The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative arts team from Secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. The Creative arts curriculum team recognises the ongoing custodians of the lands and waterways where we work and live here on Darug country and on all the lands on which you are listening today, we pay respects to elders past and present as ongoing teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories.

We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.

Alison Tenorio

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education Creative arts curriculum team. My name is Alison Tenorio, and I'm a Creative arts curriculum adviser 7 to 12, with the Department of Education, Secondary curriculum, Curriculum Directorate. Our topic for today's discussion is Perspective through 'Eternity' and exploration of Ella Macens' piece, 'Eternity', performed and recorded by Muses Trio. We will explore the perspectives of the composer and the performer in this podcast.

'Eternity' is the second movement of a 2 movement work, the Brightest Star in the Night by Australian composer Ella Macens. Ella Macens is one of Australia's most celebrated young composers, drawing upon elements of her Latvian heritage and fusing these with her love of popular and classical music.

You'll find a detailed biography for Ella in the podcast description. Ella, welcome and thanks for joining us today to chat about your work. Firstly, can I ask, did the music or the title come first and what is your story in writing this work?

Ella Macens

So for me. It's usually one of two scenarios where the concept is very strongly embedded in my imagination, and then it's a matter of finding the right sounds to bring that story to life.

So for me, I wanted to create something that really brought the concept of life, um, forward as eternal and ever evolving and continuous and to really honor my grandfather's, um, legacy in that way. And so in this instance, it happened quite simultaneously. I remember sitting at the piano. Coming up with some of the ostinatos that we hear Therese play so fluidly and beautifully in the recording.

And for me there was something that it just captured. We probably will talk about the time signature a bit later on, but it really kind of brought to light this essence of the continuous unfolding nature of life. And I loved the way that I could weave in kind of such a hint at some of the core motifs and some of the melodies that would be foregrounded later on.

But I definitely knew that I wanted it to be related to, I guess it's my connection with the galaxy and to space and to the stars. And that's also where the idea of that eternal and continuous nature feeds in because there's so much we do not know, and it's such an opportunity to bring faith and trust into that space.

So yeah, I kind of joined hand in hand in this process for this particular work.

Alison Tenorio

Thanks, Ella. I'm really excited about getting into the intricacies of the piece as we get further along in this podcast. So thank you so much. Ella's work has been beautifully performed and recorded by Muses Trio, Louise King, Therese Milanovic, and Christa Powell, established Muses Trio in 2013.

Christa, Louise and Therese source, commission, perform and champion music by women from across the globe. Please find the biographies for Louise, Christa and Therese in the description. Welcome, Louise, Therese and Christa, thanks so much for joining us today. Can we start with how Muses Trio came to be involved in the recording of Ella's work?

Therese Milanovic

I'll jump in with this one. So it was actually through another composer and mutual friend Nat Bartsch. So we had performed some of Nat's music. We commissioned a trio and we done a double bill together and had lots of cups of tea on my veranda, which is an important part of Muses is connecting and building relationships.

Nat knew that Ella had this work commissioned, but it hadn't had an Australian premiere yet, and so she connected us basically, and so then Ella and I chatted, and Ella was intent for it to be recorded from the outset, which is a really important feature of our work as well. I think it's, it's really important for legacy that we don't just perform these beautiful works and a one-off or series of concerts that they're actually there, um, and that they really can be enjoyed for a very long time. And, and at that stage, it was a perfect fit for our 10th anniversary concert at the Red Box in South Bank, which was a floor to ceiling, glass wall with the Brisbane River behind and the city lights twinkling.

So beautiful just, it was such a perfect fit for this work. So that was the Australian premiere.

Alison Tenorio

Such a collaborative approach. Yes. Very exciting. Thank you. A question for both Ella and Muses Trio, the work, The Brightest Star in the Night is obviously scored for a trio, and in this case we've got violin, cello, and piano.

Why was this performing media chosen and what sound qualities of the instruments are successful in producing the timbre that was desired?

