's an easier dance to do. So, I know that these kids, these Aboriginal kids are going to share that with them and they're going to do it right because there's not many, much, many mistakes you can make with that dance. Where with the other dances, if the kids are sharing it and saying, come up and do this dance, if them kids that are coming up to be a part of it get the movement wrong, then it just changes the whole dynamics of it and it disrespects Cultural Protocol of, of doing that dance to how it's meant to be done. So, allowing them to have one dance that they can share, I, I picked that dance because it's very simple and straightforward and there's not much you can get wrong with it.

Alex Papasavvas

I'll ask you too, Jakida, as a young Wiradjuri woman working for Wiradjuri Echoes with your dad coming out to the schools to deliver these workshops and teach the dancers, what's that like for you?

Jakida Smith

For me, it's culturally fulfilling. Because growing up all I've known is my Culture and all I've, all I've done is dance my whole life and I love it.

And, the one thing that I wanna teach these kids and what I've always been taught is my identity and their identity is their Culture. And learning dances and, and learning songs and, and the way I see them when they first come in, where they're not really sure about it and they're not really confident.

And then by the end of our time with them there, they are, more confident than ever. And I see them come out of their shells and I see them be proud of who they are and, and their identity. And as a younger woman, it's good to see these kids wanna take it on and keep it going for the next generation. You know, these kids, when we're there, we see them, you know, help the younger kids.

So, if they have the younger kids there, they try and help them and they really take on what we teach them.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Do you remember, do you remember when I had asked the two girls to leave? Because they were being a little bit silly and not.

Jakida Smith

Yeah.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Not putting in the power and the strength that they needed to, and I explained to them they were letting the rest of the group down.

Jakida Smith

Yes.

Duncan Smith, OAM

And then you went off and had a chat with them.

Jakida Smith

Yeah. And I, I thought to myself, you know, I remember being a kid, you know, being like that and, and you know, wanting just to be around your mates and, and going and doing what you want. But then there was also that, that Cultural thing that they promised and they wanted to be there.

And in that time was our time with them to learn their Culture. So, when they came back, we had said to them in the group, for you to come back and be part of this session, you are gonna have to dance in front of the group. And I thought. because they were young girls that they were gonna go, no, no, no. But they said they, they went straight for it and they said, ‘Yeah, we'll do it.’

We'll, we'll dance in front of the group. And the group also allowed them to do it. They had the question of, would you let the girls come back? And they agreed and said, we'll let the girls dance in front of us. And the feeling I got when those two girls got up and danced, but they didn't just dance, they danced as strong as they could in front of the group and in front of us. I couldn't be more proud of them, you know, for them to, to make a mistake and then come back...

Duncan Smith, OAM

Fix it

Jakida Smith

...and fix it and do it 10 times harder is that's all we ask, is for you to, want your Culture as much as we want to teach you.

Duncan Smith, OAM

And to be as, be as passionate as us about it.

And that, and that's the whole thing, like to be as passionate as, as us about your Culture. That's what, that's what makes us Aboriginal people saying, oh, I'm black, I'm proud, I've got black skin. Or, I'm proud, I'm Wiradjuri, if you don't put everything into your Culture and make sure that it's done properly then you are letting yourself down your community, your, your school, your family, your, your ancestors.

It's all about practicing your Culture and having that passion about it and, and making it our identity. 'Cause it's easy to say, I'm black, it's easy to say, I'm Aboriginal. It's not so easy when you're there learning it all, and you have to follow all the Protocols of that one dance that you are learning.

And that is to learn every single movement and every single chant. And you know, the reasons why we shake-a-leg, the reasons why we stomp our feet. And I explain to the kids, it's the little things that make a difference in Culture that the kids don't know about. When you ask most Aboriginal kids, why do we shake-a-leg?

They, they, they. Oh, I don't know why, why? Why do we stomp our feet? Oh, I don't know. Well, I'm going to tell you, and you have to remember, and you have to make sure that when you are stomping your feet, this is the reason why you're stomping your feet, and I told them that you stomp your feet to wake up the spirit of Mother Earth.

See when a big mob of us are dancing on, on dirt, on-Country, then we thump our feet to wake up the spirit of Mother Earth. We know she blesses us when we get the dust to go up and it settles back on our skin, we know that that Mother Earth is then acknowledging us. We called the shake-a-leg, millamurri burrubuun and that is to shake our legs like the wings of a butterfly.

