Kyra Rose

Welcome to 'In Conversation With Writers', the podcast where we dive into the minds of writers and explore their ideas and processes.

Our guest today is author and journalist, Trent Dalton. His work includes the novels,

Boy Follows Universe, All our Shimmering Skies and Lola in the Mirror; and the nonfiction By the Sea and Stars, the Story of the First Fleet, as well as many journalistic pieces.

Today, we'll be discussing 'Dear Kath', the first piece in the 2021 Collection Love Stories.

Trent, welcome and thank you for joining us today.

Trent Dalton

What an honour to be with you, Kyra. Thanks so much for having me.

Kyra Rose

We're here to have a chat about the first of the 'Dear Kath' letters. So, these letters to Kath frame the collection of Love Stories.

How does this first one establish the concerns of the Love Stories collection as a whole, and why was it the gift of her Olivetti typewriter that prompted you to seek out these stories from strangers?

Trent Dalton

Oh well, it's a, it's a love story in itself.

I wanted to start that book with a love story and there was no better kind of tribute than, that, that piece actually writing a letter to the woman who wrote me letters, that's what I was trying to do.

This incredible woman, when I was starting out as a journalist in my local metro newspaper called The Courier Mail, I'd have this little pod that I sat with a bunch of other journos, and I'd receive these letters, just from readers often. And every now and then I'd open up a letter that was typed in this wonderful 1970s Olivetti type font, typewriter font.

So, you know, classic typewriter font. It's a beautiful thing just to look at. You don't see it much, you know, proper inked, typewriter font, and, and I would open these letters and it was from this woman named Kath Kelly. And Kath Kelly was my best friend, Greg Kelly's mum and Kath, this is like mid two thousands.

She would write things such as "Trent, I read that piece on the weekend, keep going, like keep going deeper. Like open your heart up even more." Like, she was really a deep woman. She was a cantankerous, feisty, beautiful, wondrous Irish Catholic woman who fought for women's rights, fought for First Nations rights, fought for the rights of women to wear hats in church, wrote letters to Popes, wrote letters to school principals on this Olivetti typewriter, and something she wrote to me was encouragement.

Just inspiration and, and just, she, she would kind of say things in these letters that I would put up on my pod wall, you know, you have those dividers in a big sort of room of office space. I'd put these Olivetti letters up on my wall just with a tack and, and, and I never forget just sort of looking at these whenever I'd be sort of stuck or down or whatever, and just go, all right, let's get back to it.

Kath kind of believes in what I'm doing. I'll keep going. And anyway, this beautiful woman, Kyra, she, she died on Christmas Day, 2020 in the peak of Covid and we were at the back of her funeral ceremony. We were in the carpark. I was talking to her son Greg. We were drinking these Four X gold beers that Kath insisted that we all drink.

It was one of her deathbed requests. There were like 30 cans of beer in her downstairs fridge before she was taken by the ambulance to the hospital and she insisted, "Make sure you all sort of just go out into this car park and have these beers," and we're like, more than willing to do that, Kath. No worries.

And and I was just talking to Greg quietly and I just mentioned to him like, "Mate, you know, she meant the world to me and she used to send me these letters that, that kind of really led to me or encouraged me to go deeper in terms of my writing." What I'm trying to say is, it was a massive step for me to jump from journalism into fiction writing.

That was a really scary leap for me, and it was absolutely letters like Kath's that helped me make that leap. And I was trying to explain this to Greg and I said I, and I said to him, I don't think I would've done the thing that absolutely changed my life, which was writing this book called Boy Swallows Universe, which is my life, all about my kind of life in the 1980s with my mum and prison and losing people and, and drug addiction and all sorts of really tough stuff that I just needed to kind of, these rocks that I was carrying inside me. I kind of coughed them up for that book and Kath was a big sort of help in kind of giving me the confidence to do that. And I was trying to explain all this to Greg and he goes, "Oh, well mate, wait till you see this."

