Jackie King

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all First Nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Welcome to the creative cast Podcast series. My name is Jackie King and I'm a creative arts project advisor with the New South Wales Department of Education. Today's area of discussion is let's talk topics and today we'll be exploring some selected topics chosen by dance teachers for Stage five and how they structure their co-curricular programs to engage Stage four. Today, our first dance teacher is Shea Atchison, a dance teacher at Orange High School and has been teaching there for the past 14 years. After learning her technique in stage presence through dance studios for many years, she decided to take her training further and gained her bachelor of dance education through the Australian College of Physical Education. She has built the dance program at Orange High School from the ground up. She enjoys allowing students of all levels and the ability to perform and express themselves through dance. Today, my second guest is Amelia Morello, the dance coordinator at East Hills Girls Technology High School. Before teaching, Amelia professionally danced with Austinmer Dance Theatre as a contemporary dancer before moving to the commercial dance industry.

Amelia is the soul dance teacher at East Hills Girls and choreographs many extracurricular dance events, including Wakakirri, In The Spotlight Dance Festival and Bankstown Dance Festival. Amelia is the Secretary for Dance Educators Professional Association, DEPA, creating professional development opportunities for other secondary dance teachers and advocating for the subject and its importance in the New South Wales curriculum. Shea and Amelia welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us.

Shea, I'm going to start with you and ask, Can you start us off by sharing a little bit about your school community and the place of dance in your school culture?

Shea Atchison

Yeah, so we actually are really lucky in Orange to be blessed with a lot of dance studios in town as well. That allows kids to do external dance classes. So it was really nice when I came to Orange High School to know that our kids had all these opportunities already outside of school and that I could then continue to build on it here at the actual high school. So we've got about 1200 students in Orange High School, and our dance program has a really great blend of girls and boys from year seven all the way to year 12 kids. They love it, and that's why that's why I love doing it. It's great that they have the opportunity to do all of these really amazing performance opportunities that they get by doing dance at school

Jackie

Amelia for you, I'm assuming it's very similar that the students have opportunities to learn dancing outside of school. I know that you have a reasonably engaging co-curricular program that you've got going on as well. Could you share a little bit more about where dance fits into the school culture at your school? And a bit of your school community?

Amelia Morello

Yeah, sure thing. So East Hills Girls Technology High School have around about 900 students. 15 of those students are Indigenous, and 76% of those students have a background other than English. We are an all-girls high school and also a technology high school. So there really is a large focus on utilizing technology to really facilitate education in the classroom. There's also a strong focus on female education, so really empowering young women to achieve their personal best. And our school is underpinned by a culture of high expectations. It filters through every subject and every teaching classroom; our values are curiosity, creative and critical thinking, generosity and honour. And our school motto is honour before reward. So students at our school are really encouraged to extend their talents and push their boundaries, focusing on students maintaining a growth mindset. So dance sits within the CAPA faculty. We have stage five and dance classes within Stage six. So we have classes from 9 through 12, but we also have a lot of stage four dance opportunities. So I run Year seven dance during sport time there on a three-week rotation, and I really focused on targeting stage four outcomes within that space. And then, we also have another program called Project High School. So primary school students come from Year six and come to our school for a day every Thursday, and they take just creative arts, creative and performing arts subjects with us. And I found that that has had a really positive effect when they enrol and come to our school the following year. They are already familiar with our faces and our teaching methods. We do have a lot of opportunities, and the girls themselves, really are engaged. There are many dance studios within the area. However, some students have never danced before. They're still invited to participate and really embrace the opportunities that we have. So in the past, we have participated in Wakakirri. We also do state and regional dance festivals and enter the girls in eisteddfods, in a local eisteddfod. Every year we do school spectacular. We also have an annual creative and performing arts showcase in term two, which we call Virtuoso. And we showcase dance, drama and music performances live. Last year in Covid, we also filmed that and shared that out to the community, which was lovely. And we also have visual arts and photography that are integrated into that space as

Jackie

Fantastic. That sounds like a hectic extracurricular program that you've got going there, and a vast calendar of events, which I know a lot of creative arts teachers end up taking on, is a massive calendar of lots of extracurricular events. So it sounds like you've got a very active extracurricular program happening there. I wanted to talk today. We're talking about topics that you teach in your dance classes, and so you've both touched on that you have stage five dance classes, so I thought we'd really focus on that today. So, Amelia, are you able to start us off by sharing one of your favourite topics that you have taught to a Stage five class?

Amelia

I have so many favourites, so I don't really know which ones to pick. But I'll try and share a few, and everything I do is backward mapped from stage six. So I look at what we want the students to achieve in Stage, particularly in the HRC, and I work backwards from there. So as the dance curriculum is a spiral curriculum were revised and revisit these concepts each time. So I really think about how can I lay the foundations of the core concepts first, so that when they move into Stage six, they've already got a really good grasp on what I would like them to learn in terms of the units of work. The best ones are the ones where there is a really integrated, interrelated study between performance, composition and appreciation. So my favorite one would have to be in year nine dance. We do a unit called Deconstructing and Reconstructing dance. In their prior units of learning, they've already learned about performance and composition and a bit of appreciation separately. They've been introduced to these core learning areas and then in term three they watch previous HSC prescribed work set for studies, so there are many resources out there. So the girls begin by watching the work, and then I teach them a section of the work. They learn the choreography from that section and focus on performance quality as they've learned about safe dance and dance technique in term one. So I'm able to really focus on and isolate performance quality and how they can communicate and interpret through facial expression, quality of line projection focus. Students then have to manipulate the choreography and choose a new intention for that choreography in groups or in pairs. So they are really honing in on their compositional skills. But they already have a motif that has been established within the work that they can then manipulate using the 16 ways to manipulate a motif. Students are then required to write an essay, um, answering how the choreographer has used space to communicate their intent. I find space is the easiest way for students, particularly in year nine. I really do heavily scaffold that essay response. And it is backwards mapped from the HSC extended response. Students understand how to use the language of description to describe the movement. Then, they use the language of representation to interpret the meaning of the movement.

Jackie

Fantastic. I really love how your unit is called 'Deconstruct, reconstruct'. It's obviously one of the elements within aboriginal pedagogies or formerly known as the Eight Ways. So really breaking down those works and then redoing them is really important and a really great way to engage students, which is fantastic. The fact that you're backwards mapping from Stage six and using a past course prescription is really remarkable. Shea, would you be able to share one of your favourite topics that you teach with your students at Orange High School?

Shea

So I'm similar to Amelia, where everything is kind of mapped to being able to continue on into Stage six. And it's all about that continuum for that programming and that scope and sequence from Year nine into year 12. I think that my favourite place to start is purely just at the very start. I love that moment when you've got kids, and they haven't done, you know, some of them have never danced before. Some of them have danced since they were like four, you know, And then they come in and just explain how the body moves and how we move like that and why the body moves like that. And how we do that safely, I think, is my favourite part of it because, you know, they get those moments where they go. Ah ha, like I understand what that means and, oh, I can, I can physically feel that muscle moving when you place me in that lunge, or for me, it's that moment. It's those lightbulb moments for the kids and their enjoyment from actually having a greater understanding. You know, there are lots of kids that can kick their leg, but they don't quite understand how it gets there. For me, that initial kind of safe and sound unit, as I call it, is all about, you know, you're safe dance practice and how the actual body is moving in regards to your anatomy. For that to happen, that leads further into that dance technique and performance quality that they then start to learn from with movement on stage and do all of the performance opportunities they get to do it. And towards the end of that unit, I start to kind of incorporate the use of the elements of dance in regards to a bit of bit of compositional work where they don't quite realize that's what they're doing. But they will start to manipulate the movement safely. We started a performance dance.

They start to manipulate that using the elements of dance is space, time and dynamics. Without them even realizing they're manipulating movement already before you have to say to them, Okay, this is composition, and this is why we start here. They're already getting those skills to go into that. So I think that's my favourite place to begin for year nine is just I just love starting from scratch and starting from the very start. Yeah.

Jackie

I was going to ask how you both incorporate things like safe dance practice and the elements of dance, but I feel like you both really covered that there. The syllabus says that dance is obviously to be studied through the practices and the elements of dance and that the units need to be sort of broad and have an overview of each of those practices and dance styles are more considered as a vehicle through which those contents areas through which those content areas are studied. Do you have any particular dance styles, or do you look at different dance styles within your topics that you study, Shea?

Shea

Yeah, yeah, so we look at quite a lot of different dance styles. I think the great thing about dance in schools and the ability for kids to do it here in school is that it can be manipulated and changed to suit their specific style that they might be most comfortable with strong in and that you can start to work with those kids to work out. You know, they may have a greater dynamic quality that they would rather use than someone next to them. The movement gives them the ability to really convey what they want to show through that interpretation of the movement. The dance styles, you know, and I start with kind of like just your modern dance, and your jazz dance point is, we look at about we talk about dance and where that came from and how it got there for those specific styles. It depends on the students that are having a classroom as to what other styles will then go into. For example, this year, I have a student from India, so she's only being in the country for about 12 months. But she was delighted to stand up, and you know she was. She's been doing some Indian dance warm-ups with us and bringing her cultural dance into it as well. And we have quite a high Indigenous intake too if students that are happy to come in and do some movement around their traditional Aboriginal dance, which is really nice. And I think that it's essential to focus on the kids' cultures in the classroom, to help that engagement of them as well. And I just love musical theatre, too. So musical theatre is always thrown in there every time, and the kids enjoy that, too. It gives them a bit more freedom and a bit of fun. So, yeah, try to cover a few. It just depends on what I see in front of me for the year and what class I've got.

Jackie

Fantastic music theatre is my favourite style when I'm talking drama when I'm talking music. Now when I'm talking, dance, love, love, love, music theatre, it's my home away from home. So I'm glad that you've thrown that in. I love how you've spoken about giving the students in your classroom or how it increases engagement when students in your classroom are sort of allowed to be the experts. They are allowed to show people what they're, they're strong at. What styles of dance they're strong at. Amelia, do you have the same sort of abilities as the students in your classes? They're just the expert and show off their various styles of dance that they're stronger?

Amelia

Our student's interests really differ. What I do find is that the students really do love commercial dance. And so when we look at year 10 history of dance, firstly ballet, than contemporary, and then we move into jazz. So I like to look at both ends of, um, contemporary and jazz. So starting with the pioneers of contemporary dance, and exposing then to Martha Graham and Doris Humphrey, but then moving into the commercial contemporary that we see today. But I also ensure that I go and take open dance classes so that I'm constantly up-skilling and that the movements I bring to them interest them. But yes, they definitely take in turns teaching skills to the class that we can integrate into our class performances, mainly in contemporary and then commercial jazz.

Jackie

So you've both talked about some of the co-curricular programs you run, particularly in Stage four, as you don't have, like actual dance classes in Stage four. So I'm wondering if you have an opportunity to introduce some of those elements of the syllabus through these programs that you do? Some terminology, like your elements of dance or some safe dance practice ideas in that. Shea, are you able to talk to your programs first?

Shea

Yeah, I definitely do introduce those elements. It's probably a much simpler idea of them. It might more just be about mainly that performance quality that uses projection or that quality of line and extending through the lens and things like that. I do talk about safe dance practice quite a lot. It doesn't matter what year it is, but you know, just as simple as, like, take your socks off the floor's really slippery. You see, they still understand why we make those choices and why we do those things even earlier on. I'm fortunate with my extracurricular. It's just it's the only way that I would get electives up by running extracurricular ensembles in years seven and eight. And unfortunately, it doesn't fit on a timetable. Um, so I'm here every morning at eight o'clock to run those ensembles to try and make sure that this program keeps building it at Orange high school. But I also utilize some senior students to do that, especially the kids coming through Stage six dance or those in Stage five that I know will go through and do Stage six. I think it gives them a more significant opportunity for composition, choreographic movement, and the ability to teach other dancers. It builds those skills and confidence. And I think that those younger students, years seven and eight students actually look up to the senior students. I think, Oh, I want to be that person one day, and that gives me something to build towards for dance. So, yeah, I constantly have those conversations about safe dance practice and technique and performance quality. But it's nice for the kids to be taught by their own peers to give them that confidence and help build those skills.

Jackie

And Amelia, you even have the opportunity to be starting to build that language of dance and that interest in dance with your program for students in Year six. So can you tell us a bit of how that works and how you're able to start building in some of those syllabus ideas into your year six program?

Amelia

Yeah, so when students come to us on a Thursday, I have two hours with them to teach dance to them, which is really great. I usually focus one hour on performance and one hour on composition. Sometimes, if I have the space, I can do a short analysis with the students. I have a set warm-up that I change year to years. So I do that from 7 through to 12 and also with Project High School. So the language that I'm using as I described the movement, I'm really modelling the language of the syllabus. So as I'm explaining extending my arm out, completing the quality of line. So whilst I'm modeling that physically and verbally, they start to get familiar with these terms in High School. We start with performance, and I did work with them recently where they all had pillows. They did a lot of movement based on the floor and floor work in the contemporary style. So I was really able to build that foundation and focus on alignment, transfer of weight, and off-centred movements, which was really great in terms of composition. Move across to year seven. When I see year 7, 3 times of rotation during sport, I'm fortunate because I get to teach visual arts and music and English and dance at East Hills, so I can find many lovely cross-curricular opportunities. So year seven, for example, in English and in visual arts, we look at the symbolism, so visual techniques in English and then in visual arts we look at colour psychology with Matisse and how he uses colour to express emotion. So when I get those students in Year seven for dance, we look at the clip InsideOut, where her emotions are introduced for the first time, and they're associated with colours. And afterwards, we brainstorm.