So, it's even those littlest things that in Culture that are recognised like a butterfly. We hunt kangaroos, we hunt emus, but that butterfly, that little butterfly still has a massive role in our Culture because every single dance we do, there is a shake-a-leg within it. There is stomping our feet within it.

So, even when we spot the kids just walking rather than stomping, see, because the stomping of the feet creates its own beat, and if you are not stomping your feet, then the beat is missing.

If you are not walking and chanting with passion and power, the chant is missing. If you are not doing the movements to perfection, then them movements are missing.

So, when you don't put your whole self into it, then you literally are changing the dance, which changes the Protocol of your Culture. So, your Culture needs to be respected in that sense of put everything you have into it.

Jakida Smith

And that's, that's exactly right. And, things, Protocols, like when we first start and we do their face painting, the, the girls will come to me and I will paint their faces and the boys will go to Duncan. And that just shows that there's men's business so the boys will go to Dad and, and the, and the girls will come to me, and that's women's business. And throughout those sessions, the girls will come up and talk to me about things and if they're not feeling great or if they're not feeling confident about something, and within that Culture, that is men and women's business.

So, instead of them, you know, going up to Dad and talking to them about it, the girls feel like it's a woman's thing between us to talk about things and if they're not feeling too well about things. And like that day with the two girls, you know, I went up to them after and said, I'm very proud of you for doing that and to, and to do that and, and to take it on.

So, things like that and just between our little group to have men's– men's business and women's business is also a great Protocol to have.

Anni Gifford

It just makes me aware of how many of those practices are present in the students who now play that Cultural mentor role with each other. So many details because of the richness of that teaching, moving from sharing to teaching, the richness of that teaching with those days that you spend with them, it comes out in all these smaller practices, Cultural practices of care with each other.

That definitely I see young women watching you Jakida and learning how to actually play that Cultural mentorship role and then going in and, and providing that care and mentorship to their younger peers. You can see it blow down.

Jakida Smith

Yeah. And that's, and that's the thing about our Culture is that it is handed on. See, for me. I was very proud to see Shanaya be there the last time we were there.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Yes.

Jakida Smith

And really pull them in and, and, and tell everyone to listen and, and pay attention. And that to me shows that she really took on what we said and, and really took on what we did with, with their group because now she's a leader, even though she's not at the school anymore, she is a leader in our community and in our dance group.

And a lot of the kids would look up to her too now.

Duncan Smith, OAM

And that's it. I, I don't know if Shanaya even knows it, but if she's in Community and she's watching these mob dance and she's sitting back there as an adult and she goes, ‘nah.’

[laughter from all guests]

‘Get up there, back up there, and you dance stronger than what you are because you're being lazy.’

You know what I mean? So you've got Community watching the future generations to make sure that they do it properly. When we're not around, we can't control nothing when we're not around. But when you've got Community, the same as them two girls, one of them girls had a big sister in the group, and I remember, and the big sister said, you pull your head in and start doing it properly.

You know what I mean? So, it reinforces what we say and that's what this one here does. She makes me very proud because she was there that day and she was like, instantly got up and said, ‘no, that's it. You're not doing a properly do like this.’ And that's, that's, see with us taking the kids to Canberra was, was a reward thing to make 'em more passionate.

But now what you have now is, these kids go into primary schools and daycare, preschools and so on and so on, in community that when the kids come to Year 7 and say they want to be part of the group, the, the, the Aboriginal kids that have been in the group or in the group, they then take that leadership role and say, ‘no, you need to know that this stuff needs to be in order when Uncle Duncan, Jakida comes down because you'll know about it when they get here.’

They put that little bit of, not fear, but just you need to know where your, where your passion lies when they get here, yeah. And you need to have everything in order before they get here. And I think, and that's, and that's its own little Protocol within the group. These kids tell the next generations, if you wanna be part of this and you wanna be part of your Culture, you need to do it with that passion and, and the big word respect.

Alex Papasavvas

Thanks Duncan and Jakida for sharing those stories and your knowledge with us. This feels like a great place to bring you in, Shanaya, you were involved with the Wiradjuri Dance Group and then Maliyan Mob since really early on when you were in Year 7, you had a big role in its name change to Maliyan Mob as well.

First though, can you tell us about what being in the group, working with Duncan and Jakida, working with the other dancers, what did that mean to you?

Shanaya Quinn

It was great. In primary school I never did any Cultural stuff. It felt like the only Cultural thing I did was Acknowledgement of Countries at assemblies. I always wanted more connection to other Aboriginal students and to the Culture within itself.