And he leans into the back of his Subaru where he was keeping the beers, and he pulled out this sky blue Olivetti typewriter, and he handed it to me and and he said, "It was one of Mum's other requests that, that you get the typewriter", that, that, that the, that her, her best friend, you know, one of her, one of her best friends was this typewriter, this machine, you know, this, this, this Woody Guthrie esque machine that kills fascism.

You know, it's like, it, it was typewriters are beautiful instruments and, it was such a great gesture of Kath's to say, "Don't let this instrument die. You know, don't let this instrument just gather dust on a shelf." And I called up Kel, Greg, we call him Kel, a couple of weeks after, and I just said, "Hey, I've got this idea."

Covid had sort of finished, like we'd come outta lockdown up here in Brisbane where I, where I am. We didn't have it as bad as some of the other cities in, in Australia, but we had some lockdown periods and I phoned up Kel and I just said, "Mate, do you mind if I do something really nice with your mum's typewriter?"

"I'll have a sign saying, sentimental writer collecting love stories. Do you have one to share? I'll have a desk that I'll place on the busiest corner of Brisbane, the corner of Adelaide and Albert Street, and I'll have two chairs that I bought for 50 bucks at, BCF, one for me and one for anyone who wants to sit."

And for two months I sat on this corner, just asking strangers to tell me love stories and, and what happened was, so I reverse engineered that letter or I was almost thinking about that letter, Kyra. I was thinking about 'Dear Kath'. I sat for two months on and off, like maybe three days a week from about I'd start at about, like, 8:30 and I'd go to about 3, just sitting on this corner and the most amazing caravan, Ry of, of people stopped to tell me their love stories. Incredible. Like, I'm talking 60-year-old, you know, tough as nails old rusty drunks who would go, "I don't have a love story." And then five minutes later they'd be weeping in the BCF chair next to me, and all the way to people who were grieving. All the way to young lovers, who had just fallen in love, high school lovers, you know. Yeah, just the most amazing celebration of love that unfolded over those two months. All that time I was thinking about the 'Dear Kath' letter and it was like, of course I will open this book with a letter to Kath written on the Olivetti, and that was, that was me kind of, giving back to her.

That's where it all started. I was like, of course. I was always wondering, how am I gonna open this book of this really strange collection of stories that I've got? And it was gold, Kyra. I came home with gold, like it was really, I was really surprised by what I got. And it was, how would you stitch all this together?

And I, I thought, of course, I I will, I will bookend it and, and the thread will be a tribute to this incredible woman, essentially, essentially two letters. So it will open with a letter to Kath and it will sign off with a little thank you letter to Kath. and so the 'Dear Kath' letter was just this really, setting the scene type letter, but of course I sort of, I knew where it was going by the time I was writing it, so I knew what I had in my pocket and I could sort of set the reader up as well as, as, as me stating my intentions that "I am gonna honour you, Kath." It was an, it was a, it was a, it was an a promise to myself as much as it was a promise to Kath that I will write with heart and truth and honesty and, no cynicism, like I will just refuse to be cynical. So much cynicism in this world, and I was just like, Kath never believed in cynicism. You know, she was feisty and funny, and wry. But she wasn't a cynic, you know? And, and, and I, and I love those type of people, you know, and, and so I wanted to write that letter filled with kind of Kath's spirit.

And that's where it all came from. And it was just the perfect sort of little grounding for the reader and for myself.

Kyra Rose

Yep, and what an incredible gift to have received from somebody who was so pivotal in your life as well.

Trent Dalton

Oh, Kyra, don't, you're gonna get me emotional. Like what? No, 'cause it, it, it's been a while since she gave me that gift.

And it, thank you for the reminder. You know what I mean? And it was, it, it has been, and don't you. Like, it's so beautiful that you frame it in that way because the, the act that she did has, has meant so many unexpected things to people. Like, so many unexpected. I get the most ama– you know, it's all correspondence, right?