And I think brainstorming on a whiteboard really visually for students before moving into a composition task is really helpful for them. So we categorize the emotions in colours, and we brainstorm the associated emotions. Then, the students need to create 3 to 4 shapes based on that emotion, and they generally are quite literal. But then, as we move through, I get them to experiment with varying levels, shapes changing the arms' pathways. After that, I get them to connect the movements together, and if I can extend it further, I'll get them to change the dynamic. Then there's a possibility there to partner, up to them up. So they've done that as a solo, we can partner them up and go through complementary and contrasting shapes so we could partner to different emotions and talk about how they can interact together as

Jackie

You must be very busy, Amelia, if you're teaching visual arts, music, English, plus being the dance coordinator and doing all of that extra curricula, plus your dance classes in Stage five and six.

Amelia

Yeah, I'm swamped, but I'm sure you can tell I'm passionate. I absolutely love it. And I think that to be honest, I think this is the life of every dance teacher. It usually is just one of us. So, yeah, I think that's yeah, the reality of choosing this subject at uni.

Jackie

Sometimes I know, I'm going to refer to the drama podcast that we recently released, and they said, It's sometimes a blessing and a curse. As we're talking about before the podcast, it's hard because you're not. You don't have people to bounce off, but I guess you do get to really know your students and because particularly you're giving. Given that you're in Stage four teaching across a range of subjects, you're really getting to know them and be able to integrate their learning. Something that I think is really important in dance is obviously being able to communicate various ideas. You've touched on emotions from the inside out as well. And I love that movie, how it breaks down emotions for people or for Children. Can you talk about how you can get that out of students, how you can use sort of scaffold or give them opportunities to be able to communicate and express themselves through their composition and through their performance in dance.

Shea

I think composition. When you look at the elective itself, I'd say that most kids mostly struggle with composition. This is probably a broad statement, but especially for those kids with incredible technique and performance quality and who have been dancing their whole lives. It's tough for them to personalize an abstract movement, and I think that's probably the first struggle they face. It was having to be about something they had to create a concept, intent, and motif that movements manipulated. So I focus on that use of stimulus, and even though you may visually see something, that gives you an idea. If we delve a little bit deeper and what else can we get out of that idea? Um, and the stimulus is purely only that, just a stimulus. How else can we convey through what we want to show the audience and those just really simple or not straightforward? But you know, those tasks with just working with space. So I could really be saying, with the use of a shape, typical weeds. And then we're going to extend through that and then extend through that, and I like to kind of give them a whole heap of different ideas, to begin with. You know what? We might start with brainstorm things that people want to dance about or how they're feeling, or what the thing today or what they've heard.

Auditory is always an exciting one, too. Suppose you're all laid down, and you're close your eyes and listen. In that case, the amount of different answers you get from that and what people are actually tuning into is quite interesting. To see what the kids are hearing and what they're focusing on. That ability, then for them to convey what they're feeling and what they're listening to or what they're seeing into movement, I think, is where they start to struggle a little bit. That kind of simple shapes into that transition of moving that movement through a phrase or a sequence gets them moving. And I think sometimes the roadblock is what you know. They get to a certain point, and then they kind of get this roadblock, and they get stuck. So I think having them work as pairs, so you need nine. For example, we do a compositional task where it's as a group task, and we may. It's around the stimulus of a fairy tale. So everyone knows fairytales. Everyone has their favourite. Everyone can then piece together from a character they like and want to convey all the storyline - the underlying storyline coming. There's so much to look at regarding what's happening within the fairy tale that they can pull enough from. Then when it gets to year 10, we do like art as a stimulus creating, looking at artwork, finding a painting or a photograph or a statue or a sculpture that they discover that they're really connecting with. And then we look at that in the depth of what can we convey through that? What does that say? What do we want the audience to see? And once they can move past that, well, I don't know what I'm dancing about. Like once, they kind of get that concept intent. They can move past that the movement becomes more accessible and more personalized if they can. They can connect with that concept or that intent they're trying to convey, so that makes it easier for them to do that.

Jackie

Fantastic. Amelia, do you have any go to activities to get students to really communicate through their dance composition?

Amelia

Yeah, I agree with Shea that composition definitely is something that students struggle with. Most notably, I find students exposed to dance as the studio culture, which is really just showcasing technical strengths. When students come in year seven, if they are involved in the extracurricular dance opportunities, I'm constantly modelling composition. I get them involved in that choreographic process, showing them my starting point and my stimulus. I show them how I arrive at a motif. Then I give them choreographic tasks they need to complete either in groups or as a solo. They're constantly feeding back and sharing this movement. After weeks of generating that movement as a class, we then start to pick and select and refine that movement. First in the extracurricular program is really good for students because when they hit my class in year nine, they already know what a motif is. And they already know a bit of how to manipulate movement. Exploration and improvisation for students can be really scary, primarily if you use the word 'improvisation'. When I started at East Hills in 2018, the students were absolutely terrified to improvise. If I said that word back if looks could kill honestly like they just they really dislike it. So I got to the point where I have to turn the lights off, shut the curtains, get them to spread out as much as possible. So I started to think, how can I change and shift this culture around improvisation. So I have an incursion that happens in term four of every year. Um, students who choose dance in year eight who are about to do it in year nine of the following year are invited and all of the students in elective dance. So I usually get a youth dance company to come, and they go through composition, basics and tasking. And that's a pleasant, safe and supportive environment for students to experiment and know that it's not attached to a grade or an outcome. But they just get to play and explore. So when they come in year nine that they're asking me, can we do what we did last year? They're really keen to do improvisation.

Jackie

One last question on what you teach in Stage five is: 'Could you tell us about a task you have designed for your Stage five students that really starts to prepare them for the Stage six course?' Either in terms of performance, composition or appreciation? And how you bring out the elements of dance and safe dance practice with them.

Shea

My probably favourite topic or unit that I do in your term is actually dance for film. So I've only started doing this perhaps in a bit more in the last couple of years. Dancer film was becoming more prominent in a major study choice for students in Stage six. It has so many elements in it that the students have worked towards already. It allows them to just have a little snapshot or a little bit of a blanket at what another opportunity could be for them into Stage six with a major study. So obviously, it incorporates all of your dance technique safety. It's practice and performance quality.

The kids need to move; they need to be dancing. You need to see movement. But then they're also incorporating those compositional skills into creating this work. You know, they're choosing a concept intent. They're looking at motif. They're driving all of their phrases from that motif, manipulating those elements of dance for that to happen. Then they have put all of their film elements and components into that as well. I start with teaching those simple camera angles. We look at other dance works, professional works, or prescribed all prescribed works that we'll break down and look at why those angles have been used and what they're conveying to the audience. We discuss how we would use that angle or that shot that we're choosing to do while the lighting or setting they've decided to do. And we kind of incorporate their dance analysis and all of those performance and composition elements into that. The kids love it. They love being in front of the camera. Most of their life these days is what their phone in their hand and filming each other. So I feel like it brings us back from the tik toks and actually brings us back into that engagement of movement that they need to be creating from my teeth and from concept intent. And it also allows them to kind of show off a bit of their technique, and they're safe dance practice as well.

Jackie

And Amelia, have you got a go-to task or a favourite task that you'd like to share with us? That sort of starts to prepare your students in Stage five for Stage six?

Amelia

As we move towards the end of year 10 dance in terms before, I like to teach students the core performance dance that the HSC students have just finished performing. So the girls have seen the HSC class perform their work at Virtuoso. So when I tell them that they're going to learn if they get really excited and then from there, I really like to model the interview process through the Journal. So the Journal is backwards mapped from Stage six all the way through Stage five, really modelling what kind of interview response is expected of them in court performance. We discuss three or four body skills within the dance that they have learned, and then write into a shared Google document, analyzing the use of safe dance, dance technique and performance quality. This helps them understand the links across the syllabus with dance technique and performance quality and how alive and affects the quality of line, strength, flexibility, control, that kind of thing,

Jackie

I love that they're going to learn something that they've seen the other students doing. I'm sure they would get very excited about that. My final question for you both today is why dance is important to your students in your school?

Shea

I think it is essential to the students because I believe it allows them to have a creative outlet. It will enable them to have something that they love doing. They're passionate about that they can move their bodies every day, mainly depending on timetabling. But mostly, you see them every day, and it just gives them that opportunity to have that creative outlet and express themselves through dance. And I think that really helps when it comes to the stresses of other subjects or just teenage life in general. I think it gives them that out.

Jackie

I love that it gives them that creative outlet, and it's a de-stress as well. We all know that movement produces endorphins, and that's happy people. And so I really love that dance allows them to do that. Amelia, why is Dance Important to your students at East Hills girls?

Amelia

The girls are very passionate about dance. A lot of them come already with a dance background. Even the students who don't have a dance background will love it as soon as they are exposed. They come back to the studio again and again. They love getting up on stage and performing for their parents, and I also feel like students. They build their resilience in dance. In other subjects, like in English, for example, they write their essay they go, I'm done and getting them to work at something it can be really challenging. Whereas when they come into the dance classroom, they know that it's an ongoing process, and they want to do better than what they did yesterday. And I don't have to say that to them. That's something that they want. And so, yeah, that passion and that drive really radiate through them. And I really believe that this course really fosters that resilience. It promotes a hardworking mindset that you can then take into the rest of your life. This HSC course built the person I am today and me. It's so beautiful, and you can see those kids touched by this course, and you know that they're on that path and that journey within their life; they're going to continue to work hard because of dance.

Jackie

That is beautiful. I really love how you've connected with your own study of dance there. It is clear how important that was to you and clearly that passion drives through and overflows to your students. Shea and Amelia, thank you so much for joining us today and taking some time to share what you do in your schools and the tasks you do with your students in your schools. I know you're both very busy being the sole dance teacher in your schools, running all of these extra programs. But I'm sure your students really appreciate what you do. And hopefully, our listeners today will also appreciate the time you've taken to share a bit of what you do with us today. So thank you very much for joining the creative cast podcast.

Shea and Amelia

Thank you so much for having us.

Jackie

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team of Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales. Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email our Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor Cathryn Horvat at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

[end of transcript]

Jackie King

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all first nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Ravenna Gregory

So welcome to the creative cast Podcast series. My name is Ravenna Gregory and I'm one of the Creative Arts curriculum officers with the New South Wales Department of Education. Today I'm going to be talking topics and finding out what our two guests like to teach in stage four and five drama. Our first guest is Sonia Byrnes, who teaches at a school in Sydney's inner west. Sonia is a passionate drama educator with over 14 years experience teaching drama in New South Wales. She has worked extensively in girls' education and is known for her work around women in theatre and diversity of representation in drama. Our second guest is speaking to us from the Northern Rivers region. Lachlan Glasby started his teaching career as founding artistic director of Double Mask, a youth theater company focused on devising musicals and classical text adaptations. His work laid the foundation for his practice as a drama and English teacher at Wollumbin High School in northern New South Wales. Where as Head teacher of Learning, Lachlan is passionate about ensuring that assessment and programs are authentic, engaging and multidisciplinary. When he isn't teaching, he is a dad, husband and the level 14 wizard. Lachlan and Sonia. Welcome to the podcast.

Sonia Byrnes

Thanks for having me.

Lachlan Glasby

Thank you

Ravenna

Lachlan. Can you start us off by sharing a bit more about your school community and the place of drama in the school culture?

Lachlan

So our school community is located in a really vibrant arts community. We have the highest percentage of practicing artists outside of metro areas in Australia, so we're very lucky to have such a wealth of knowledge just down the road. There's an Oscar winning sound guy just up the road. Zac Efron has just moved in. And so we're got this real focus on the arts at the school that I'm in. It's a small school, 450 students. I am the only drama teacher, which is both a blessing and a curse, as we all know, those of us who are the only drama teacher in our schools. When I first started in 2014, we had a class of 13 year eight and maybe a year 11 on every off year, and we've now got a year eight, Stage five and a Stage six drama class that runs concurrently, and we run a season of events, so we try really hard every term. There is a performance at the end of every term, whether it be Year eight and the year 9/10. It's always cross KLA. So, we always jump in with either art or with science or with sometimes maths, dare I say it. So, that's our community, in a nutshell. We're very focused on the arts and we're very focused on implementing the arts within everyday practice in other KLAs.

Ravenna

Thanks. Wow. Zac Efron is down the road. Is this a real thing?

Lachlan

That is, that is a real thing. He just moved to somewhere around the around the area. I joke with the kids that I've seen him, but he hasn't seen me.

Ravenna

So it sounds like you've built a really amazing drama department there on your own, which is fantastic. That is a challenge, I suppose, that a lot of drama teachers face of being alone and building that strength of the department on their own is a really common challenge. I wonder, Sonia, what are some of the particular challenges and highlights of being in your new Inner Sydney school?