Ella Macens

Well I can, uh, as the composer, I can probably jump in to start this answer. So, the work was actually originally composed by the Pēteris Vasks Fund fund in Latvia. If listeners aren't familiar with the work of Latvian Composer Pēteris Vasks , you might wanna check it out.

It's absolutely beautiful. And so the commission actually was originally for this particular ensemble makeup, and it's an interesting thing for the composer to consider whether they are going to choose instruments that will be suitable and you know, evocative of the concept that the composer wishes to bring to life, or sometimes it's vice versa we are asked to write for a certain ensemble, and then the idea of what they will do comes next.

As I mentioned earlier, for me it was kind of mixing in both worlds, and so it was such an exciting thing to have the beautiful resonant qualities of the strings and also the piano in this particular composition. For me, it lended itself perfectly to the mood and the feeling that I wanted to create and the concepts I wanted to discover and uncover in writing this composition.

Louise King

Absolutely. And I think in terms of a string world, there's so much wonderful timbre we can get with the expressive nature of the lines.

There's a delightful singing quality to everything in the violin and cello lines, very much like a human voice. And there's this wonderful kind of dialogue that happens between us throughout the whole movement. And then there's the padding of the piano, which kind of creates that, sparkle and 'cause of the high pitched nature of the ostinato figures, it tends to kind of have this sense of space.

So I see the string lines very much operating as kind of a rhetoric, you know, a comment on the universe, and I think there's a slight human quality. When I was recording it, I was almost imagining Ella having a kind of conversation with her grandfather. Actually, it helped me on the cello line to kind of give it a bit of a, thoughtful, uh, sentiment.

Christa Powell

I feel like I remember at the end of the recording, Ella, we definitely felt your grandfather there. The other thing that I feel also is, especially in the violin line, is the way Ella uses the high on the E string. It's just very, very beautiful. And then also harmonics, you know, the sort of sparkly twinkling of the piano and then the high harmonics in the violins, just beautiful the way she has used all of the instruments together, and also the medium of the trio. So not just the individual instruments, but just the whole trio as one.

Louise King

Mm. Yeah, there's a, there's a delightful complexity and nuance to every note, which I think, um, is really stunning and it's a total delight to play.

It feels very ergonomic, very easy in terms of on the instrument, but yet the complexity of the writing is challenging, particularly in the metre. Yet we still have to try and push through that feeling of tempi, but to create this sense illusion of space. And I think she's managed to capture that beautifully.

Christa Powell

It's definitely one of those works where every note is a pearl and, and learning it and recording it is treating it like that as well, because every note has a really important place.

Therese Milanovic

For me, also, the, the piano trio just brings such an intimacy, you know, to, to the theme. You know, when you're initially talking about the other works in this unit, which are more orchestral works, and you wanted to contrast that, I think the, the piano trio just really zeroes into that sort of individual sparkles and the piano I think was, is able to give the work a lot of resonance with the use of the pedal and using o overtones, a lot of fifths and octaves, which are going to ring up that harmonic series so that the sound is really flying around instead of kind of being thick and solid and earth-based. It definitely feels like that the writing is more, um, of the atmosphere, I guess more of harm harmonics and vibrations rather than something earthbound and solid.

Alison Tenorio

I really love how each of the performers have been able to get that vision of what Ella is trying to portray in her story and how beautifully you've been able to express that you each felt that connection to Ella's grandfather, um, in the music that she has written. I think that's really very special, that openness and that space that has given you as performers in creating that imagery. So thank you for sharing that.

Ella, from your perspective as a composer and Therese, Christa and Louise, from a performer's perspective, what is the benefit of a collaborative approach when performing or recording your work?

Christa Powell

I think that is the beauty of collaborating with a live, real, live composer, is that we felt Ella's grandfather's presence we felt the importance of her relationship with him in this piece and we understood so much about the complexities of this piece because of that ongoing dialogue. Um, we, it's, it's really a privilege to be able to have so much time talking with the composer about why they're writing something. You know, and I know it wasn't, originally written for us, but we do feel very attached to this piece like it was written for us.