She, she started her correspondence, which is such a gift, right? That's to write someone a letter is a gift, but to give someone a typewriter, to enable them to write other letters and other correspondence is such a gift, and because of that gift, you know, I get letters from people who now have read that Love Stories book and talk about how it, it helped them heal, you know, from, from the darkest places, you know, or help them climb out of the cracks, and it's like, that's so right, what you say, Kyra.

Yeah. What a gift.

Kyra Rose

And to think that here it was a typewriter to come back to that, to that typewriter and the power of that. And I think, yeah, it's the, it's the gift that has kept on giving really, isn't it?

Trent Dalton

Oh, Kyra. It sits down, it's down in my writing space as we speak and, I, I turn to it and I tap things on it.

There's a piece of paper in it that anyone can come into our house and just tap her, tap on, know my daughter's friends, come and just tap. My daughter taps me random notes on it every now and then, and it's, it is absolutely a gift. It's, it's, it's a friend that is there for life and, and Kath knew it would be. That's the beautiful thing, you know, this is like Kath lives in there, you know, Kath lives in there, you know, and, and my, you know, Kel, Greg Kelly, Kath's son, you know, he, he can't believe the Love Stories book. Like he cannot believe what happened. Wow. Like, yeah. Yeah. All, all from an act of generosity. Yeah. It's incredible. No, thanks for reminding me, Kyra. It's been, yeah. It's beautiful to, to think about.

Kyra Rose

No, thank you, Trent. And, thank you for sharing and joining us today and giving us your time.

'Dear Kath' has a lot. There's a lot in there for us to unpack and explore. So thank you so much for that. It's such a poignant piece of writing.

Trent Dalton

It's a pleasure to talk English and talk books in as part of just, you know, an amazing, you know, I get so touched that, you know, education systems are, are celebrating writing like this. So thank you.

Kyra Rose

Trent, it has been a pleasure to have you join us. Thank you for sharing your insights into 'Dear Kath', such a poignant piece of writing and into your writing process as well.

Trent Dalton

Kyra, thank you so much for having me. Go English, go the English teachers. It was an utter joy talking. Thank you.

Kyra Rose

Thanks. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in.

If you like today's episode, please subscribe to 'In Conversation with Writers', leave us a review, share with your friends. You can also follow us on social media for updates and upcoming episodes.

Until next time, keep exploring the world of words and ideas.

This is your host signing off. We look forward to you joining us in our next episode.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose

Welcome to 'In Conversation With Writers', the podcast where we dive into the minds of writers and explore their ideas and processes.

This episode is part two of our conversation with author and journalist Trent Dalton. In this episode, we discuss with Trent the power of the writer listening.

One of the things that you write in your letter to Kath was that the greatest gift that we can give to the world is just to shut up and listen.

So, on that, it seems like a, it seems like really good advice for everyone, but also specifically for writers. So, what advice would you give then on how just to sit and listen to the world?

Trent Dalton

The act of listening is absolutely the greatest gift we can give someone. I'm so guilty of not listening properly to people, and it's an, it's a, it's a skill that every journo needs, but absolutely it's a skill every writer needs. I, I consider it a part of this bigger, umbrella kind of way of approaching the world, which is approaching the world with enthusiasm. And I, and it's just like I speak about the, I bore people with the importance of enthusiasm.

So be enthusiastic around the friends that you are lucky to have, be enthusiastic about The Beatles song that's on the radio. Be enthusiastic about the dinner your mum just made you. Be enthusiastic about the person who's talking to you and the story they're telling you because stories are a gift and storytelling is the thing that made this world possible.

Listening is how you learn, you know about yourself, through the stories of others. Listening is how you learn to get closer. You know that amazing concept of you, you think you hate someone, please move closer. Please listen harder. You know, you think you, you, you are judging someone. Please listen longer. It's just an incredible gift. And you know, the 'Dear Kath' letter was, was me vowing to Kath that I will listen. I will do what you did, Kath.

She was one of those people, those great Australian neighbours, you know, we all have 'em, those great Australian neighbours who hose their, their garden at 5:00 PM as the sun's about to go down and they, they listen. They just listen to the stories of anyone who passes. Anyone, the postman, the neighbour three doors down, you know?