Sonia

Yeah, it's really different for me with my changeover. I've gone from building up over 10 years, a drama department in another school to suddenly coming into a school where I'm the sole drama teacher and there's not a whole lot happening with drama at the moment. There is a fantastic history of drama in the school and we are based in the inner western Sydney. So, there is a community outside of the school which is very focussed on the arts and theatre, but within the school itself, there's a lot of growth that can be done. We currently don't have drama in year seven or eight, so we've just got it in year 10, 11 and 12. I've started some extracurricular drama groups in years seven and eight in the hope to get that up for next year. But I think what I've come into is a community where the students really love the arts and their parents have quite a good understanding of the arts. But there hasn't been a lot of opportunity to foster it. I do think as well coming in in 2021, there is definitely the impact of covid on schools in the way that extracurricular groups and things like that couldn't go ahead. And so there may have been the beginnings of a good culture going on there, and it unfortunately just lost its roots during 2020. So, I think a lot of schools are in a similar position to me where we've come back in 2021 we're desperately trying to get that momentum up again and get the community rallying around us so that we have more that we can offer our schools when it comes to drama.

Ravenna

I think that's a really familiar story again for a lot of drama teachers. And I think, arts teachers in general, even at the performing arts high school that I was at before I came to this position, you know, the impact of not having the co curricular running has had a real impact on students. And I guess that kind of leads into quite nicely what we're here to talk about today, which is the topics that you really love teaching and the ways that you get students involved in those topics in Stage four or Stage five. What are the topics that you love teaching the most Sonia?

Sonia

I'm kind of known for my work on women in theatre, and I have to say my most favourite topic to teach is the unit on monologues that I do, which essentially is looking at women in theatre. So, I begin the unit of work by putting into context how little we've heard the voices of women in theatre throughout history, and I started off actually by getting students to find out who was the first female playwright. I asked many drama teachers this and a lot of people don't know. They often say Aphra Behn, which is, I guess, in the Western world, the one that we first know of. But it's actually a wonderful nun called Hrotsvitha, who was the first female playwright in the Western world, at least that we have documented. So, we start off in a place like that where we have a look at what is actually the reality of women's voices in theatre. And then we go on to look at what it is now and what kind of stories are told by women and why these stories might be important. I devised this unit of work well before the voice of women in theatre unit that came out for the HSC. That does have some similarities, but I've made sure that the focus is on the performance of realist monologues, and we look a little bit at Stanislavski within that. When I was teaching at a girls school, I would work incredibly hard to find a range of monologues for young women, making sure that there was a diversity and representation of what it meant to be a woman. I think that unit of work as students started to unfold and as you get into the objectives and the beats and units of the monologue, students slowly started to find themselves being a uniqueness in these expression of story, from female playwrights and from female characters and found within themselves and ability to identify aspects of their own lives, which I think is hugely empowering for young women. Often, they're playing roles in plays, which are from the canon of theatre written by men and with very traditional kind of roles that they might take on. So, when you start to present them a plethora of monologues from contemporary female playwrights who are writing and engaging with what it means to be a woman in this day and age, I saw girls get incredibly excited about that and come to life in a way that they hadn't when dealing with other texts within theatre in the same way. So that's one of my favourite stage five year 10 topics. Look at monologues. Get them excited about what senior drama might look like, give them the skills about how to approach it from a realist Stanislavski perspective. But ensure that I have given them a range of contemporary female voices to draw on in a context and a history that leads into that as well.

Ravenna

Amazing Sonia, and I'm super inspired now. I think I have always had an awareness of trying to make sure that we're including texts that are written by women. And looking at examples, I think, particularly of female theatre practitioners, becomes more and more difficult just because of the sheer amount of resources that already exist around the male voice. I guess what that brought up for me, Sonia, is the way that you approach teaching that Stage five unit. How has that changed in a coeducational context? And has it has it changed?

Sonia

I'm yet to teach it at Tempe, but I do think that I'm going to continue with that unit of work. I'm still going to work on giving the context, but perhaps expand it to not just women but minority voices. I have a lot of students at my school who identify with the L G B T Q I A community. I have a lot of students from Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander background, and so I think that unit can easily be expanded to basically give them an understanding of how to perform realist theatre and monologues. But from a contemporary perspective where voices are being heard outside the canon. I think I started that unit of work in an attempt to kind of say to students, we have had a way of teaching drama for hundreds of years now that relies on a certain set of texts and indeed practitioners and a way of approaching things. But drama can look different. And indeed, in this day and age, it needs to look different. And here are some examples that can engage you and help you find representation for other stories that you think might be missing from it. So, I have not taught that yet at my current school, but I am looking forward to essentially taking the blueprint of that work and just extending it to have a look at how have minority voices been looked at over history.

Ravenna

Fantastic. Thank you so much. So maybe a new HSC topic somewhere in that. So, Lachlan, I guess there's a great advantage in teaching something that you're passionate about as a teacher, and I'm interested in hearing about that. What topics are you passionate about teaching in stage four and five, but also what are the topics that students really warm to and really gets them on board?

Lachlan

The very quick answer is that in stage for I do a table-top role-playing game unit, which is all about the voice of the actor. We look at things like critical role and how much Dungeons and Dragons has just become part of the pop culture. And the kids love that. There's a part where they raid the costume room and they put on all their cosplays and we dim the lights in the performance workshop and they absolutely love it. It was really good during covid because we could still do zoom D’n’D. And it was it was really, really, really fun. I enjoy teaching it. But the unit that I think as a school we're very proud of is a Children's theatre unit that actually starts in term one and goes all the way to term three. Because we're trying to think vertically it involves multiple year groups and subjects. So, year seven in art have a mythical beasts unit, and they create their wild beasts and then they go to English and they create a bit of a story, and that's term one. In term one, we have these clay models from art, and then they hand them over to science in Year eight. In term two in science, they create the scientific reasoning whether or not these animals could actually exist in the real world. And then they hand it to us, and we create a Stage five drama. Year 9 and 10 students have all of these clay things laid out and they picked 10 of them to create a walking with dinosaurs type puppet show of these creatures. And then we invite kindergartens, year one and year two from all of our community of schools to come to our school and see these huge big puppets. It brings, I think, so much joy to especially science teachers who don't normally get that opportunity to see the arts in action like that. It's a whole school event because then year 11 actually come in as part of an executive team, and they give feedback to the 9/10 drama students. So, it's a really, really cool unit.

Last year, because of covid, we actually put in a podcast room literally a month before Covid hit. It was it was such good timing we got all the funding in 2019. And so, what we ended up doing was looking at contemporary theatre practice and going well, what's Windmill Theatre doing? You know what is Sydney Theatre Company doing? What's A T Y P doing? What are they doing in this space around Covid? And I said to our drama students, if this happens when you were practicing artists, what are you going to do? How are you going to respond? And so, they created audio adventures and audio packs that they could send to the families who were around. I had one girl come in during this period, and she's like, “well, Windmill Theatre Company are doing this, but they are also thinking about doing this.” And I thought, well, how do you know that? And she had rung up Rosemary Myers and had a chat to her about what they were doing in response to Covid. It was just spectacular to see these kids responding in such a very dark time for them socially to be trying to create something of joy for kindergartens, and year ones. It was really great.

Ravenna

I'm just completely inspired by both of the topics and want to be in both of your classes right now. I'm going back to Stage five drama. Yeah, amazing that both of those are about the thing that engages students, which is the exploration of their world and both of them in really challenging ways. And I think that the wonderful thing about drama students is you throw something and it seems like it might be too challenging, and that's the very thing that engages them in the learning. So wonderful. And I think you kind of touched on this a little bit Lachlan. But you know the core component of play building of group devising. I guess I'm interested in how do you teach this? I think, as a new teacher, a lot of teachers think that play building has to be taught as a discrete kind of topic that you take an approach to play building and play building is what we're studying this term. And I think there were elements Sonia in what you were talking about that are about understanding of how theatre is put together. So that kind of deconstructing and reconstructing is already going to be happening there and then in your unit, Lachlan, that's that lovely kind of cross curricular creative collaboration happening. But how do you Sonia embed those play building skills that you know are going to be needed in the stage six course into stage four and five? Do you have any hot tips or tricks for that?

Sonia

There is a place for sometimes explicitly teaching play building. You know, sometimes we do need to make sure that we are kind of scaffolding, so to speak, for our lower ability students, and it's even proven that all abilities need scaffolding these days with anxiety and things like that. Scaffolding is going to be helpful. So, I do think there's a place for that explicit teaching. But I also think that one of the things that we often forget to do in our day to day practice of drama teaching, and I know I'm definitely a culprit of this, is forget to be the person that can be sign posting what it is that students are doing in our everyday life. A lot of the time things are occurring naturally, intuitively in front of us that we just need to set aside that five minutes right after that activity to make the links for them and to say to them, this is what's going on. You could turn that devised piece into a 15 minute performance or a 10 minute performance just by adding this this and this. And so I think I've started to be a little bit more deliberate in making those connections for my students. I have this sheet that I introduced a lot of my stage four and five students to that says you are a practitioner, and it kind of outlines all the things that are happening in a drama classroom for them, and we start the year by looking at that and kind of saying, these are the things that you need to look out for because you're a practitioner, you're not just an actor. You are going to be involved in the directing and the designing and the dramaturgical decisions and the analysing and critique and all of those different things. And I find by kind of starting the year off reminding them of those things, I remind myself of those things. Then within my units of work, I'm constantly referring back to those roles, but also constantly referring back to the fact that they are practitioners creating and making theatre every single lesson.

I often find that if I give students an assessment notification for play building, they kind of go, “Oh, how are we going to get it done in the time?” And I say to them, you create whole scenes that go for about three minutes in half an hour so you can definitely create a play building piece in the time that I've given you, and just reminding them of the fact. You know as soon as we add pressure with assessment or with the HSC or whatever, a lot of the time that creativity disappears from them and they want that formula. They want that scaffold of A plus B equals my play building perfect piece but essentially what they need to do is draw on all the skills and things that we've already done. If we've embedded theatrical traditions and performance styles into the stage four and five and if we've embedded all those different roles, if we've embedded in our elements in our production elements, then they already have every single skill they need for that play building stuff. And we just need to be the ones who are explicitly showing that popping up in their face and saying, “hey, this is actually the play building that you're doing. It's happening right now and let me explain to you how you can make those links.”

Ravenna

Thanks, Sonia. It is that thing of when they get to the GP time, and suddenly they forget all the amazing work that they've done. So that sign posting is something I'm going to take away with me. Definitely. Lachlan, what's your approach to embedding the play building skills in stage four and five?

Lachlan

I agree. 100% with Sonia about the need to scaffold. The scaffold has to be everywhere. And one thing I'm very conscious of is in Stage five, particularly, is giving them the opportunity to talk as a scriptwriter, to talk as a director. So, what we do at the start of the year is I ask them to pick a role for the full class performances that they devise themselves. You know, if we're doing a bit of absurdism, they'll obviously use some script, but they then choose and say “Alright, well, for term one, I'm going to be a designer so I can learn the language of the designer.” And then you take that approach, that very heavily scaffolded approach, away so that they're blurring those lines. I've got a lanyard with the six thinking hats on it, and my drama kids presented me with the elements of drama cards because, you know, we throw it down in our classroom. I've got the cards on the wall like we all do. We've all got these things on the wall, the elements on the wall. We've got them in cards, we've got them. And I think it's just making that language that they can talk about play building clear. But then scaffolding how to have that conversation because no one is naturally good at talking about how if you manipulate the tension of relationships, you're going to create a wonderful bit of structure, you know, it's that sort of thing. I agree 100% with Sonia on moving it back into Year eight like that stage four. In that year eight, I’m sure we all have an element of drama like unit that we teach first. That's our first unit to introduce them to that. And that's probably my most heavily scaffolded unit because each lesson is dedicated to one of the elements and then they have a stimulus at the start and they see how, by just looking at the performance through a particular element, you can explore so many possibilities just by asking, how can we include tension? How can we include symbol? It just creates this this massive potential to develop that language of play building. So, I think if you can do that, then once you get to stage six, you don't have to try and re teach at all in the first three weeks of year 11.

Ravenna

Yeah. I mean, you're going over there into all of the appreciating outcomes and those being like, really visible in your classrooms through discussion and hopefully as well through some writing. But even listening to you then talking about that idea of, you know, the different hats and looking at it through the different perspective of the director, the actor, the audience member, the designer. That's exactly what's being asked a lot of the time in the written exam at HSC, which is wonderful, that that's becoming so natural in stage four and five. So, I guess I wanted to ask you then about making which I know that in your discussion about play building you know that that's exactly what they're doing. They're making and they're appreciating and they're performing all at once. But the assessment of making, um, I'm interested in how you go about making that explicit and visible to students and how you're assessing the making outcomes in Stage four in five.

Sonia

I do think making is an interesting one. I know that in stage 5, 1 of the things I've introduced as a part of assessment is a post-performance or production question time and that being part of their assessment. The high achieving kids will often freak out with this and try to prepare a speech. So, the lesson after the performance, each group will sit down, and I will give them the set of questions ahead of time. So, on the assessment notification, those questions will be given to them, and they know they could get any of those questions directed to them and I'll direct different students, different questions. Those questions are all about the making because I want them to be able to articulate after the they have performed exactly what it is that they have done to bring it to that moment. And I do find that that has also fostered a really beautiful culture of students in the stage of devising and developing as well. Because they start to talk with the language of the questions they know they're going to be asked, and they start to develop this way, this dialogue around, you know well, we need to make sure that we're integrating this, as you know, from a directorial approach, or I need to, we need to be considering tension in here because we're missing an element, and I'm sure it's tension or those kinds of things. They often will kind of object to it at first. But once you start adding those question times afterwards, as a part of their assessment about the process of making, it develops a real confidence in them as themselves as practitioners as well. And it gives them an ability to be able to reflect on their work in a non-written verbal way.