I remember my first workshop. I had friends who were going and my older brother. That was probably the only reason I went. My dad said I should do it, otherwise I'd be in trouble, 'cause he always wanted me to be connected to Culture as well. I liked that there were kids from families that I didn't get along with, but when we danced together, it meant we clicked.

That's why I feel connected to Maliyan Mob. Now, I've got big dreams teaching Culture in schools, prisons, everywhere, anywhere. I think this has given me the confidence to get myself out there. I'd like to do what Uncle Duncan does. Culture is the thing that saves my people. It drags us away from the bad. I used to get in trouble at school and found myself in a bad position when I found bad friends. I was beefing with all my teachers, but when I was in dance or doing anything Cultural, it put me in the right track.

Miriam O'Rance

And you come in a fair bit now, and even though you're not a student anymore, you graduated last year, why do you feel that you want to come in and continue to be involved with Maliyan Mob.

Shanaya Quinn

It's just still being connected to Culture and helping out the younger generation. 'Cause I'm still so close with the kids 'cause I'm still so close with in their age.

Miriam O'Rance

Mm-hmm.

Shanaya Quinn

So they still connect with me a lot. I think I just take that role like seriously. I know that like the girls like look up to me and when I go out into the community, they're all, everyone's like, you're a part of Maliyan Mob, you're part of Maliyan Mob, you lead Maliyan Mob.

So yeah.

Alex Papasavvas

You told us before we started, Shanaya, that you remember seeing the dancers come through your primary school before you came up to high school and remembering that was one of the things that also made you feel like you wanted to get involved once you got into Year 7.

Shanaya Quinn

I saw them at one of like the main NAIDOC events and that's when my older brother was in it and I just wanted to be like my older brother and do it with him.

Alex Papasavvas

So, let's talk about the name Maliyan Mob. Where did this name come from and what was your part in that story?

Shanaya Quinn

The name come from Uncle Duncan. We, we wanted to change the name for a while. We always wanted our name to be separate from the school 'cause at times we would always just be called the James Fallon High School Dancers.

Alex Papasavvas

Yep.

Shanaya Quinn

We wanted to know that we're not just the dance group, we're a Cultural group. I used my family connection. My Uncle Tunny is my pop and I just asked him to get the name approved. He was very happy to do that 'cause he loved watching us girls dance. And then he loved watching the boys come in as well to the dance group.

He was very proud to approve that name.

Duncan Smith, OAM

And I'm sure your pop would've seen that bub, by just asking for permission to use that name. How it is exactly how, how our Protocol works. That these Elders today probably haven't seen the Cultural dancing since they were kids. And then to do that full loop and they're seeing it again now, brought back by these future generations, makes them so proud that, that course, of course, they would approve it, seeking that permission so you don't have to seek permission from all the Elders.

You just have to seek permission from a Elder in the Community. And if that Elder is a family member, then that's even better because it allows that Elder then to say, well, I'm part of this history making of Culture coming back in our communities. That's how important it is to seek permission of the Elders, because they do feel like they're part of it.

Jakida Smith

And our most important people in our lives are–

Duncan Smith, OAM

And they, yeah, and they are our most important people in our Culture is our Elders. They're everything. So I think, I think it's a great thing that, that, you know, bub seek that permission to change that name or to have that name, and now, you know, to have as part of the dance group for that longevity, forever.

I think that changed the dynamics of the group because now they could look at something that is, is part of their Culture, the, the, Wedgetail Eagle and, and, and being as strong as that Wedgetail Eagle. Soaring as high as that, Wedgetail Eagle.

Miriam O'Rance

Mm-hmm.

Duncan Smith, OAM

So, they were the meanings behind picking that name. It wasn't just randomly picked, oh, let's just be the Wedgetail Eagles. We looked at the strength of the eagle. We looked at, at how high the eagle can soar, in that sense that the Maliyan Mob will rise and, and rise above everything and continue, um, into the future.

But it was mainly about that strength of this dance group.

Alex Papasavvas

So, we've heard, about how the group was formed, and we've heard a bit about how it grew and changed to its current form. I wanna ask you, Anni and Miriam, as the teachers in the school, about what you feel were some of the real success factors in supporting growth and continuity for this dance group.

It's been active for a few years now. It'll be 10 years next year. The older students involved now would've still been in primary school when the group was formed. I'm interested in hearing about what kind of Protocols and structures were, were put in place to safeguard continuity and what led to the current state of the dance group as this self-sustaining entity with financial independence and a lot of student agency and leadership.