Louise King

I suppose we have to also clarify that we had the joy and privilege of having Ella in the recording studio as we were recording, which is very rare and it was a real privilege to have her there, which means that she can instantly kind of give feedback, uh, review things, question things, and kind of really get what she's wanting to, to have in that kind of recording legacy um, and that's such a joy to have a composer in the space. So it's definitely collaborative. Uh mm-hmm. We, we love having that feedback loop there and it doesn't always happen.

Therese Milanovic

No, I'll add it was quite an emotional experience. I think for all of us recording this piece. I think we were all really quite moved by the emotion of the music and on the note of collaborating and getting feedback from composers, I mean, our notational system, it's limited.

It can't tell you everything on the page and, and I, I find it really interesting you know, when I'm teaching works by older composers who aren't able to answer an email that we, we are left wondering, you know, well, did they really mean that two notes low to continue for the whole movement? Did they get bored writing it? Should they, you know, do they intend to stop it? We'll never know. But I think in all of our work with composers, I not only the, the score, but the interpretation has quite dramatically changed from working with composers. Sometimes we'll start off, not with you, Ella, but mm-hmm. We might start off at the tempo that's written on the score and the composer say, oh no, that's totally wrong. You're like, well, that's what it says. Oh no, but that's wrong. I changed it. Right. So music, it's, it's alive, you know, and we were able to bring so much more to the music that can't be notated on the score through having your input and, um, and I, I think vice versa, a couple of little things changed on the score because of how we were playing as well.

Hmm. So, yeah, I agree with Krista. It, it feels like, to me, it feels like it was written for us. So I'm very happy to claim it as our piece.

Ella Macens

Well, what's really interesting in that part of the process is, although the premiere happened in Latvia, being that it was commissioned by a Latvian organisation, was in a little castle somewhere in the middle of the countryside, but I wasn't there and I didn't even have an opportunity to meet with those performers on Zoom or we exchanged a couple of emails, but you know, they were very busy preparing a whole program. There were a lot of other pieces there as well that required their time and attention. And so in a way, um, when I visited Muses Trio in Brisbane, yeah, we were able to workshop it. I think it was in Theresa's living room actually. I got off the airport, hopped in an Uber and went straight to a beautiful home and um, that was the first time we all actually met in person after many, many, many years.

I think it just struck me in that moment, you know, when is a piece finished? I always laugh when people ask me like, how long did you spend writing this piece? And there's so many intricate answers to that, and there's so many stages and so things continued to, you know, no pun intended, but the piece is 'Eternity'. It's about ever-unfolding and the continuous nature of these, um, conversations even that really comes into this as well. So definitely there have been, um, so many nuances that we've workshopped together and to be in the room with such exceptional and friendly and forthcoming, you know, creatively forthcoming musicians, there's so many things that we were able to workshop to make sure that I was able to tell the story exactly as I had intended to.

So yeah, the scores aren't exactly the same from the premiere to the two performances earlier in that year and then to the recording, but, um, what's really beautiful is having had that time, not only to work on the music, but get to know each other and feel the energy of one another. I think that's also what contributed to the feeling that we've described so far in that recording process and maybe it's an interesting thing to consider, but normally we record or we perform and we have a maybe a meal together or say thanks a million times, and then that's kind of the end of the process and never before have I actually sat in a room like this, even virtually with the performers sometime after, to reflect on the process as a whole. And to, to hear each of your recounts of how you felt in that space. I had goosebumps all over me, as you described it. 'cause actually that's a really, that's, I don't take that lightly that's actually a really profound thing that we've all just been discussing that, you know, maybe the intention and feeling I had behind it actually translated. Into the bones and bodies and cells of each human creating it and I think that's something that can always be articulated. It's just something that's felt in the music and in that experience, very profound.

Alison Tenorio

That's lovely. The, the ability for music to be interpreted different ways because it's not just what's on the, the paper in front of you to be interpreted by different musicians that pick up the piece of music is a really special thing for you I'm sure Ella as a composer. Um, but I, I really love the connection that Muses Trio has had with you and has been able to develop what you have had written down on the score. I think that's very special for you as a, a composer.