Another thing I do find that kids often will say that they hate, but in the long run is really beneficial to them, and they always remember is our performance essays. And I do find that those are really good in helping them be able to add that making element kind of into it as well. Because depending on what the performance is, or question is or what you're targeting, you can kind of bring in some of those making elements a little bit more explicitly for them to have to touch on.

Also, I have not tried this idea yet, but I have a class at the moment that is obsessed with tik tok, as they all are. And I have thought about making as a part of an assessment that each student needs to submit a tik tok style video, to explain their process behind their work because I actually think they will engage with that. Really, interestingly, I know when I've been looking at tik tok examples, there are all kinds of videos of, like how to do this or the process I took for this, which lends itself to doing a little kind of snapshot of it. So, I have kind of toyed with the idea that maybe for one of the assessments, I'll set a tik tok video on there, making as well.

Ravenna

Love a tik tok of how to build a play. It's fantastic, wonderful. So Lachlan, how do you go about assessing that component of the syllabus?

Lachlan

About two years ago, I changed the entire assessment schedule. I was quite mad. My head teacher at the time thought I was quite mad, and I had to convince the principal. But what it essentially turned in to is that each term they create portfolio that they are actually collecting their evidence. And they're thinking about what is the evidence of my making? What is the evidence of my footprint on this on this play? So, they are actively trying to each term to collect as much evidence as they can. It's a bit like our accreditation, as teachers, and annotating it. I give them the list. I give them the outcomes, and I'm like, you have to try and meet the 10 outcomes, and you need to try and talk in terms of how do you think you're meeting it? At first, the kids absolutely were disgusted by me giving them this piece of paper. How dare I? Um, that's for you, sir, not for me. But what ended up happening was that over the course of three terms, because it was tied to that performance each term, I saw students who their book work was three pages before for the whole year. And now suddenly they were filling an exercise book every single term because they were actively collecting stuff. Because the logbook was definitely something that was the weakness of the year 11 12, I moved it back into year 8. And so, this portfolio of work really took the emphasis off the fact that it was just a drama room and it was just their work, because now they were sharing bits of evidence. But you could see the highlighter where one of them made sure that this was my idea and this was my idea. And they started to talk in terms of the actual syllabus to me and talking in terms of the making outcomes, which was absolutely fantastic and they were able to connect the making and the appreciating. I think because it has always been that area of weakness for myself., if I'm being completely honest, what do you do apart from a couple of videos here and there. While they're performing, now they are actively using their phones to collect evidence. I know it's one of the most controversial things out there, but their phones become their journal, and they get it out every time to take photos, photos of each other performing. You can see them handing it around. And I have zero issues with phones in my classroom because they know that it's a tool, not an extension of their arm. And so that I think for me has been the biggest shift I've made in making has been allowing them to collect the evidence. We have a discussion at the start of that portfolio process, where they list all the possible different types of evidence that they could possibly collect to show that they have been making a footprint on the play. So, really it's still evolving. It is evolving, every year it is evolving. But the second part of that process is that after their performance, and you generally have block out all of week 10 for this, is every student gets five minutes to essentially justify where they think they're sitting in terms of, especially Stage five, where they think they're sitting on the common grade scale and they go, I think I'm here because of this, and normally they’re correct. I haven't had one student who has been wrong about themselves. So, it was really great to develop that understanding.

Ravenna

Wow, so many amazing ideas. My brain is going crazy at the moment with things that I want to start incorporating. So, that's all about asking students to justify choices and, you know, explain their impact and all that kind of stuff, which is a nice Segway to what I wanted to ask you both finally. How do we justify the choice of drama in Stage five? How do you advocate for this subject and for the learning that happens in drama, and why is it important,? You know, warm fuzzies here. Why is it important beyond that classroom as well as in the classroom?

Lachlan

It was a discussion with my principal when we started to go towards performances every term. Because like many schools, we had one big performance night every year, and that was the extent of our performances. And when I said I wanted to strip it back and have more intimate, more regular performances, it took a bit of convincing. But one thing I was very aware of was that drama has the ability to be a sustainable craft. I talk in terms of a sustainable aspect of their wellbeing that they can continue coming back to these performances. They're not going to remember the tests in 30 years. They're going to remember the experiences they made in drama. I think it's always been the case that drama and music and the arts have always been the big-ticket items with the schools.

To look at what we're doing. When I said that I wanted to move to the term by term thing I said my one promise would be that I'm going to make this a sustainable theatre company within the actual school. So, coming from a youth theatre company background where 300 bucks was a really generous budget for us for that year, it was something I really wanted to pass on also to the kids. Because again, we're the highest percentage of practicing artists outside of metro areas. And so, a lot of these kids parents are artists, are freelancers, are people involved in the industry. Even though our industry can at times be so limiting in what we offer the fact is that our practitioners are wearing many, many hats at the same time is so exciting and the fact that they can create their own opportunities to go out and create performances to go out and help sell science as a subject is amazing. The science head teacher’s working with me in trying to get drama into every single aspect of their science expo. And so, they want drama in there. Then HSIE, they want some drama in there, and so were continually finding those across KLA links. And to sum up, I guess I say that it's the oldest subject that we actually offer in our schools because you know, people didn't write going back all those years, we were telling stories and drama’s all about telling stories. That is what I think has really swayed a lot of people because it has now become a foundation where people are seeing drama with all of these skills, and all this ability to express meaning comes from drama.

Ravenna

I did get the warm fuzzy then, amazing. Sonia, Why? Why Drama? What is there beyond the classroom and in the classroom?

Sonia

Uh, look, I have so much to say about this because I have the privilege of not only seeing drama in the schools that I teach in, but also in my role as president of drama New South Wales. I have just loved seeing how much drama impacts our whole state because it's a ripple effect that kind of works in our little communities, and then you see the impact of it in the larger community as well. I think one of the most important things that we have with drama is the empathy side of things and the emotional intelligence that comes with our subject right now. There is a huge crisis in so many schools when it comes to mental health. And I think part of that reason is that we are forgetting to explore what it means to be a human and to tell the stories of what it means to be human. And drama is the subject that does that. Every single drama teacher can tell you that the kids with mental health issues kind of flock to them in their classrooms because it's a safe space where they are emotionally able to grapple with and work through what it means to live in this world. They're presented with stories of different perspectives and ideas. They have to work in groups and communicate effectively within those groups and be accepting of one another. They have to have a level of vulnerability and willingness. You kind of open up to an experience, and all of those things mean that what we are doing in drama is far more than just teaching fantastic communication skills and confidence and all of those things. They are in fact giving us young people who are going out into the world knowing how to engage with the fullness of what it means to be a human and live in this world. When we removed the arts from stem, what we are left with is formulas and concepts and ideas that are magical and beautiful. But we don't see them because we don't have the storytellers to show us how that scientific idea is magical and beautiful. And so, drama is absolutely integral in that. I also think it's integral in being a safe space for students to find and express their identities. There are very few subject areas that allow for you to kind of play with exploration of identity and drama definitely does that. And I think that that is as well in an ever-changing world where we have much more of an understanding of what identity looks like. Drama is the space that allows us to do that and look, there are studies a plenty and you can go on to different websites like Drama Australia website and find the studies about the academic influence it has and the way it builds community and so forth and so on. But I actually think, look at the state of our world right now and to look at the state of schools and to look at the state of how we are all feeling and coping with everything. In my mind, and I know I'm biased, but the answer is the arts. We have to return to the arts because that is the very heart of who we are as people. And it is that, as Lachlan said, that oldest art form that oldest thing that we return to. What do we do as human beings? We tell those stories of what it means to be human, and we have to come back to that. And we as Drama educators are the ones that know how to foster that and teach that and create students who are going out into the world as those people.

Ravenna – As the two of you were speaking about drama being the oldest form of storytelling, a kookaburra outside my house burst into hearty applause and it happened on cue as both of you referenced that. I had to share with the amazing moment. Thank you both so much for telling us about some of the topics that you love to teach in stage four and five. But most of all thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today. Lovely to speak to you both. And all the best for the term ahead.

Sonia

Thank you very much. I always love getting together with drama teachers, so thanks for the opportunity.

Lachlan

Yeah. Thank you. That was awesome.

Jackie

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team of Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email our Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor Cathryn Horvat at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au

The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

[end of transcript]

Jackie King

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all First Nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Alex Papasavvas

Welcome to the Creative Cast Podcast series. My name is Alex Papasavvas and I'm a creative arts curriculum officer with the New South Wales Department of Education. The area for discussion today is 'let's talk topics' and I'll be speaking to two visual art teachers from opposite ends of the state to hear about their approaches to programming - what activities and artists they like to use, especially early on in the stage 4 mandatory course.

My first guest is Alison Jones from Willyama High School in the remote western New South Wales town of Broken Hill. Hello, Alison. Could I get you to start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your teaching background?

Alison Jones

Hi, Alex. I am the head teacher of Creative and Performing Arts here at Willyama High School. I've been at Willyama High School for 22 - 23 years now. I originally came out west to visit a friend, and I was planning on staying for three weeks, and there must have been something about the place. I really enjoyed doing casual work at the school, so I stuck with it, and it was a great way to get a permanent job in visual arts. If anyone is interested in finding out how to fast track your way into a permanent visual arts job, it would be to definitely go beyond the Blue Mountains. So I teach visual arts and photography at Stage 4 and Stage 5 and Stage 6 levels.

Alex

Great. Thank you for that. So, we're part way through term one at the moment, and I always find the start of term one to be pretty exciting when we get to meet our new classes for the year, especially when they come into Stage 4 visual arts for the first time. For a lot of students, that might be the first time they think of or experience visual arts as a standalone subject. Alison, do you have a particular unit or activities or an artist study that you find to be really effective in that first term of the mandatory course?

Alison

We get our mandatory art students in Year 8, and we have all of their mandatory hours within Year 8, so we get to see them quite often. So we get six 53 minute periods with them in a fortnight, and we spend the first half of the term looking at learning about the frames, and we do a lot of little exercises using the elements of art so that they can start to understand how they will go together to make artworks.

Alex

So you have a lot of different, sort of smaller activities that you like to string together for the term to get them used to the studio, working with materials for the first time?

Alison

We just spend one or two lessons on an element. So, for example, the first thing we get to do is we introduce the elements of art to students and then we have them create a title page in their visual arts diaries that utilizes all of the elements to the best of their ability and then after that, we focus on one element at a time. So, we'll do an exercise with line in a black fine liner pen, where they'll be designing a page where all the hair on the face is made up of intricate lines and a variety of lines. Thick lines, thin lines, wavy lines, curvy lines just to fill up an entire page. We'll do an exercise on colour, where we do some basic colour theory with the primary, secondary colours. So, they learn about complementary colours and how complementary colours act against each other and with each other. We'll do a shape exercise where we look at Matisse's paper cutouts from later in Matisse's life, and they'll work with geometric shapes and organic shapes and all different coloured pieces of paper to create a collage. And obviously we do things with value and form and just get them to just explore all those kind of things, and that takes about half of the term. We're introducing something new for our year 8s this year that we're actually in the process of putting together and writing at the moment for the second half of the term, which we will start week after next. We're going to look at Indigenous art and the students will be producing a basketry piece where we're actually going to utilize the idea of yarning circles, we're going to get rid of the tables and chairs, and hopefully it'll be nice weather and we're able to take the kids outside, and teach them techniques of basketry.

Alex

Yeah, that sounds really exciting. So that would be the first kind of bigger project that they do at the start of that course.

Alison

Yes, it will be. So, we've not done it with them before. We've done some basketry exercises in the past when we've had Naidoc Week and other identified celebrations and things, but we've never tried it with the whole year, so it's going to be an interesting one, so we'll find out which kids have got really good fine motor skills and which ones don't. So, it'll probably be as much a learning experience for the three visual arts teachers as it will before the kids.

Alex

Yeah, that sounds really exciting. I've always really enjoyed the freedom that we have in the syllabus to just build programs out of particular artmaking techniques or artists like that, and that one sounds really exciting. This is a new artmaking sequence for you - how often do you find you refresh those early stage 4 programs?

Alison

Previously, what we had been doing and probably for about the last five years as the term 1 introductory art piece we taught the kids bookbinding. So, after the kids have made their book, we get them to research a variety of Australian artists through different time periods. We were having them find a 19th century artist, a female artist, an Indigenous artist, an artist who had originally come from Asia. So, they had to find artists that you know that they really like the work of and look into those artists' practice and make a small watercolour reproduction of the artist's work. So, we did that, and it was working really, really well, we just got to the point where we thought it was time to change it up. So, we didn't have a big emphasis on Indigenous art with our mandatory art students, and we thought that it would be about time we did that. Willyama High School has got a population of 21% Aboriginal students, so it's fairly significant and one of our CAPA teachers - she's a music teacher, but she teaches visual arts mandatory because there's only two other visual arts teachers - she's actually Indigenous as well, so definitely about time to start doing that.