But you know, I, I was raised, Kyra, by, you know, a man, you know, my, my old man was like a single dad raising 4 kids. He had, so he had so many flaws as a dad. I tell you, and I'll get emotional telling you, one of his greatest gifts was his ability to listen to his 4 sons. You know, like, just listen and listen and listen.

And maybe he'd throw a little Clint Eastwood one-liner of wisdom, but maybe not, you know, just, just listen. And, and I, I, I saw him do that listening at, at, at pubs when I was a kid growing up, and I saw him listen to neighbours. He was like that as well. And the most, you know, the people I admire the most are the ones at the dinner party who were just, you know, letting, letting the, the, the chatter boxes probably like myself, you know, run off.

And, and I'm always, I'm always trying to be conscious of, you know, just, you know, the whole book of love stories. I, I'd, I'd kind of gotten a bit caught up in, in my own life story really with the Boy Swallows Universe journey. That book was sort of getting pretty big at a point, and I'd kind of gotten lost in just talking all the time. I was just talking in interviews and it was so amazing to get to that corner and to just listen, just listen to strangers. It was so, informative and so life changing and yeah, all, all just by opening your ears, it's just the easiest thing you can do. It's like, it's like that thing everyone talks about when you're trying to solve someone's problem.

You know, you are solving it just by saying nothing. You know, you are helping just by being and, and, and being open and not trying to think of the next, sentence that you need to say, but actually listening to the one coming in the, the, the gift that they're offering you. Yeah. So, but, but, but that listening and that whole two months of listening that I was doing was me saying I'm opening up to the wider universe though too.

It's, it's quality listening, not just sort of half-baked, you know, I'm, I've got my right eye on my phone type listening. You know, there's, there's, there's all sorts of versions of listening that we can do. It's that idea of, are you listening or are you hearing, you know, it's like they're, they're, they're 2 different things sometimes. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, tricky skills to develop as well. Very.

Trent Dalton

Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Very difficult.

Trent Dalton

Definitely. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

So what is it – So you had all of these people coming up to you sharing their stories. What was it that you were on the lookout for? When they were sharing those stories or just when you listen in general?

Trent Dalton

Yeah, beautiful. I'm listening to that moment of pathos and profundity and one, I'm, I'm, yeah, man, like all my life, Kyra, I'm looking for the wonder. I'm, I'm a, I'm a seeker. You know, I'm a, I'm a, you know, always have been, you know, like that's just a legacy of, you know, my youth or, you know, looking out my window when things were going on that I don't, I don't want to engage in down the hall.

You know, I'm a, I'm one of those kids who was looking out the back window at the Golden Orb Weaver spider making its web, you know, and, and seeing how long that web can last in a storm. You know. Wondrous, you know, just a wondrous thing, you know, and, and, and I'm looking for the Golden Orb Weaver spider in everyone, you know?

And so it's like the idea of it is putting a spotlight and on on on the ordinary and, and realising that the ordinary is always extraordinary. You know, finding, finding the extraordinary in the ordinary. And, and you do that by placing someone's story up on a pedestal. A as as clear and as important as if it's a story coming from Barack Obama or if it's a story from a king, you know what I mean?

Because all stories are equal. All stories are, they're interesting on their own levels. And so I was always finding the finding where the narrative was. I've got this thing, Kyra, it's really boring. I'll try and tell it to you quick. Every human being has has the museum, right? We all have the museum in our, in our brains. We all have these museums inside of us where we keep our little exhibit boxes and they're, they're this sort of protective plastic prisms holding every memory we ever have. Right. It's like our first kiss is in one box and our first time we scored a footy try and you know, the time grandma died is in another box.