Ella Macens

Definitely. And it's just one of the, you know, we might talk about, you know, tips for students or tips for listeners, but it's one of the biggest things you know, if you are working on an idea, find somebody who can play it that's not a computer or AI. I think that's just, it sounds so obvious, but so many students create in isolation and definitely like I also create an isolation, but you know, before too long I really wanna get together with a musician or a performer, at least share it with them. Because things have new life when they're, you know, when you can really feel the resonance in real time and not to mention the technical capabilities, you know, we might underwrite for performers capabilities or we might also ask them to do something that's, you know, just not possible. And um, those kinds of things can be ironed out and looked at alternatives very quickly and um, but I think a lot of composers, you know, especially when I was younger, I did this too, I would wait until it was perfect and I'm using inverted commas as I say that. And there was a fear in showing the idea, or you know, it's not quite ready yet but let the performers into that process and allow them to help you, let it be ready, because it's gonna be different every time regardless. So yeah, that's just been such an amazing experience. Yeah, sets my heart on fire. I think every time I'm in the room with musicians, that's the moment after all of the, you know, there's joy in writing, but it's also quite a big stressful task at times, and I always have that moment of, ah, this is why I do it. And, um, that really comes to life in that collaborative process. Definitely.

Alison Tenorio

Alright, so let's start looking at the score. So in 'Eternity', you have Ella selected 11/8 as the time signature. A bit of an unusual time signature, but it doesn't remain in 11/8 throughout. Can you take us through some of your decision making um, process and why this multi metric approach best fits the message that you are hoping to convey to your audience?

Ella Macens

Great question. Yeah. So when I was a student, I would've looked at this score and it would've like freaked me out 'cause I would've seen the time signature and thought too hard. Don't understand it next, but actually for me, like I'm a really aurally driven composer and the, the theory of it, you know, is useful it helps me write it down, but I don't really conceive ideas from a theoretical perspective it's all like what I'm, hearing, and that doesn't mean necessarily in my head 'cause I also don't really compose so much in my head.

It's a very tactile thing. So sitting at the piano playing and vocalising is usually step one for me and I voice note, record everything on my iPhone so that I have a record of it. And part of the hardest, the hardest part of my process is often then going to Sibelius or Musescore or whatever, you know, whatever's relevant for the composer. The trickiest thing is actually to then go transcribe, everything that I did and capture that free quality and improvisation, because that's a really big part, especially this particular movement of this work.

So it's not that I chose 11/8 and went right, this piece is an 11/8 and it's gonna change here and here and here and here. It was more that, you know, on that day when I was sitting at the piano and this initial ostinato and idea came to life under my fingertips. That's just what it was. And so then I had to work out what that is in notation and, yeah, that's how we kind of landed at 11/8 it was purely, um, yeah, very intuitive.

And again, I think as a younger composer I would've gone, oh gosh, like, but I don't know how to treat that and I don't know what to do with it next after I've got those opening two bars of, you know, Theresa's intro. So, you know, I might have changed it. I might have again in inverted com- um, commas, like simplified it to make it something that I understood more as a younger composer. But now I just trust my instinct.

And that's all you can do at the end of the day. So work it out, feel it, sing it. Um. The little kind of melodic line that Therese even brings out in the right hand it's still the same ostinato and same time a signature, but there's a few different points of emphasis and a few pictures being added there that start to create like an a new melody that's just kind of woven itself out of that tapestry of the ostinato and, all of that for me was pretty organic.

Using the voice, again, a lot to start to find what's the next layer and what's the next layer and as Louise mentioned, you know, there is this really strong dialogue in this piece. Yeah. The next stage is probably improvising at the piano and then trying to transcribe it, but I might go to Garage Band on the way and you know, put that audio file into Garage Band and then add a couple of voice recording layers and sing the cello line and sing the violin line at least for a bit to get things going.

So yeah, the 11/8's not so scary to me anymore. 'cause actually it came from the inside out, not the outside in. And if you trust that process, then you can't really go wrong.

Alison Tenorio

I love that. So you didn't go straight to the computer, it was all about experimenting with your voice, on the piano so it developed through your playing, rather than going straight onto the computer saying, I'm going to write a composition in 11/8.