Alex

Yeah, it sounds very exciting, although I have to confess that I do have a little bit of a soft spot for getting Stage 4 students to make little reproductions of famous artworks. I find that it's always a bit interesting to see what they do with it. I know this was an older program, I'm just curious. If you noticed over the years that you had quite a spread of categories there, did you find that they were often finding the same artists year to year?

Alison

There were students who needed a lot more direction, and we provided artworks for them. But the students that were much more independent were able to find a huge variety of artworks, particularly the Indigenous artwork that they chose, there was a huge amount of difference in what people were actually finding and were really interested in. For the art history and art criticism side of the course, while our main art students are learning the techniques of weaving and making some small baskets and things like that, we're going to have a look at the Tjanpi Desert Weavers. I particularly like them because I actually majored in textiles when I did my visual arts degree at the University of Wollongong, so I've always had a big interest in textiles, and I think that's probably another reason why we want to bring this into the course, because it's something that I'm good at and passionate about, and I always find it easier to teach things if you're actually passionate about them. So, the fact that it's an all women group of weavers is also great, but at the same time we'll also tie in some printmaking from the region, and we will look at Badger Bates as a fairly local artist.

Alex

One of my personal favourites Badger Bates.

Alison

Yes, I know that! And it also gives us a chance to talk a lot about the structural frame and the cultural frame with Badger Bates' printmaking especially.

Alex

One of the big things in visual arts as a subject is the use of the art diary, do you have any particular things that you've been doing with your visual art diaries in Stage 4?

Alison

Previously, we had just included in their book packs that they were getting from the office supply store, just a basic visual arts diary with the black cover and the spiral bound white pages. We still encourage students to have a physical visual art diary, but Willyama High School this year has implemented a 1 to 1 student to device ratio, and students have all been allocated lockers, and they've all got their laptops and they're responsible for picking them up in the morning and putting them away in the afternoon and charging them. So, teachers spent a lot of time last year with Covid learning to go online and teach online. We didn't spend our professional learning budget because we couldn't go anywhere, so the school decided to put the professional learning budget towards teacher professional learning with technology which we did here based at school, and teachers were all issued with Surface Pros, I think that's what they're called, I'm not sure, and we all started using Teams. We had originally in the past used Google Classroom, it was a bit of a mishmash, teachers were using all kinds of things, but it's a school thing now that we use Teams from Microsoft 365. So, we set up our class notebooks where we can keep digital copies of all the class learning activities. And all of the students have their own class notebook for each class that they have.

Alex

Ah, great!

Alison

So my students are encouraged to photograph all of the artworks that they're making on paper or in their diaries, and to upload them into a digital visual arts diary, which means that I can access what they've done and know what they're up to from anywhere. They don't actually physically have to bring a diary to school if they want to keep it at home to work in, and just work on paper at school. That was also an issue we had in the past that not all kids would remember their diaries, not all kids even went and bought diaries. So, this gives us a way of being able to make sure that each kid is on track with their learning that we're doing across the year. So that's our plan anyway, so we'll see how it goes, and so far it's been well received. The kids like having the laptops. I think they feel that they're being trusted with this device, and a lot of them are really learning a great deal of responsibility with it. There were a few hiccups at first where people were forgetting where their locker was and what their code to get into their locker was. But now we've been at it for a few weeks it's all starting to smooth out, and we get to see how it goes. It also is going to give me a chance to set up a whole lot of forms and other things that we can do through Microsoft 365 so that we can track the kids' understanding and learning so we can do quick quizzes at the end of the class, just revisiting the frames and just checking their understanding of things like that. So obviously being visual arts we can't go fully online, we still need to be able to teach the skills processes of making art, but it gives us a whole heap of tools that we didn't have before. So that's the exciting part about what we're doing.

Alex

That sounds really interesting. Are you finding that you're splitting your activities between concrete work in the diary to be recorded online and activities that start online and finish there?

Alison

Yes. Uh, when we're doing any theory work, uh, the kids can access images and questions in the class notebook. They can keep their own record of their answers. Uh, it's interesting, however, and it's a bit concerning that if we make them do all of their written work as a typed piece, that they're going to get to their HSC exam and have forgotten how to write. So, we need to find that balance between getting them to do stuff that we know they're going to have to do if they're going to go as far as the HSC in visual arts, we don't want them to forget about how to structure writing in the way that they need to be actually physically writing it down.

Alex

Yeah, really interesting. Thank you for that. Look, thank you, Alison. It's been a pleasure conversing with you today.

Alison

It's been lovely. Thanks, Alex.

Alex

So my second guest today is Sophia Kintominas - Sophia, I know you've just moved schools. Could you tell me a little about your background in art education?

Sophia Kintominas

Yeah. So I started teaching at East Hills Girls Technology High School, permanently appointed there in 2013. This year, I am working with the writing in secondary team, part of the Department of Education, on a secondment, and I'll be returning to my home school East Hills Girls in 2022.

Alex

Great. That sounds really exciting! I'll ask you to talk about some of your experiences in your substantive appointment since you were there for a few years. What I'm really interested in hearing about today is how you like to approach that first term of the mandatory course in visual arts. Now we know it can be such a great and exciting opportunity to get new Year 7 classes every year. I know I find they often come into visual arts for the first time, brimming with energy, so let me ask you what your favourite first term topics are. Is there a particular project or a set of pracs or an artist study that you found effective in harnessing that first term energy in your junior classes?

Sophia

Yeah, as you sort of point out there, you do really get a plethora of experiences that come to you in Year 7. Many students do come with that verve and energy, and some of them come with less practical experiences from their primary school education. So, we actually at East Hills Girls, we start with a unit of work, which is quite wide ranging and engaging as an introductory unit for Stage 4, which looks at the place and power of colour in art. It really harnesses, applicative and theoretical workshop, where we really start by getting the students to create a series of colour wheels and it's very much about exploring colour relativity, obviously our primary secondary tertiary colours. And we bridge that in learning about the emotionally charged Fauvist movement. We look at Henri Matisse's cut outs all the way through to sort of contemporary illustration, and in doing that in looking at those big questions about what visual art is all about and this kind of very highly visual domain that we exist within. We look at that complex, I guess, phenomenon of colour and its treatment across various perspectives. So, we look at colour not just from an art historical perspective. We also look at the way that it intersects with colour psychology, and so we get the kids to create a colour psychology wheel, if you will, made up of text. And we look at the impact of, say, various scientific innovations or discoveries of colour and how that influenced the Impressionists and all the way to Van Gogh. And then from there we really find that in that very first unit of work, where the students are creating their own digital collage which bridges together painted grounds that they produce from those introductory workshops, they produce digital painted grounds as well, using various iPad applications and manipulating paper itself to produce this really, really cool self-portrait. But within that, the way that I suppose the theoretical and the kind of practical workshops come together is that they go beyond integrating colour into their composition but they're really considering it as a means of expression. So that's how we kind of launch straight into Year 7 visual arts.

Alex

Yeah, that's really interesting and I love the way you've described using this combination of physical concrete materials as well as digital materials and then bringing those into a unified project as a portrait. That sounds really interesting. I also love that you've got the Matisse reference there because my previous guest, Alison, also referenced the Matisse cutouts as their colour activity up at Willyama which I think is quite exciting. I'm a real sucker for a collage myself, I've got quite a stash of old National Geographic magazines in my classroom that are in various states of disrepair now, having been thoroughly dissected over the years for reuse in artmaking projects. I'd like to ask, particularly with juniors, when you're blending this hands-on physical materials, visual diary work, and digital stuff, what's your approach to, I guess, the documentation of those processes in the visual diary - like we know we're all very familiar with the spiral bound visual diaries, we're very excited by the possibilities of digital work. What's your approach to keeping things sort of organised and consistent across those two spaces?

Sophia

So I would say that we very much treat them in tandem. We're quite fortunate being a technology high school that is quite a predominant feature in the way that we have students document their own practice. We don't abandon the visual diary, the visual diary is still very central to the way that we have students record their discoveries, the way that they produce their - we call it practice makes perfect annotations. We use Google Classroom as a way to get them to put together a digitization as well of their work in progress at various points. And that's really integral to the way that we sort of informally look at their work and offer strategies and that sort of thing as well.

Alex

Sure, what kind of applications do you like to use in Year 7? I mean, maybe this is a bit over the top, I like to dive straight into Photoshop, but do you have another approach?

Sophia

So the students in Year 7 they come in with ipads, so we tend to use sketchbook, which emulates most functions of Photoshop. It's also a free app, which is really quite important to our ethos as public educators in that stage 4 unit, giving them that accessibility. They learn about those ways that you approach creating a work using layers, that sort of thing, which I think is a nice way, that sort of stepping stone, if you will to, um, Photoshop and such.

Alex

Yeah, because I know Photoshop can sometimes be a bit intimidating. It's quite complex, I've had a lot of lessons where I've tried to just sort of go step by step in Photoshop in a class setting, and it works - if everyone can stay on the same step at the same time.

Sophia

Yeah, absolutely.

Alex

Yeah, so I think that's really valuable, particularly with stuff like even just knowing what layers are and how to use them to then jump up to a full, bigger, more complex program. Very interesting. Do you have any other particular favourite activities that you like doing with juniors?

Sophia

Yeah, a whole heap actually. I think integral to year 7 we're all about building upon prior knowledge and really building a kind of fundamental vocabulary and technical workshops, if you will, that focus on the elements of art. So, after we look at self-portraiture through the lens of colour, we sort of then move on to looking at line and tone and texture and material handling. And this helps us launch into, I guess, an investigation into practice of artists who use line in ways that, that I guess go kind of beyond, say, typical academic convention, but we kind of get the kids to see that it's used in so many different ways across art. So, what we do is we get them to create like an acrylic painted portrait of a sitter in a domestic setting, a domestic interior, and it really focuses on that application of tonal value and kind of energetic line really inspired by Van Gogh's kind of iconic sanctuary versus asylum sort of bedroom painting. And that's all building upon their prior knowledge of the expressive and emotionally charged Fauvist movement. And we also look at the idea of the kind of like indelible line and how line has kind of taken this like revolutionary departure from sort of naturalistic drawing, but that it can be used to make some really hard-edged mark making. And so, we get the students to do kind of like a range of mixed media portraiture as well using watercolour ink, fine line pigment markers really kind of like Egon Schiele meets Del Katherine Barton stuff as well, which they love. And, yeah, I guess in Year 8 we do things a little bit differently because of the constraints of the time table, as it were. But in Semester 1 - we have a Places and Spaces Australia focus, and we look at a variety of artists from our kind of local milieu. We look at Mechelle Bounpraseuth, artists who are part of that scene, if you will, that they make beautiful ceramic work. We also do a unit called Our Imprint, where we create monotypes and collagraphs and lino with a focus on the environment and sustainability. Looking at key artists who deal with those ideas as well.

Alex

Great. This is all really interesting. Thank you. I might just ask quickly. I mean, you referenced when you're talking about the start of the Year 7 course doing all these different little activities, including cutups and things like that, Do you find that kind of work helpful to get them out of that head space of like a drawing has to be perfect, otherwise it will be destroyed by making them do unfamiliar things you know to build skills before you actually get them to try and tackle a project?

Sophia

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think it is important to work incrementally, to work iteratively in those ways. I think it's so good if you can get them to kind of work in in technical workshops, where they get to really experiment with the material devoid of any kind of extrinsic factors like assessment, so to speak. It's really nice to give students those opportunities and almost get them to sort of see it as stepping stones that will support them in artmaking that ensues later in that particular unit of work. I love what you just sort of said before about, you know, drawing and stuff. I think I've always found in teaching drawing that students can get so fixated on the idea of like if I'm not a prodigious drawer like I can't I can't do it. And I think training observation in drawing as a science as much as an art is so helpful in getting kids to sort of see that if you break down your assumption of what you're drawing, you get less overwhelmed you know, 'Oh, my gosh, I can't draw that nose' and' I can't draw that eye', but you get them to speak to it in a very different way and say, okay, just don't think of it as drawing an eye but think of it as these two kind of elliptical lines that join each other and these concentric circles in the centre. And then they start to realize that that they can actually draw what they see. And then that gives them the I suppose impetus to them be able to draw in a way that is, um I suppose, more, um fluid or experimental. When they feel like that, they can take observations from the kind of 3D plane and translate them in the 2D. So, when you do a lot of sort of have a big emphasis on not making assumptions when we're drawing, that's a big part of what we sort of instil. I think it's important for their self esteem.

Alex

Yeah. And that 'draw what you can see', I think, is such a popular refrain in classrooms as well. So, thank you so much. Sophia for sharing your interest and enthusiasm for art education with us. It's been a pleasure chatting to you.

Sophia

Thank you very much for having me.

Alex

Thank you for tuning into Creative Cast and we will see you next time.

Jackie

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team of Secondary Learners, Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email our Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor Cathryn Horvat at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

[end of transcript]

Jackie King

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate off the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all First nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Alex Manton

Welcome to the creative cast podcast series. My name is Alex Manton and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Officer at the New South Wales Department of Education. The area of discussion for this podcast is let's talk topics and today, we'll be exploring some selected topics chosen by music teachers for Stages four and five and how they implement these in the classroom in their respective schools. So our first music teacher today is Tahnee Arnold, and she is what we call a super educator. She's based in Broken Hill. Over the last two years, she's taught music, drama, dance and visual arts at Willyama High School, which is located in the remote community of Broken Hill, New South Wales. Tahnee studied at the Central Queensland Conservatory, specializing in music theatre and holds a master of teaching. She's particularly passionate about creating performance opportunities for students in the local community. Our second music teacher today is Kerri Lacey from Kirrawee High School in Southern Sydney.