Anni Gifford

Well, their local Elders were their foundational strength from the start. Their Elders were the champions, and that has made all the difference. Auntie Edna Stewart and Uncle Tunny Murray have always been so generous with their time and advice, often linking the group up with really different cool opportunities. And it's quite moving really, to think about all they've done for the group over the last, almost decade.

Auntie Nancy Rooke was also a big supporter of the group in the early days, who sadly passed away now, but whose beautiful words of encouragement still stay with us. When there were questions about what this was and how it was all gonna work, their Elders built them up every time they got up and performed, they told them how proud they were and they told them what it meant to them to see them up there dancing for their ancestors. And that's happened across this whole journey and has never stopped.

The way that all of them have invested in. And really there's countless people, so too many people to actually acknowledge the way that the community here has lifted these guys up and told them how proud they are and actually become advocates and protectors of it as well. Incredibly moving, and that pride then, the older kids take to the younger guys when they come through that. I think that that's been the thing for continuity.

Miriam O'Rance

Definitely. So, we are very fortunate that we are requested every single year to go to our feeder schools. We have quite a beautiful ongoing tradition now of older students performing in front of their youngest siblings at the feeder schools.

Who then get up to dance with them. We had this NAIDOC, a really beautiful moment where family had danced at one of our feeder schools where their sibling goes, and then at our NAIDOC assembly, when they were present in the audience, they actually got up and danced with Maliyan Mob. So it's quite embedded in these schools.

It's almost like a rite of passage that, you have seen Maliyan Mob dance, you've learnt one of the dances by the time you even get to to high school. And then when you go into those intensive workshops, you already feel a sense of like acceptance. You already feel a sense of being welcomed. And the older kids really take the younger kids under their arm and they hold them so accountable for everything.

And because the older kids take it so seriously, the younger kids are ingrained from the get-go that this is actually a very serious thing. We take it seriously, we take care of it, and we really safeguard it for the future. And they uphold those incredibly high expectations and standards that Duncan and Jakida give to them on those intensives throughout the rest of the whole entire year.

And they take it seriously and that allows it to grow and to build.

Anni Gifford

I think that is the strength in this model is the continuity of having Wiradjuri Echoes come back every year. It almost feels like a, like a fuel.

Miriam O'Rance

Yeah.

Anni Gifford

Do you know what I mean? Like they get fuelled up and then they last, they can last for the year, but it always feels like things are running low when you guys get there, and then they're all topped up when you leave.

And a quick shout out to the two James Fallon alumni now studying at NAISDA with others in the pipeline ready to audition. Really shows that it's a passion and skill that takes these guys far beyond the school and that really their own dreams are the only limit to where they wanna go from here.

Our job has sort of become putting some boundaries in place to protect those guys because they've become really requested in the community and that can, I think sometimes that esteem they're held in means that people don't, don't remember that they're kids. They don't remember that they're young people that are really doing this out of, out of their own enthusiasm and love for their Culture, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a limit.

So, NAIDOC is always very full on, and we make sure that after NAIDOC, when they might have 15 performances over the 2 weeks. That afterwards, they have a bit of downtime, and they have some rewards in place for the money that they're actually bringing in through donations, which is probably the next thing to talk about.

Miriam O'Rance

Definitely. I think we've already touched on the fact that funding, grants are very transient. Sometimes they're there and sometimes they are not. And something that I was unequivocally aware of when I stepped into co-ordinating while um, Anni was on maternity leave was that very fact of, okay, you have something that you can see is thriving, it is flourishing, it is having such a phenomenal positive impact on students.

I am concerned as someone who understands the department, and I understand funding sometimes it's not always there. We need to safeguard and we need to protect this from a financial point of view because if you get another principal in who is not as supportive as ours is, and it comes out of the school's budget, it can be cut.

And we absolutely do not want that to be the case. So, we have now, been very, in a very fortunate position where the community recognises the fact that these are students, they recognise the work of these students, and they want to make donations to continue to be sustainable and the way that that you make it sustainable is to be self-sufficient financially, because then it's untouchable.

And it's embedded in the school in a way where principals can come and go. Grants can come and go, but they are sustaining themselves, so they won't come and go, it will be actually a program that transcends time because you're not relying on the department, you're not relying on someone else's budget.