Ella Macens

I think every composer's back just like hunched over in fear a little bit, as you said that Yeah, definitely was a very, uh, hands-on approach. And also like singer- songwriter is a big part of my life as a musician, so although it's for a classically, you know, kind of based ensemble and it is classical music, there's certainly a lot of pop elements in this as well.

And so really I could, you know, I could also play this as block chords as a pop song and pop some lyrics and sing it for you, maybe we can do that in another unit. Yeah. And then for me also, I mean, the 11/8 is one is the way that we represent the idea, right? But the idea itself is what's most important.

And so going back to the title and the concept for this movement titled 'Eternity', I mean, 11/8 really stops anyone from tapping their foot, to it on a regular basis, or you can dance, but it would be quite interpretive and quite fluid. So, you know, you don't get the sense of like a rock beat in here and you don't get the sense that the mosh pit's gonna be jumping up and down, I wanted it to be free, fluid, open, expansive.

It's almost like one stream of water, right that just like never stops. And so, as you mentioned, like there's a few moments in the piece, um, where the time signature does change. Like for example, bar 10 we have the first 12/8 time signature, which in that moment might feel like sweet relief because oh, okay, like that one I can conceive a bit easier, you know?

Um, and so that was there for me, it's like a, a way to create a moment of like enhanced stability. But before then it let it be at figure B, we, we go back into the 11/8. So yeah, I change time signatures a lot in my music and largely it's to really mimic like space and resonance, but also human and breath, like the humanness and breath in music.

So you'll often find in my works, I'm sure it happens here, we can find a few examples to point listeners to but, the end of a phrase might often have like an extra beat or an extra couple of quavers and we know now through our knowledge of like breath and meditation that if we have a longer exhale, than an inhale we are automatically sending signs to our body that we are safe and it's safe to activate, you know, our parasympathetic our rest and digest and, and feel good state.

And so that's a really interesting way that I think the music kind of soothes itself. Often at the end of the musical phrase, you'll have that extra moment there, it's like, you know, the building and then the release comes when the next phrase starts. So that actually, you know, could explain why there's a 12 eight in bar 10 just before the next section begins.

It's a moment to catch the breath before the idea recommences.

Alison Tenorio

Thanks Ella for sharing that about your time signature and for not making it quite so scary. Um, 'cause I know 11/8 can be, quite a daunting thing when students start looking at scores and start playing it. So thank you for demystifying that a little bit.

Ella Macens

Sure.

Therese Milanovic

If I could jump in actually about that 11/8 and—

Alison Tenorio

Sure.

Therese Milanovic

— what, what it means to me. So it really reminds me that there are no straight lines in nature. And when I was preparing it, it, it made me remember when I was lucky enough to travel to Barcelona and see like all the Gaudi architecture, for example, that you know, that the floors are not straight, you know, they gently undulate and the corners of the buildings just sort of weave and wave around, and, uh, there's, there was nothing at, at a 90 degree angle. And because he was trying to represent nature in architecture, and I think that's what you've done Ella, with the 11/8, it really does have a feeling of timelessness because we, we don't feel like we're locked into a square three or two or or four on a measure.

Yeah. So that, that was the imagery for me.

Christa Powell

Mm-hmm.

Alison Tenorio

That's a really lovely way to look at it. Therese. Um, we might move on to the piano part now, Therese, if you don't mind. So your part begins with eight bars of solo piano. And for you, there's more complexities in the opening than just counting the 11 quaver beats in the bar.

Can you explain how you approached learning this movement?

Therese Milanovic

Sure. So the way I approach learning any piece and playing in general is informed by my many decades of studying and teaching the Taubman approach to piano technique, um, that helped me overcome nearly a decade of playing related injury and, you know, regained the chance of having a career in music.

So it's really for me that the process is about going back and forth from the micro to, to the macro of really working out the physical choreography, whether it be I have to move inside from my thumb on a black key. If, the music sounds very simple, but there are lots of jumps underneath it, it sounds very legato because the pedal is on, so it's being clear on what can I connect, what can I let go so that it becomes very automatic and it sounds very dry and technical, but the relationship to, to the interpretation is, is such that, that they really do feed each other.