Kerry Lacey was trained as a bassoonist at the Queensland Conservatory and worked with many professional orchestras in her early years before moving to New South Wales and joining the National Chamber Orchestra and Trade Winds Quintet. Kerry then started working with the Department of Education, New South Wales, in 1991 and is currently the music teacher music coordinator at Kirrawee High School, which is located in the Shire south of Sydney. She believes her purpose in life is to teach people of all ages to be more passionate about music. Her time and energy is invested into building mega music departments and wants to see is many Children as possible get involved in music so welcome, Kerry and Tahnee. Thanks for joining us today. First, are you able to share with us just a little bit about your school, including the role that music plays within your school culture?

Kerry Lacey

Sure, Kirrawee High School is has an overarching banner called Measured by Achievement. That's our motto. And underneath that, we have something called signature strengths. So the signature strength. We have resilient learners, respectful global citizens and responsible and engaged students. So under those three banners, those three signature strengths, we have at Kirrawee. The music department has developed three pillars, and our pillars of creativity, collaboration and kindness. So within our school, the music department is an independent block from the rest of the school because it doesn't live within a big block. So it's sort of off to the side of the school. The student's playground is all around it. We have a COLA, so within the school community, it has a very high visual position. So there's lots of music coming out of it. Many children hang around the block and play instruments outside of the block. So as far as the students in the school of concerned, music is a big part of the school community. We often say that the Kirrawee high school musos are rock stars because they come from other schools where music doesn't have quite the same. I don't want to say high status, but the kids are proud to be involved in the ensembles. The kids are proud to be in a member of the music department.

We have over 1200 kids in the school. Of that, over 180 are in the music department in some way, shape or form in either ensembles or electives, mainly in the ensembles. And we have all elective classes from elected nine and 10, right through to 11 and 12, obviously and 7 and 8 mandatory. So it's an extensive department.

Alex

Fantastic sounds like a very vibrant community.

Kerry

It is. The department itself just sits between like it's at the back of the hall. So when you look at the actual physical space or the physical layout, there's ramps that come up to our veranda. Between our building and the hall used to be this big garden, they've just completely cut that down. And what they've done is created a teaching space. It's fake grass, and the kids now all starting to gather there and sit there and talk during recess and lunch. So when you see the block, it's a very welcoming place. It's a very vibrant, as you say, place for kids to come, so they feel very happy and comfortable there.

Alex

What about you, Tahnee?

Tahnee Arnold

So we have just over 500 students at our school. We also have about 20% indigenous. We do have quite a large portion of the school from low socioeconomic backgrounds. We have a very diverse cohort, and many other students do not really have a lot of knowledge in music and think we have. Like in the last two years, we've had one student who played the violin so any orchestral music that's not what our students are after. They're looking for popular music, but it's an essential part of the school. In the last few years, we've had a few students said, you know, have achieved band six is which is great. So the students who do work really hard and there're other students were looking up to them and wanting to be like those students. And the ones who are performing at assemblies and doing those kinds of activities. They don't have a great foundation for music when they come. There's not that many teachers or students outside of school who get private tuition, or the families may not have the finances to support those student's passions. But before school, recess, or lunch we always have students in our rooms, in the staff room, wanting that space so they can practice and better their skills. Yeah, I think it is pretty cool, but definitely very driven, like the students who want to participate in the music program.

Alex

Great. So what sort of instruments do your students play Tahnee? What are they into?

Tahnee

Yes, so I'm a vocalist predominantly, so I love working with vocalists. Quite a few of them coming through, guitars, bass drums. But yes, your standard kind of pop/rock musicians coming through. Yeah.

Alex

Kerry. What topics do you teach in stages Four and five at your school? And how do you teach them? How do you plan?

Kerry

We have just completed our first five-year plan of change would be the best way to describe it and we reconfigured all of stage four and five topics. We have a variety of students who come to the school with some background music and some that don't. And like Tahnee's school, we have some kids. We have a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds; we're very proud of the fact that we provide a free ensemble program at the school. So what we did, what we wanted to do was connect the ensemble program to the senior curricula and build to develop the music 2 and music one students' skill set in year 11. So what we did was we worked backwards. So for Stage four, we introduced drumming. That was one of the first things that needed to be introduced because we didn't have any drumming of any sort. The rooms were very subdivided when I first got there; they had composition happened on this day, and performance happened on this day. There wasn't all across curriculum across integrated teaching happening. So what we did was we introduced African drumming in year seven. Then they do skill tech of guitars. They do keyboards, and then they do music and animation, which is a technology unit. Then, in year eight, we introduced Japanese drumming. So we spent four years buying these Japanese drums overextended budget, So we introduced Japanese drumming. We then introduced Launchpad as an app on their iPads; we then introduced small ensembles and gaming. And so, in year seven, we were focusing mainly on rhythmic drive. We're focusing particularly on word banks and end of units. We were looking at developing their ability to be creative from a composition perspective in groups and collaboration to put that together. Then we get to Stage five, and we focus specifically on certain things that we needed for music two. So they do Beatles. They do musical theatre. Then they do side projects. They do jazz stomp, and then they just showcase for their parents and then for year 9 it's all about harmony chord functions and things like that. In year 10, they do minimalism, film music and then they do their showcase for parents. They will then do Australian music, small ensemble and decide their projects at the end. So they're all about fragmenting development by the use of texture, all that sort of thing. So that's kind of how we structured those that that flow through from 7 to 10.

Alex

Wow. And so do you have a pretty big music to cohort?

Kerry

Yeah, So we've been very fortunate. When I first got that, we had one, sometimes one year, nine class, sometimes two, year nine classes. But it only a year 10 class. Now we've been getting two year nine, two year 10. So our numbers for music two and music one have been building, which is nice most of the time in music two we have about we've had eight or 10 kids. Now we're getting 13 to 16 kids in that cohort and then the music ones have been usually big that this year there are 18 in year 11. So I've got 16 in music two and 18 year 11 in music one.

Alex

So, from a practical perspective, Kerry, how do you manage 30 year 7 kids drumming?

Kerry

Enough drums for every kid. And there were these packs that we could buy that had 15 Djembes there the smaller Djembes, so that was pretty affordable. We purchased 1 year and we bought one pack the following year. So then we ended up with 30 Djembes. We've got them stored in like one of those pigeonhole cupboards. It goes along the wall, so all of those kids play djembes, and we have some bigger ones that were used. We bought some dun duns, but again, this was over three years. We budgeted to buy this stuff because it was a target was a particular target. And all the kids play the African drums. So they all learned to do the bases and the tones. They learn all the rhythms we teach rhythms using fruit. Don't laugh. Don't laugh that we teach them using fruit mangoes. OK, we use, we use mangoes, we use pineapples. We use, um, watermelons. We use water, the mango. That's fun. So we use fruit names to help the year seven's learn their rhythms and patterns. We do things in cells, so we teach them in two beats or teach them in four-beat patterns. So watermelon plum, we'll do watermelon plum, mango plum. That will teach them in block patterns for African drumming. And we do the same thing with the Japanese. We spent it took us three years to get the drums, but we only have. We have the daiko. We have one daiko, we have two hira daikos and then we have five Shime Daiko. So that is what we call a class set. And so we rotate the Children on those in groups. That's how we manage it and those that aren't doing that. They are on tyres if you can believe it. Go-cart tyres. Yeah, you get those, and you wrap them in like a gaffe Plastic. Like that hard gaffe, you can get from office works. Wrap them in that you could wrap them in base plastic and then wrap them in that and they are fantastic as djem as djembes and also as daikos and things they make great sounds. Kids can beat them up. Nobody you know can't do anything to break them or anything like that.

Alex

Fantastic. How did you come up with that, Kerry? I have to say I haven't heard that one before.

Kerry

I'm very blessed that I have a colleague of mine, Dave Manual, who does a lot of Taiko drumming around the place. And he's the one that said to me, Kerry, get the go-kart tyres on. You can get them for free at a lot of places. There'll be places that are tossing at go-kart tyres. They are small enough to get them the relative size that they're easy for kids to manage. You could take them outside, and nothing happens to them, and it's great works well and of course garbage bins, garbage bins too. So you pack the garbage bin lid with like a thick felt, the super thick felt and then coat it with the same, I guess OK, and a. So long as the kids don't hit it with the taiko sticks. That's good because if you hit him with the taiko sticks, you break the garbage bins, and so you got bits of garbage bin everywhere. It's bad you don't want that.

Alex

Oh, wow. And Tahnee, what do you teach in stage four and five.

Tahnee

So I have so far taught stage four it. But I'm just starting to Stage five. So I've got what I've got planned? Not yeah, 100% consolidated. But in year seven. We break concepts down, so in term one, we look at tone colour and duration the way we look, a tone colours is through the instruments in the orchestra. We are looking at each of those families, what the materials those instruments made out of? So why they make those sounds? Why, what the size of the instrument, how that effects pitch of the instrument. And then also we look at duration. So I find that seems to be one of the most complex concepts for the students to digest. So we start any kind of rhythm work right at the start of term one. In term two, we look at the piano find that's the easiest way to teach pitch. We also look at expressive techniques, and then term three we're looking at composition. We also looked at the guitar, looking at structure and texture. And then by the time we get to term four, they've got enough information to start their ensembles, and we begin to put them together in a band.

Alex

So do they, sort of you, have guitars and percussion?

Tahnee

So term 1, when we focus on percussion drums, tambourine and then yeah term two we have a new set of keyboards that is very focused entirely on that. Then guitar term three.

Alex

And then you're putting it all together term 4. Is it challenging with teaching the orchestral family when they have never seen those instruments before?

Tahnee

They're very interested. We were looking at the woodwind family today, and we do have some of the instruments in at the school. Still, usually, students don't wanna play with them. And I think with the flute, And they're like, Oh, my God, do we have one of those of the school? And I got it out so they could see what it looked like. It was quite exciting for them. They're just not exposed to those kind of instruments. So I remind them, as well in like, you know, you do watch TV, and you'll notice like in a lot of ads there is classical music. So even like the building of the repertoire that we listen to, I'm like this will be familiar to you, so it's good too, I guess, to see where these sounds being produced from?

Alex

So what are some of your student's favourite activities? Um, that really engage them in their learning, Tahnee?

Tahnee

They like anything with a little bit of competition. We have this one little activity that's called 'Smack it'. So divide them into teams. So this is after they've learned where the notes are on the stave, and so they compete against each other and have a magnet each - dividing the classroom in two. And who, which other side of the room gets the most points wins. So I'm like, OK, show me where a C is on the stave, and then they've got a race to be able to show me where C is, or whatever the note happens to be, or if you divide them into teams was all right. So we're going to do a quiz. So we can test your music theory knowledge. Still, also I mean, mostly, it's performing like but, yeah, most favourite thing is always performing. That's the first thing they ask you when they when you get to the classroom. We performing today. Are we doing prac?

Alex

How about you, Kerry?

Kerry

My kids love to. My year sevens and eights, they're like yours. They come running to the block, and they just want to get their hands on things. We do a lot of play, learn strategies, and play first before we learn many things and use card systems. So we have, like, component card. So there are word banks for each of the units. And so, for example, African drumming. Let's say they learn ostinatos or cross-rhythms, they know call and response. They learn a variety of things, and so we'll give them these card things. And also then you've got 10 minutes to compose something, using those things then come back and play. They like playing for each other in groups scenarios. When it comes to that sort of thing, they don't enjoy so much playing by themselves. However, they do like the challenges. So we do set challenges to our kids. For example, the guitar unit they do is what we call the personal best unit. So the students have levels so that the level seven systems, they worked through the levels and they aim to get as high through the level system as possible, and they're rewarded for various things that they love to come in and go. I'm on level five. Look at me. Oh, I'm fabulous, you know, and so they like to show each other like to play for each other. It's one of the things they do love to do. Anyway, the stage five kids just want to play in groups. That's just what they want to do. They want to play with their friends. They want to play in small groups.

They want to have the chance to create and write and, you know, use the skill sets that would give them. But the problem is, there's never enough room. That's the biggest issue. Yeah, no, You know, trying to have you got a class of 30 in year nine or a class of like, I haven't got a class of 20 with two sets of classes, ones in their tens, class of 20 and even getting them to do stuff like that are hard. There's not a lot of room in the place of the room.

Alex

You just mentioned creating and writing; Kerry, how do you specifically implement composition into stage four and five? And how do you introduce the concept of notation to your students? Because I think that some teachers find that a challenge or that we don't feel well equipped to teach composition, for whatever reason, um, how do you approach it in your classroom?

Kerry

Well, composition to us is creating, so we don't use the word composition. We tend to side of the kids. I want you to create this from this stimulus. So because they're used to that in other subjects, they used to other subjects saying here's a Here's some stimulus. Do something with that, you know? So I tend to talk to the students and say to them, Look, here is some elements I want you to write. I want you to create something that uses this, this, this, this and this and we give them a checkoff. And like I said, it comes back in the Stage four and five to those word banks because we're trying to teach them the terminology like fragmenting addition, subtraction, whatever the thing is that we're doing. So we tend to try and create composition, composition activities that more collaborative creative stimulus pieces, I suppose. And we also do a lot of playing of compositions. So, we do things like the year 10s are doing minimalism, for example, to play small group arrangements of tubular bells. Koyaanisqatsi. They'll do clapping music, and then they have to go and create their version of whatever we just played. So now apply the skills that you learned. Let's extract all the information we have. Here's our word bank. Go and use that. Make me something create me something. They'll play it for me. You know, play it for your team. Play it for your class, play it for whoever, whether it be outside, Year eight or outside banging on guitars. Let's go and play for them, you know. And so that's sort of how we deal with composition.