Well, you are always trying, I am as a journalist, often trying to get, as a feature writer in particular feature writer, I'm trying to get to the dark cobwebbed room of the museum. That's right at the back. And it's like, I've got one of those absolutely. And that's Boy Swallow's Universe. Like I I, I flippin' opened up my cobweb room and went, come in, come in. By all means. You know, and, and it turns out opening up that cobweb room was complex and complicated, but it was one of the best things I could have ever done. And what you're trying to do as a listener is, is let, is trying to build that trust enough so the person takes you past the first kiss. Past the, the time they got 6 for 31 in cricket, you know? That's all good. That's all well and good, but let me hear about your cobweb room. That's right at the back and the, and it's, and it's rickety and, and the box doesn't even have a light on it. You know, you've gotta like, kind of turn the light on and, and it's just a lamp light. Like, it's just like a half light because you know, they might not want too many people to see that.

That's sort of where I was getting at. And you, and. And you, I'm, I'm telling you almost every time they, you, you would get there if you took the time. If you just kept listening and listening. Sometimes you'd get there in 20 minutes. Sometimes it would take 2 hours. And, but that was the moment. And you knew, you were, you knew you would gotten there when, when the, they'd pause and they might shed a tear or, and so then I would, then I would retrace the whole conversation and go, well, let's, let's talk about this again.

With the cobweb room in mind, and that changed everything. So it was sort of, but it's, but it's, you know, it, it can also be just like a, you know, the cobweb room can just actually be just beautiful in there as well. You know, it was just like, it can be something that's just ama-, you know, some beautiful slice of tenderness, you know what I mean?

When, when it's someone like a, an ex-bikey or something opening up. You know, the, the, the glass house, you know, the room, they keep their their most fragile flowers. You know what I mean? It's like, it, it, it can be different kinds of rooms back there, but it was just trying to get to that new room, I guess. And, and, and you always knew when you gotten there and it's, and it's, and it's called vulnerability and it's called revelation. And you are looking for those sort of things. And and then, and then you can build your whole story on that. You can build a whole story. You can, you can. You can build a whole story on a, on a, on a single sentence. And, and you know you've got it when it's, it's, it's the thing you've never heard before.

And that's called pathos. You know, and it's like, that's, that's, that's the, it's the, it's the window into the soul that. It's the thing you know about yourself, but you sort of didn't know it, and you were reminded by it by this one line that this beautiful person told you when you go, "That's a beautiful insight," and that's a new insight into this thing called living.

Kyra Rose

Yeah, I, I like that idea of it being about revelation and vulnerability, and that's –

Trent Dalton

Oh yeah.

Kyra Rose

That's where you find the gold as such.

Trent Dalton

Oh what, how, how beautiful is it when a friend or someone you've known twenty years or a new friend or someone on the bus just shares some new moment and you're like, oh, it's such an honour. It's such a privilege as a friend or as a family member to, to feel that insight into that, new insight into someone.

Kyra Rose

Yeah. Do do you think that perhaps, strangers, given that these were people walking up to you and saying, "I have a story to share."

Trent Dalton

Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Do you think they're more prepared to be vulnerable as well?

They don't have those guards up that you establish in relationships. I don't want you to see the ugly side of me or anything like that?

Trent Dalton

Oh, I'm hearing ya'. I, I, I did a, I did a story once, a feature story for a weekend magazine where I became a taxi driver. I went and got my taxi driver's license. It was the most amazing weekend.

And I just picked people up and just heard their stories. And the stories people will tell a taxi driver, are just phenomenal. Like, you just wouldn't believe it. And I even told them, by by the way, I'm doing this for a, like a magazine story. And they're like, "Yeah, that's all right. That's all right."

And, but it is, you're so right. It, you know, our human, our interaction, our, our long-term friendships and our family connections can have so much backstory and baggage to them and reasons why you wouldn't reveal a certain thing. But you know, I talk about it, all the time, you, you tell me a scenario where you get to sit and just talk to someone who will listen for 2 hours. You know, that's like, you've gotta pay maybe a psychologist for like 2 hours and that costs a fortune, some sort of brilliant therapist. Good luck to you. But you know. I was just on that corner just saying, 'Hey, I'm here'. And I'm like listening hard that, that, that became Love Stories. And they go, "Wow. Like I didn't know my story was that important. I didn't know my story was that meaningful."