You are requiring and relying on the generosity of people who invite Maliyan Mob to perform, but the people that invite Maliyan Mob to perform value them. So, they are willing to give those donations, and those donations mean that students can receive things such as the hoodies and the t-shirts with Duncan's beautiful design on the back, which have Jakida's handprints when she was a little bub.

Anni Gifford

So beautiful.

Miriam O'Rance

You have that legacy and it's lovely when the kids go out. I saw Shanaya at the footy last weekend. She's not even at school anymore, and she has Maliyan Mob jumper on.

Anni Gifford

Mm-hmm. So, we had people wanting to be generous from early on, but no way of taking their money because they, they needed particular invoices or, or receipts to acquit their own expenses on their end.

Because as we know, every institution has their own set of financial rules and processes. School Bytes, which I know that a lot of schools have now is a really valuable tool for that because people with just a link can make a direct donation and receive a receipt for that, and that has been a game changer for us.

Alex Papasavvas

Yeah, and I remember you guys saying before, you know, you are more like the facilitators here of a group that's very much, owned, run by the students. What does that look like when you're doing it on the ground?

Anni Gifford

I think what that looks like is Protocols and processes that are actually set by the group themselves.

I think it is difficult in hierarchies like a school because we are positioned in relation to the students as the experts, and we're positioned in relationship to the students as the bosses of things. And this can't be a space where that is true because otherwise you've got two non-Aboriginal people being the bosses in a Cultural group.

It has all the hallmarks of practices long, hopefully gone –

Miriam O'Rance

Yeah.

Anni Gifford

– and in the past. So, we have no interest in that kind of in interfering in the Cultural mentorship. That is something that Wiradjuri Echoes do, and that's something that the group does for themselves. And Miriam, developed some Protocols and processes through a student contract.

Miriam O'Rance

Absolutely. They want to hold each other accountable because they have these high expectations of upholding everything that the two of you teach them when you come down for the intensives. And then our sort of job is to manage those things behind the scenes as well as being the mouthpiece for students if they've…

We had an incident where they did a performance within the community. They weren't happy. So they should and absolutely do feel comfortable coming and speaking to us and saying, we want something to be done about this, allowing us to advocate for them.

Anni Gifford

Mm-hmm.

Miriam O'Rance

If you are asking these kids to dance, you've gotta have certain things there for them.

You need to make sure that you are protecting their Cultural safety because those aren't necessarily things that the kids are confident to do, but we need to, that's sort of our, our role. We advocate for them, but they completely run themselves. And you said it before when we were talking about this. We drive a bus.

Yeah. We supervise, we make sure everyone is safe.

Anni Gifford

We handle all the departmental policy and making things sure that things are compliant from that level so that the students can run the Cultural program themselves with the Cultural mentorship of their amazing Wiradjuri Echoes team. And in terms of any spend with their money, I'm certainly not the one out there dancing.

Miriam O'Rance

No.

Anni Gifford

So I don't know why I should decide what happens with their money. A proposal is made, a vote is taken. Before any spend is done.

Miriam O'Rance

Yep.

Anni Gifford

With the group. And if the group, they show up for those meetings and they take those decisions very seriously.

Miriam O'Rance

Absolutely. 100%. Given that they are receiving donations, we have a 100% transparency, approach to it. So, I would say that to any, if any teachers do something like this, you have to be really comfortable about maybe having conversations that you normally wouldn't have with students, because actually it's theirs and it's not ours.

We just make sure that it can operate. So, we do have to have conversations with them about where will you perform, what types of expectations do you have with other students? How do you want your money spent? And making sure that you are comfortable, I guess, pushing boundaries.

Alex Papasavvas

Mm. Yeah. It really is like that expanded bus driver role, isn't it?

But the bus is like the structures that have to be in place for a student dance group to exist. You are up there pushing the accelerator and get them to where they need to go.

Anni Gifford

Yeah.

Miriam O'Rance

Yeah.

Alex Papasavvas

Um. That's really lovely.

Duncan Smith, OAM

They're, they're a bit like the backseat driver, but I, I, yeah. I think that's beautiful.

Alex Papasavvas

Yeah.

So, just moving to the end of our discussion now, I asked you to all think about some final thoughts or reflections. So, what were some of the big lessons learned throughout this project? What advice can you offer for Creative Arts teachers or any other teacher listening who are interested in doing this kind of work, collaborating with Aboriginal students and Community on long-term projects. We'll go to you first, Anni.