Alex

That's great, do your students, enjoy that process, Kerry?

Kerry

Very much so. It was interesting. When I first got to the school, I had the Year 11 music one team and the school had a room full of computers, a room full of keyboards. This rehearsal room and composition was always done at a computer, which did my head. I got to say because composition for me has always been done on an instrument. I've always sat down at an instrument or I've always used an instrument to compose. So I found that quite surprising. So when I, me being me, rocked into the year 11 class and gave them three pieces of stimulus and said, 'Here we go, here's three pieces of stimulus, create something from that.' And I kid you not, those kids stood there and had no idea what to do. They could not create something from it. They said, 'What do you mean?' And I said, Excuse me. 'What? What do you mean, what do I mean?' And I said, Well, that's a chord progression, and that's a rhythm, and that's a technique. Can you try and put them all together? And they went, What now? Yeah, now's good, and then it was.

But we're not in Music Room one, and I said, 'You have to be a music room one to do it?' and they went, 'Yeah, because that's where the computers are', and I just I sat back on the chair, and I just went 'You're kidding me'. So that whole culture of creating in that level has to start at year seven. So I find for me teaching them the content, like the rhythmic patterns in cells teaching them the actual words the nature of things like your call and response to your ostinato and stuff like that that helps them to give them something that they understand concrete that they can then put together. And I love creating; kids love to play and create. So it works well for us.

Alex

That's great, Kerry, how about you, Tahnee?

Tahnee

One of the first composing activities we did with students is just did parodies working with the lyrics. Oh, yeah. OK, you're going to use the same melody, same chords, and one of the year's seven classes. They come up. This was during Covid lockdown as well. So they chose 'Let it Go' from Frozen. And they wrote, I know, wrote a song, and instead of 'Let it Go' it was like, 'Hear us play, hear us play' because So it was pretty sweet. They're very excited. Yeah, um, that's brilliant. They love that they got right into it and they're got into groups too. Sometimes it's scary. I find, like, one on one. But if they've got a group, OK, you get you do this line, and then I'll write, I've got the next one bounce off each other. As far as like, the actual assessment goes, do a little portfolio, and it does start with OK, let's write an Ostinato in 4/4 let's write one in 3/4 OK, so now let's write four ostinatos. So let's do polyrhythms. OK, so let's look at what that looks like layered and then the next activity, uh, is OK. Now let's look at a pentatonic scale.

How can we create a melody from this scale? So right, you can only use these notes. So super scaffolded and directed questions, which makes it easier for them to address. Even to the point of like, so on this bar, you must use the third note, and the bar must be C or whatever it happens to be and then for the final activity. So they got, like, a pretty good basis and an idea of what they're doing, and we then choose like little rhymes. And one of them was '12345 once I caught a fish alive' and brought in a bit of literacy into the activity, so break these words down into the syllables. You now have to create a rhythm with this amount of syllables. And so that was the first step. And then the next step would be then, so now let's add a melody with that. Once we get to year 8, I start to look at maybe adding some chords, but I'll give them chords. They're like, OK, now let's add a melody on top of that. And, um, you know, I'm planning on doing a similar thing. Year 9 Music actually, I think I might do choose Australian Song. Then we're gonna look at a range, yeah so maybe each might choose something like, Waltzing Matilda. I now let's put in a different key, right now let's put a different melody on top, then getting to year 10 like you're saying, I love the idea of stimulus. And for me, I think film is like such a great stimulus. So pick a scene from a movie or giving them some short films going. OK, so let's create something that will enhance the mood for this thing.

Kerry

Oh, it should do. When you talk about Australian music which we do when studying small ensembles in year 9, I give them several songs. They have to put it into a different style with that particular Song, like reggae or a disco, which has a structure and a form. Yeah, so, therefore, they learn how to deconstruct chords and reconstruct them in the patterns that work incredibly well. The other idea about while you were talking with the Australian music one - I was going to ask you a question. Do you have kids ask you why do we not use those two notes on a pentatonic scale? Why do we not use number four and number seven?

Alex

That's a great question, Kerry.

Tahnee

They don't.

Kerry

Mine do! They ask, 'What's wrong with four and seven?' and I say to them, 'Well, they're not good notes together, they don't play well together. And so I play them, and they are like oh no.

Tahnee

I was reading through the questions before this, and I was like, Oh, which activities do your students like? And I was, like, thinking about that, because sometimes I have a, like, a good lesson and like, yeah, they do all the right things, and I'll finish the lesson. And I'm like, Oh, like, was that good? You know, you want to do similar activities like this. They might actually like - oh, no, that was actually a bit boring. And, uh, OK, it means you're lovely, compliant students. And, like, we got done what we needed to do, but yeah, I think that's like, Yeah, I do find my students are pretty. They're pretty accepting and, like, quite compliant in general. There. OK, well, she said so. So it must be, you know.

Alex

At least they're open Tahnee.

Kerry

Yeah. Being educated, it is. And they're the ones you want too. Because my kids are not, they're not short in making statements. So, for example, why do we not use those two notes. You know, they're always asking lots of questions. Why? Why are we doing this?

Well, because of this, I'm very good at answering the why questions these days.

Alex

And so. Let's talk about the mandatory topic, Australian music. Who are your favourite artists or pieces that you like to explore with your students?

Kerry

Where do you start where these questions it is? You know, I was listening to Classic FM yesterday while in the car because I like to listen to that at times and there was this piece by Iain Grandage, and I didn't record, I didn't write down the name of the work, but it was It used muted trumpet. And I thought I'm going to find out. I'm going to find that work because it was fantastic. So for me, though, we do The Rabbits, and the kids love that program. They do. So we do that one. We do Lior as well in year 10 and Edwards. We do Elena Kats Chernin, and we do Stanhope. So we do cover quite an extensive range of that music to the starting composers that they're going to meet when they're in music two. But we pick up Australian music throughout the rest of the 7 to 10 program. So we have key pieces that we've put in to like guitar. You know, we've got some guitar pieces by Australian artists. We've like, obviously Tommy Emmanuel, and people like that. We've got some keyboard works that we've tossed in there through with the year sevens and the year eight. We toss some things in the launchpad and the gaming. So particularly the gaming. This is some wonderful orchestra works with gaming, something you can do. So we've peppered it throughout the program. So there every year encounters Australian music in some way, shape or form. The latest edition is William Barton. We're doing a bit of work there, which is good, so we just need to find a didgeridoo player at the school.

Tahnee

One of my favourite artists also pieces is I like Paul Jarman. He's piece Warri and Yatungka was because I love the narrative accompanied by that piece of music and when I am Indigenous. I'm Ngemba. My people are from Brewarrina. So I'm very passionate about teaching indigenous perspective in schools in a respectful way. And I did have a year seven come up to me, and they like narrative, and it's an excellent way for them to connect with the content. So we'll listen to the peace, and we talk about the story and the yearning for each other, the love story. Then they focused. And then we break it down and give them super year seven. So super scaffolded sheet OK to me. You know, picture the other artists I'm listening to a lot is Thelma Plum. Well, lately, I think she's pretty cool. I love my, uh, because I love musical theatre—Big Tim Minchin fan.

Kerry

Of course not always appropriate, but very good, but fine. Yes, Miss Matilda Matilda content. But yeah.

Alex

Got one final question for you both. Why is music important to your students?

Kerry

If you would ask my kids why music's important to them, particularly the Concert Band kids, which is my 7 to 10 kids; they would say to you, particularly after last year, it's 'what makes them breathe'. It's what makes them believe it's what makes them feel like they belong and they're alive. And I think last year, in particular, I watched my year 9, 10 and 11 students stop breathing. They stopped living; uh, they struggled. Our kids struggled with no rehearsals online. I mean, we gave them all sorts of things that were totally different, and they all came, and they all complied because they were desperate to play and desperate to sing. And my vocal team, who I had for the first time this week, all the first thing they said to me after they sang the first song, they're saying one of them said like there was dead silence. One of them said, 'I'm finally alive' that was one of the year 10 kids, and my heart nearly broke. I just thought, Oh, poor, kids. But for them, I have this little social subculture, and it's all about music for them, and their world revolves around that block and around that cola and around that area. And when it was taken from them, it ceased to exist for them, the vibrancy of what goes on in their lives, they stopped breathing. So that's how important music is to the kids in our department and the kids we see that come through our block, which is just of the best things in the world to watch it.

Alex

How bout you Tahnee. Why is music important to your students?

Tahnee

It's a safe place for our students, as a CAPA department in general. Wellbeing is probably at the forefront for us. We do have those students who excel. But most importantly, music just provides a very safe place where they could be themselves. And, you know, they might just play like a melody in an ensemble piece, like, you know, one finger-like technique. Maybe not like great whatever. But it doesn't matter. It's just about being a part of that community and being there with their friends and feeling safe in a part of the group, and I think I think it's probably a little bit of escapism as well. We are so isolated here in Broken Hill, so it definitely, yeah, I guess it could be pretty transformative. I've felt that. I'm from the northern rivers where it's green and lush, and there are music and dance everywhere, and here there's not quite as much. When they come to school, there is always that place in those two music rooms where they can go and yeah have some peace. And this, yeah, safe place.

Kerry

I think it's like that in so many schools. You know, there's not one school I've taught in that that does not exist. The music department is like this Garden of Eden in the middle of of these schools. It's fascinating to see how music departments can draw things out of kids; you know, kids come to us. Some kids come to us because they want somebody to find stuff in them. They want us to find magic in you, you know, and that's for all those music teachers out there, and I'm sure they will all agree with Me. That's why we do what we do. That's why we stayed until 6:30 at night. And that's why we're up at 6:30 in the morning and with the school. And that's why we're running the musical. And that's why we're doing all those things. Because to watch that one kid and that light bulb go off, and they just have that moment of magic. And they were a rock star, you know, it's just it's fun. Wonderful. It's the best job in the world.

Alex

Thanks so much for talking with us today and for sharing your ideas about what you teach at your respective schools. I'm sure that the listeners will have many new ideas to take back to their classroom. But most of all, I think you've pinpointed why music is essential to our students, and that's why we do what we do. So thanks, Kerry. Thanks, Tahnee. Catch you next time.

Jackie

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining the Statewide Staff Room as a source of all truths regarding curriculum or email our curriculum advisor Cathryn Ricketts Horvat using the email address creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

[end of transcript]

Jackie King

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all first nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom. Welcome to the creative cast podcast series for 2021. My name is Jackie King, and I'm a creative arts project advisor for the New South Wales Department of Education. Today we're going to meet the Creative Arts Curriculum team and learn about the people behind the support for creative arts teachers across New South Wales. Hi, everyone. And welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have a few really special announcements for our listeners today, but to kick this off, I'm going to introduce first our 7 to 12 Creative Arts Curriculum Adviser, our fearless leader, Cathryn Horvat. Hi, Cath.

Cathryn Horvat

What an exciting introduction.

Jackie

Thanks so much for joining us today and being here; I know you're super busy. Still, I wanted you to be the person to introduce our biggest piece of news. And obviously, that is because now we have a huge team of people to introduce to our listeners. Are you able to explain to our listeners a little bit about our team and what that will mean for our creative arts teachers across New South Wales?

Cathryn

It's my absolute honour, Jackie. So thank you for letting me have this time to do it. It's my absolute honour to introduce the team today because our team has been incredibly small. For four of the last five years now, I was actually on my own. It is now a great honour to say that we have an incredible six people here to support the creative arts curriculum delivery in schools. So what are our main what are our roles? What do we do? What can we do for you? So we are here to provide advice and support in planning for effective teaching and learning. We advise on curriculum, implementation and design. We also give advice for incorporating the use of technology in your pedagogy and through assessment. Some of the other things we do on a different level is advice on policies and directions—strategic advice to our stakeholders. We also create and generate support materials, resources and professional learning for you all, but here to help you in any way we can to help with the effective delivery of those wonderful syllabuses in the best subjects in the world.

Jackie

The best subjects in the world, even though I'm probably sitting in front of six people who were extremely biased about those subjects.

Cathryn

There's no bias about it. Our 13 syllabuses are the best in the curriculum. We all know.

Jackie

Absolutely. So let's introduce this team. Can we actually start with you, Cathryn? So, Cathryn, you are the 7 to 12 creative arts curriculum advisor. When you were in school, what was your main subject and what is your passion within education?