And, and that was a really beautiful thing. And that was only because they decided to talk to a stranger. Yeah. It's just such a, a beautiful thing. There's a freedom to it. Absolutely. There's, there's a, there's no repercussions. There's no. You know, I, I won't hold it anything they say, oh, I am A– Australian. I will not possibly hold this against you. You know what I mean? And so there's a great freedom to that. Absolutely. And that's the beauty of, of anyone who's open to that in life. Like, you know, it's, it's why travel is so beautiful.

You know why people love traveling so much? You always find yourself in conversations with strangers while you're traveling because you're so, receptive. You, you are so opened up to the world because you, you just, you're, you're a sponge taking it all in because it's a new land, you know? And, I have this thing about treating each time you go outside and it's like, well, yeah, of course it's magical. When you walk out your front door in the suburbs of Australia, you know, it is magical. You walk out and the first thing you see is a frangipani tree. Like, that's extraordinary. So what if, what if you lived your entire life as if you, you know, it's all new? As if you just landed from Mars? You know, it's just such a cool exercise and you've never seen a caterpillar. Like what have, you've never seen, you know, what have, you've never seen, you've never heard a story from another human being, you know, and you sit, sat down on a corner. And here comes this stranger and they go, let me tell you about love. It's like, that's gonna be thrilling. And that's how I sort of approached it too.

It's like, I've never heard of the concept of love, so tell me about it. You know, like that was a really cool thing. Love being the most complex and interesting reason to be on this planet. So tell me about that thing, that four letter umbrella term, that hopelessly inadequate four letter umbrella term.

That defines the reason we are here.

Kyra Rose

To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to 'In Conversation With Writers', leave us a review, share with your friends.

You can also follow us on social media for updates and upcoming episodes. Until next time, keep exploring the world of words and ideas.

This is your host signing off, and we look forward to you joining us in our next episode.

[End of transcript]

Kyra Rose

Welcome to 'In Conversation With Writers', the podcast where we dive into the minds of writers and explore their ideas and processes. This episode is part three of our conversation with author and journalist Trent Dalton. In this episode, we discussed with Trent the gift of writing and his influences.

And I think it's beautiful, and I think that really speaks to the power of the gift, but also, like, the act of a typewriter and yes, it's, it's mentioned there in the letter as well about the power of the typewriter and just writing and Kath herself and her letters, and how she tried to enact change as well through that.

I think that's, yeah, it's, it's a really powerful tool.

Trent Dalton

Kyra. It's the reason why English changed my life, you know, like this, you know, I'm, I, I hope a lot of people in English class get to listen to this because I cannot express to you enough. I had this English teacher named Shirley Adams. She taught for years and years, decades at this school called Bracken Ridge, that used to be called Nashville, that I went to this school called Bracken Ridge State High.

And it was just a fairly rough as guts school at times, and, and, and, and inside that school was this angel named Shirley Adams, who, who kind of kind of grabbed me and said, "I know you are, you think you're so clever and you're a bit of a smart Alec, and, I know you kind of process all this, stuff in your life by being, glib. And, well, can you just please remember that you also have this thing called words in you? And, and, and, and it will, it, it will be your way. It will be everything for you. It will be your way to channel everything. Like you will be able to cope with any failing, any sorrow, any darkness because you can, you are lucky enough to be able to structure a sentence or two."

You know, and it's like it's just like English is just the greatest gift to any particular, any teenager in particular. I just really, what I'm saying is like writing and, and, and, and processing through this beautiful thing we have called the English language, you know, and it's, it's just such a gift and it has been to me.

Absolutely. And I just, I just love, I love anyone out there who's teaching English and championing it, you know, because it's so powerful and it's so important. Storytelling, you know, that. Yeah, it's, it's everything. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Thank you. Thanks. I'll take that.

Trent Dalton

Yeah, please. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Do, do you think that it's the responsibility of an artist and a writer particularly, and I think like we, you could probably draw, draw on some of your journalistic experience here as well.