Anni Gifford

I think if you're gonna do this, you have to be prepared to work through it slowly and just always remember that as a non-Aboriginal person you are working as facilitators and advocates, but you are not Knowledge Holders or Cultural Practitioners, and it's very important to remind yourself of that role. And take the time that it needs so that it happens right in connection with your local community ‘cause then you have something that will last.

And while this is our story, it can't be a roadmap, it has to be different in every context. But there are some things that can be common. You know, collaborating with Community. Student agency. Setting Protocols. Taking it slowly until you have to do it fast.

Yeah. Which is, I think, an important thing too. Like the idea that it is slow. Then taking the opportunities when they come up and moving fast with those when they come up, and then being okay with it ebbing and flowing. Because I think that sometimes in the department, we're not great at that. We expect things to happen on our own timeline, and that way they're not real and authentic, and they only last as long as that timeline's around.

And finally, if you get some feedback, or you get a ‘no’ from the local community, look at what that's telling you 'cause that can be a gift. It might seem like a setback, but it actually might just put you on the right path.

Alex Papasavvas

Yeah, lovely. What do you think, Miriam?

Miriam O'Rance

I think in anything like this, it's really important that students are the ones who are leading it, that it is their voice, and then that means that, as a non-Aboriginal woman, I have to feel quite comfortable being the one to have difficult conversations, advocating for the students, and if you are someone who's not willing to have those conversations, if you are not willing to navigate your way through sometimes complex department policies, if you are not willing to learn and take on the feedback that you get from the community, if you are not there to listen and to hear, then you're probably not the right person to be in these roles.

Alex Papasavvas

And Jakida, what do you think?

Jakida Smith

For me as, as an Aboriginal woman, I, my role is to make sure these kids have their sense of identity and their sense of Culture and and community, and to keep them at that standard. For me to be, you know, born into my Culture and to now want to share and help these kids, you know, learn their Culture, I also have a sense of responsibility for them. And, and to help them know their identity and have that sense of strongness inside of them and when they go out and they have that confidence to perform in front of other schools and communities, that is that sense of identity for them.

Alex Papasavvas

Yeah. Thank you. And Duncan, some final thoughts from you.

Duncan Smith, OAM

I, I honestly believe governments could take, uh, take a page out of the Maliyan Mob book because self-determination, uh, is what Aboriginal people have been calling for the last hundred year or more, to be self-determined, self, self-managed. In that sense of we have a, we have a voice, we just need you to listen.

We need to take ownership of our own destiny and guide ourselves through life with the help of others. And to me, there's such a stigma on, oh, American rap and American dance and American this and American that in our communities are unbelievable. How our kids think that, oh, this is a great thing to cling onto.

But then when you hand them their Culture, and they see their Culture is something so unique that nobody else has got it, they start to feel that pride and that and that energy and that, you know, that respect for themselves and the Elders and the, their community that what we're doing now with the Maliyan Mob and with James Fallon School is such a foundation for all schools to follow and to show that self-determination is, is the key to everything for Aboriginal people.

Because we're always being told what to do and how to do it. And when we get to be self-determined and, and proud of who we are and start to build these kids up, they start to get that level of respect. There's been endless, you know, endless things that, that schools and and government have come up with to say, this is best for Aboriginal people.

You know, what's best for Aboriginal kids? Aboriginal Culture. Their connection, their belonging, their uh, identity is way, way more massive than I think we all realize also how that when you hand them that leadership role, how they stand up and when they see Elders in Community and younger generations being proud of who they are and saying, I want to do that, is something that for me, that longevity, it will last forever.

The Culture's been there for thousands of years. We just need to give it back to our kids. Allow them to take leadership on it, allow them to have that self-determination, and you'll have better students in your schools with Indigenous kids, you'll have them attending a school more often because they'll feel like their school is acknowledging who they are, and acknowledging their identity. And, you know, they, they will want to be at school because of that.

Alex Papasavvas

Really lovely. Thank you. Thank you so much to you, Duncan and Jakida.

Duncan Smith, OAM

Thank you.

Alex Papasavvas

Anni, Miriam, and Shanaya.

Anni Gifford

Thank you.

Miriam O'Rance

Thank you.

Alex Papasavvas

Thank you for joining us today to tell the story of Maliyan Mob. It's been wonderful to hear each of your perspectives on the way that the collaboration and relationships have developed over time, how you communicated and developed Cultural Protocols throughout the whole engagement.

If you wanna find out more about Maliyan Mob, their success is regularly shared on the James Fallon High School Facebook page.

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum in the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email  Jane McDavitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Advisor, Alex Manton.

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