Cathryn

My main subject when I was in school was a drama teacher, and drama marker and drama was my real passion. I didn't ever think when I was growing up; I wanted to be a drama teacher. I grew up in a musical family, but I fell into the role of drama teaching, and that's where I found just my place. But I did. I was a year advisor and held various other leadership positions at schools as well. Still, I also taught entertainment and music as well and English and a little bit of English. But drama was my main passion. I love the creative arts because it gives any child anywhere a place and helps them find and be who they are. And so that is my passion. I was one of those kids in high school where I wasn't a happy kid. I didn't fit in, and I wasn't a very academic student, and I really found my place and my safety net through the creative arts. If it wasn't for the creative arts, if it wasn't for the teachers, if it wasn't for the extracurricular activities, if it wasn't for any of that, I don't think I would have stayed at school. So my passion for teaching and my passion for what we do stems from that. And I guess it's always led me down that teaching journey of helping identify and give those kids that don't know who they are a chance to embrace their creative outlet. Where they can express themselves, a place where they feel welcome and free to be who they are within that classroom. While achieving excellent academic goals. I guess that's my main passion is trying to get teachers across the state even higher than teachers, to see the value and importance of our contribution to the world in helping shape the human inside of that student and giving them the chance to be.

Jackie

Well, I'm going to think I'm going to cry at that. That is so important. And I think that's one of my main motivators to give all students a place, and you're right. So many students find their home within the creative arts, which is important,

Cathryn

Totally. And if we think about especially what's happened with the Covid-19 Pandemic and we had to change the way we interacted the arts became the driving force of being able to connect and express ourselves in a time where we were so limited to do that. And that just goes to show some of the power that that we have in the importance of the arts is the subject is that it can still give us that chance to look after our wellbeing.

Jackie

Yeah, fantastic. I'm going to move now to Kathrine Kyriacou, who is our 7 to 12 visual arts advisor. Hi, Kathy. Thanks for being with us today. Hi, Jacki. Thank you. Our listeners had already heard from you once before because you delivered a fantastic podcast last year with some visual arts teachers. With Stage five, we called it Dive into visual arts or something like that. Yes, we did and it was fantastic. Can you please tell us a little bit about yourself? Obviously your subject is visual arts, but a little bit about your background and your passions for education?

Kathrine Kyriacou

So I've been teaching for about 25 years. I've taught in a range of systems here, and I've taught in the UK, mostly here in New South Wales. I've also taught in university settings as well. My passion for education, I've long been involved in visual arts education in terms of sharing in professional learning through my involvement with the Professional Association in New South Wales. I get a real buzz from sharing ideas with other people and, you know, inspiring change in classrooms through working together and have always found that I'm able to invigorate what I do with my students by learning from what other people are doing with their students and sharing the best ideas. And I've always wanted to be a part of that, I guess very much like Cathryn just said, I also obviously have found that visual arts is a subject that challenges students. It challenges them through their hearts and through their hands and through their heads as well. And that's really exciting, you know, as a teacher, always, one of my most sort of beautiful moments was that moment where you have a kid in a class who's slouching down and you're watching them and they're slouching down. And you know that the lesson content and the things you're sharing with them has just slowly made them move forward in their seat and sit up and listen in and that you've hooked them. That for me, is an absolute pleasure and one of the things that I love about being in the classroom. And so it's an absolute privilege to be in a position now where I can talk to other teachers about that very regularly and remind them of good ways to make that happen more often.

Jackie

Beautiful, so engaging students and sharing, which is really important. That's so much about what this podcast is about, and also the statewide staff room and and what our roles are about too is sharing and sharing of ideas. So I'm going to move now to our creative arts curriculum officers. And we are so lucky this year to have three creative arts curriculum officers who will be creating some fantastic resource materials for you and also professional learning to assist creative arts curriculum delivery statewide. So our first creative arts curriculum officer is Alex Papasavvas. Alex Papasavvas, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Can you share a little bit about yourself in the same way that both Katherine's have?

Alex Papasavvas

Thank you so much. I was probably always destined for teaching my mum is a teacher. I know that's a very common story in this profession. There's a lot of teachers in my family, and I came to visual arts, I think, in a roundabout way, as well. I was, I really saw myself as a musician in high school. I was doing elective music, and when it came time to transition into the HSC, my school wasn't willing to offer Music one, and I wasn't willing to do much music theory. So I thought, OK, visual arts, I can have a creative outlet and see how that goes. Turns out I loved it and every new bit of information and every new art making technique that came through in that course I just jumped onto, and it really inspired me in a way that I'd I didn't think, you know, it was my thing at the time, and that continued for me throughout tertiary study and every time as visual art teachers, we have to really be generalists in the studio. We have to know a bit of everything to carry our students through painting, drawing, sculpture, printmaking, ceramics, photography, digital media, the lot. And it was just such a pleasure being able, having that privilege to go to art school and learn all of these great new techniques and get so inspired all the time. So in terms of my professional trajectory, I left Sydney very early to pursue opportunities in rural and remote New South Wales, and I haven't been back to Sydney to work since then. So, for me, a real passion is some of the particular issues that we have in rural and remote settings and very much with working with Aboriginal students, which has been such a huge part of my career. And teaching is supporting those communities and those students in schools. And that's something that I really think is very important

Jackie

Fantastic and something that we are really going to focus on too; throughout our podcast this year, is really trying to connect without rural and remote teachers and having them share some of their experiences with us, and also being able to share back I think is really important. Alex Manton. Alex Manton was with us for a little bit of time last year as a resource writer in music, and she did some fantastic work there. But Alex, do you want to talk a little bit about yourself, please.

Alex Manton

Hi, Jackie. Sure, I've been teaching for 15 years in the classroom and university settings, most recently. Look, I too grew up in a very musical family, and I'm also from a family of teachers. There's no surprise there, and I think I knew that I was going to be a music teacher for a long as I can remember. Which is a bit strange, I suppose. I think I came to that conclusion at about age 12, and I started tutoring the flute in high school and absolutely loved it. And that led me to where I am today, really, going to study at the conservatorium and become a music teacher. And I think for me that there's a few things that I'm passionate about, one of them is developing a sense of community through music. I think that music can be incredibly powerful in bringing together the school community and the wider community. So parents and families and even the broader community in the whole area create performance opportunities for students. And so alot of my work has been ensemble focused in creating music ensemble programs, band programs and vocal programs with feeder schools involved with big concerts and things like that to get everyone involved and excited about the performance. And I think that those co-curricular opportunities really link to the classroom. They support each other to build a really rich musical culture in a school, much like drama ensembles can or dance ensembles can. They are. They are linked and can be fantastic outlets for students. So that's a sort of passion of mine. The other passion of mine is to do with, I just believe that every student can learn and I never give up on any of them. I try to find something that that student is good at so that they get that sense of accomplishment, and that helps their self-esteem. And then that opens up to the world of discovery and, well, what can I do now? And how can I get better? And I think that that's incredibly important in education in general. I think that the creative arts can be an incredible vehicle for that as well as it tied into all those human elements that Cat was talking about, Um and also in regards to well being as well, so that our students have an outlet to explore themselves. So, yeah, that's what I'm passionate about.

Jackie

Really, That's fantastic. I love how you talk about, you know, it's really important just to find something that that student is good at and really focusing on that. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've talked to adults and they're like, I really wanted to do music, but I couldn't do music because I wasn't good enough at it. My teacher told me not to or whatever. When I was teaching, if the kid could breathe, they were in my class in music like and I would find something to be able to do with that student. And our final curriculum officer is Ravenna Gregory, who comes with a wealth of experience. I'm going to hand it over to Ravenna to talk about her career and her passions within education.

Ravenna Gregory

Thanks, Jackie. Yeah, I think I've got Kathrine Kyriacou beat on the 25 years, and I think once you get over 25 years of teaching, you probably stopped counting or I have, but it's certainly been a long time that I've been a drama teacher, really. And like Cat, I've taught English and I've been learning enrichment and special needs teaching as well. I've taught mainly in New South Wales and in the UK and in both the Independent and the public systems. So that wealth of knowledge, I guess, has grown over many, many years of teaching and being in that classroom and, I guess the thing that's kept me really in drama education and so passionate about it is that incredible vulnerability that students have to reveal in order to be creative to take those risks that end up as creativity as creating something new and innovating. And I think that trust that students place in you in a drama classroom and I think in all of the creative and performing arts is incredibly, uh, important and has kept me inspired as a teacher. I grew up myself as a remote student rural student up in the mid-North coast, and I didn't have the opportunity to be involved in very many co-curricular or extracurricular ensembles, which has been a real passion for me as a drama teacher. But what I did have was the most incredible mother who was a visual artist and the grandmother who was a musician and incredible imagination. So I remember, sort of. I don't know that I remember, but I've been told stories of myself acting out Snuggle pot and cuddle pie. Holding onto a hairbrush is if it was a microphone. I remember when I really thought that theater was for me was I think it was year nine. Mr Stewart made us read 12th Night in English, and I remember laughing at Malvolio and mocking that character of Malvolio. And then, as we read towards the end of the play, the play, as we read towards the end of the play, realizing how cruel I had been and that I have been complicit in Malvolio's downfall. In that moment, I realized the power of theater to really change an audience and change an audience in a quite a profound way. In that I came to that realization myself rather than Shakespeare having to sort of teach it to me, even though he did it clearly in a very skilled way on. I guess I've been really obsessed with theater since then. So as a remote student, I found my way down in year 10 to Belvoir Street Theater to do my work experience and was backstage there and have been a subscriber there I think ever since all way through university and I see a lot, a lot of theater, I guess I'm really interested in in our creative collaboration. And I think that the critical thinking that happens in drama has been a real passion for me, particularly the projects at HSC. I'm also embedding some of those critical and creative thinking skills in the earlier years in Stage four and five on I'm really excited to provide some resources like that for teachers around the state.

Jackie

Fantastic. I am also a really huge theater nerd, so I think we're going to get on fantastically, um, being able to talk about theater.

Cathryn

Hey, Jackie, can we hear from you? I don't think we've ever actually formally introduced you. So who are you? What is your role, and what's your passion?

Jackie

Yes. Oh, my name's Jackie and I'm Creative Arts Project advisor now with our creative Arts curriculum team, which I'm really excited about. Prior to this role, I was a music teacher in a school in the Hunter Valley. I dabbled in lots of different things, really, because I was a music teacher. I also taught visual arts sometimes in Stage four and drama in Stage four and five, which was very exciting. My background is I really love theater and music theater as well. So when I started my degree, I actually started my degree doing a music theater degree, which is why I'm really interested in the creative arts. I'm really interested in drama. I'm really interested in Danceas well, because I've studied a little bit of drama and dance. So yeah, my my passion outside of work is theater. I really enjoy going to the theater and being involved in theater. My passion in the educationI think everybody has touched a little bit on things that I'm really passionate about. I'm really passionate about how the creative arts helps to create that whole human. How so many students, particularly students who could be troubled and don't have a place, find their place in the creative arts. I was a year advisor for a period of time at my school. Being is a really big passion of mine and really helping students find their place in the world and doing that through the arts. What could be what could be better? So yeah, they're the things that I'm passionate about. As Kathrine said, I'm really passionate about sharing and collaborating, which drew me to this kind of role because in my role as a head teacher at the school that I was at, I loved supporting my staff and my students. To be able to do that on this level is something that really excites me as well. So now that you've heard from our team, I really want to reveal our plan for the Creative Cast Podcast series this year. This year, we have decided to do things a little bit different to last year and give each term a theme. Each curriculum officer you've now met today will interview teachers and experts in line with that theme. So Term one is called Let's Talk topics and I'm going to briefly throw to Alex Manton to explain, as she's already organized, next week's podcast for you.

Alex

Sure. Let's talk topics will be a series of what teachers are doing in stages four and five in all, the creative in terms of what content or topics they're covering that's within their syllabuses, if relevant, and how they implement that in the classroom. So, yes, you will hear from us shortly in regards to that.

Jackie

Beautiful and then term two is Stage six and the HSC and what that is going to be mostly about is how to get the most out of your students through those last couple of terms because, let's face it, term two and term three are the really busy months for us creative arts teachers getting through those practical elements and also just refining the writing. So term two is about Stage six and hsc and how to get the most out of those last few months. Term three is a think tank, and that is going to be about our sort of issues within our subjects. We're going to be talking to lots of different people, not just teachers in that subject area. And I know Kathrine Kyriacou has a cool one lined up covering the conceptual framework. Term four we're calling. Where to from here? Here, we're going to explore post school pathways for your students, any backwards mappingideas, excursions, co and extracurricular activities and anything else that seems to come to light throughout the year. That might help your planning for 2022. And I hope you've gathered by now that our creative arts curriculum Officers will be taking the reins at some points throughout the year and will be running some of these interviews. This is why I thought it was so important for you to meet them all today and get a little bit of background on what is important to them and what they are about. Today, our final announcement is how we would love to hear from you, our creative arts teachers across New South Wales.

If you have an idea that you would love to share with people or if you'd really like to be interviewed or if you'd really like a particular topic explored, please, please, please get in touch with us and I would encourage all New South Wales Department of Education teachers to join the Creative Arts Statewide Staffroom, which I'm going to put a link into the show notes. The Creative Arts Statewide Staffroom is a source of all New South Wales Creative Arts Curriculum Delivery truth. It is also an excellent place for you to be able to connect, learn and share with your creative arts colleagues statewide. So to contact our Creative Arts curriculum team who you've been introduced to today, you could do so through our statewide staffroom. Or you could also email creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu. We really hope that you enjoy the Creative Arts Podcast series this year, and we'd also really hope that you get in contact with us throughout the year. Thank you for joining us today, and we look forward to speaking with you again in the future. This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining the Statewide Staff Room as a source of all truths regarding curriculum or email our curriculum advisor, Cathryn Horvat using the email address creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu. The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

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