Yeah.

But just representing truth and getting ah, into the truth. Like if we're talking about love and how that reveals truths about ourself, man and the world around us, do you see that as being part of the responsibility of a writer in general?

Trent Dalton

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and, and it's the same way. And I, and I mean a science fiction writer can absolutely represent truth. You know, it's, it's, it's absolutely our responsibility to get to those higher truths, you know, and, you know, your brilliant questioning, Kyra, is actually at the heart of what I was trying to do in that book, is using absolutely micro specific love stories to talk about this higher truth about connectivity among us all. You know, that that's such a powerful truth that, that, you know, we are here on this planet, you know, to, to do all those things that we do in the kitchen. You know, to remember how powerful our kitchens are, where we take those horrible phone calls about the fact that Dad died, you know, like, or, or, or to get that, to hear that news that our eldest daughter got into uni. You know, like all of these things have happened to me in my kitchen, you know?

And it's like, it's so simple, but it's why I'm here. All those strangers connected me to those higher truths, you know, and, but it's absolutely the writer's role, you know, it's like, hence, why I always tell any young writer– Well, Hemingway said this first, write one true sentence. Just write one true sentence and then, and then write another true sentence. You know, just keep writing your truth and that becomes your voice, because no one knows the truth, like your truth, you know? And that's what separates you from 8 billion people. And that is ultimately the thing that will make you a great writer, that people can't stop reading because you are just telling truths. You're just like truth after truth, after truth, as you know it. And, that's untouchable. That's untouchable. It's, it's, it can't be cri- criticized. It can't be, it's, it's, it's truth is perfect.

It just like, like the legal system talks about this, like, law is truth, you know? It should be, it should be perfect. It not always is, but it's, it's aiming for a higher truth. And, and that's what writing should do as well. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

Amazing. Thank you. That's beautiful. On, on the Hemingway, when you were developing as a writer and even now, are there any writers who you look to, to, or who influence your craft, your style, those types of things?

Trent Dalton

Oh, oh style. Hemingway, definitely. Early days, I'll, I'll talk, you know, early days in high school I was reading a lot of, like, the cool people like Ker– Kerouac and William Burroughs. And, when I was a kid I was fascinated by darkness 'cause I had a lot of it around me. So I'd read all these, I, I started reading these stories like all about, like these books, like Junkie by William Burroughs and stuff, because I was trying to figure out people in my own life.

And then I moved into, like, Geraldine Brooks. And it's weird. It's like when I met my wife and I had children, I don't know, my life got more light in it, more optimism. And, it's so funny that that really changed into the books I was reading. So, then I'd read these, Geraldine Brooks and, you know, just book writers that had a sort of, even like a–.

The hope that's even in something like, Kurt Vonnegut's books, which are so weird and strange, but, so actually ultimately hopeful and, but yeah, I mentioned Dickinson before the, the, and, and, a lot of poe–, like Walt Whitman. I'll tell you what I do, Kyra, I, I've got these. I've got Dickinson on the left side of my writing desk and like Walt Whitman on my right and, and a reason I, the people I read before I start writing, sometimes I'll just pick up a passage by them and, and like Shakespeare, too. I've got this complete works of Shakespeare, but more–

Dickinson's so incredible to tap into your inner wonder. And she just, and her bravery is just astounding. Like, you just, it's so smart and she's just got so much life, you know? So I go to those people, Walt Whitman's, the same, the, the writing has life in it. And, and I find that very motivating. I, I talk about this thing called the hidden electricity. You just wanna, and I felt like these two people did that.

They thought about, like, death. They thought about death all the time and, and, and their role on the planet and, and how lucky we are to be here. And if you think on that stuff, just before you write, your fingers will be filled with electricity and you, you'll, you'll have a real power. Like I, I, I would often think about my life if I didn't meet my wife and, and therefore get to be a dad to my kids, and that's terrifying. But it's motivating as well. And you just sort of, but those sort of writers who write like that. Yeah. And then Australian-wise, this guy Steve Toltz. My daughter is actually just reading for English Marcus Zusak's The Book Thief. Like that's a we, and I was just reacquainting myself with that and it's just so inspiring and it's like there's so many great Australian writers too, who really, you know, really inspire me greatly as well.

Kyra Rose

Yeah, there are. Thank you for sharing that. So, what advice would you give to a young writer as they're setting out in trying to find their voice?

Trent Dalton

Yeah, ple– please remember that your voice has not been heard yet. That's the power of it. So do not be afraid of that white abyss called the A4 paper.

You know, do not be afraid of it. It, it is. It is absolutely your friend. And, and the, the black ink that is there now was so much better than the white abyss that was there before. And, critically though, please write with enthusiasm. Just write with all of your heart. Like never let this betrayal of a thing called the brain in until you've finished your first draft. Like, like, do not let this thing in the brain. You know, writing's got nothing to do with this thing up here. It's all to do with the thing down in your chest, your heart, and, and it will get you through that first, I call it the muscle draft because the heart is a muscle and it's like, you should be writing this thing. The brain will come in and criticise you and, and question you or start to go, oh, what?

Your brain will ask questions like, what will Mum say? Or what will, you know, what will, what will my English teacher say about that? You know what I mean? Can't, the heart doesn't ask questions like that. The heart only asks questions like, what are you gonna get out of this? You know, it's like the heart's just going, I can't wait to see the smile on your face when you hit the last full stop on this thing.

So just listen to that thing called the Heart. That's really, you know, the heart writes the book and the brain edits the book and yeah. But. Massive thing for me. Be enthusiastic. Get to that desk with love and enthusiasm and, and you cannot go wrong.

You know, there there are, there are no, there are no bad sentences. There are just, there are no bad sentences. There are, there are only sentences.

Kyra Rose

I, I like that. I like that idea of, you know, let the heart write and the brain will edit. That's –

Trent Dalton

Oh man.

Kyra Rose

I think that's excellent advice.

Trent Dalton

All the way, all the way.

Don't listen to the head. Oh, I mean, I need to listen to this myself. You know, I'm, I'm 45 and, and the brain always creeps in. The brain always creeps, sounds like, ugh. What will so and so say about that? Or am I, am I writing this thing? Is this true? Is this, is this, is this a true thing I'm writing, this story?

Yeah. Does anyone want this? Does anyone care? Yeah. All of that stuff. Yeah.

Far easier said than done. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Kyra Rose

And, and I think if we think about what we were saying earlier, it comes back to being, being prepared to be vulnerable as well. And,

Trent Dalton

Oh man.

Kyra Rose

Putting yourself out there. I think that's.

Trent Dalton

Oh, man. Like wrap your arms around those people who, who are honouring you with their vulnerability. You know, it's like I always, I, you know, I'm often kind of, people sort of go, Love Stories was such an optimistic project and I always tell people like, please don't be fooled by the title. Like that really cheesy title Love Stories.

It's like, it's a really dark book at times. And it, and it's like, but. Similarly, please don't be fooled by the bubbly person in your life. You know, please don't be, please don't discard blind optimism and consider it naivety. You know, please wrap your arms around the bubbly person, because invariably they're the ones who've seen the most darkness, you know?

And it's all they can do is to hold onto the light, you know? And it's like. You know, that's, that's, that's called vulnerability. And, and it, it, it's, there's a vulnerability in being the bubbly person, you know, and it's just like all of that beautiful stuff I love. It's a gift that that person's giving you by wrapping their arms around you and telling you how much they care about you. That's, that's an act of vulnerability and bravery.

So, you know, we should be responding in kind, you know, and it's sort of like. That's how I tried to write Love Stories too, you know, and, and I get so touched when, the way that book was received in kind, you know? It was taken for what it was. It was, people get it and they, they, they see the darkness in it and they know that it's me, you know, yet again trying to do all I can to hold onto the light as well, you know, and that's, that's, you know, that's, that's been a really beautiful thing.

Kyra Rose

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