And so once the the physical choreography is established, your hands really start to suggest sound and timbre to you. And then also when you put your ears on that and then you might notice, oh, there was an accent I didn't want, or something sounded a little bit unprepared or sudden then you go back saying, oh yeah, I forgot to do this, or I wasn't quite sure of where I had to to send my arm to. So it really does go hand in hand, excuse the pun.

But then when working on the sound world, um, it really had to glow, for me and that's what I was looking for, as I was saying before, I really had to play on the harmonics and the, particularly the intervals at the fifth, lots of ringing effects, like when you have a low bass note, you can really use that and, you know, techniques such as using staccato with the pedal on, um, gives it that kind of ringing quality to the sound, again, it's more about sort of harmonics flying around rather than something being sort of solid and, and earthbound is really looking for sort of these sort of flying, um, glowing, sort of like an illuminating kind of sound, which would project around the room. So yeah, it's, it's, it's beautifully written for the piano.

Alison Tenorio

And can you tell us a little bit more about the harmonics resonance that. You just mentioned?

Therese Milanovic

Yeah, so the harmonic series, so the, if you have like the fundamental note and then you have the octave and then it goes up to the fifth, so you, you can play it in such a way that'll actually activate all of those notes through the harmonic series. You can, you can really play with that and have fun with that, with, with the piano. So using the pedal and using a staccato touch with the pedal on. And so it's, you know, it's about choosing your, which notes to hide, which notes to bring out that definitely the fifths have a particular resonance and I think Ella really uses that to great advantage in the writing for this piece.

Alison Tenorio

Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, Louise, we might. Um, look at the cello part, and I can see in the cello part that the, um, clefs change throughout the piece. What clefs are used and how does that help you read your line?

Louise King

Sure. So basically we have the bass clef, which obviously is the most obvious general clef that cellists would use. Then we also have the tenor clef, which is used extensively in this movement as well as the treble clefs. We actually have three clefs as cellists to read, and it's been used throughout, uh, this movement of the work. And in many ways that's to also kind of identify, I suppose, the register. So of course the difference between a violinist and a cellist is we generally will read three clefs, whereas a violinist would obv, obviously use a higher, uh, pitch. Uh, lots of ledger lines. Um, I'm hopeless with ledger lines, so I love it when composers really do embrace the three clefs that we can use, and of course, tenor clef is that wonderful, tenor range.

Uh, whereas that kind of beautiful, kind of almost like a backing vocal kind of range harmony line for the violin. And then there's times in this movement where I actually, I'm higher in pitch than the violin. And that's obviously where the treble clef can come in as well. But generally speaking, there's about a three octave range that we would be employing in this kind of work and it really adds to the expression, because I can weave around the violin up and down and we can really enjoy, uh, that sonority. And that's totally different to using a cello in a different chamber of music setting, such as a string quartet, depending obviously on the, the genre of the composer. But I think it's very song led and very lyrical writing.

The most challenging thing about some of the, uh, entries are actually finding the pitches, so to help students, for example, bar 31. That took me about six attempts to actually find that D flat pitch. 'cause you've gotta find it somewhere in the middle of the fingerboard with no, you know, to the point where you go, do I need a sticker?

And then there's also a point, um, in 82, which was very difficult, just three beautiful exquisite notes that just kind of comment on what the violin has had. But again, you've gotta find that D flat again, midpoint, and just launch at it and just hope it's there. Particularly in a concert that can be the most stressful two points for me in the work, but obviously in a recording you get a wonderful second chance.

Alison Tenorio

The beauty of recording and going again. Love it. Oh, thanks Louise.

Louise King

No worries.

Alison Tenorio

And, Christa and Louise, I'll ask you this, how did you interpret the score to communicate the music in an expressive way?

Louise King

I reckon there's so many beautiful prompts from Ella. There's so many gorgeous words like playfully and even of course, just graceful at the start.

I, those word prompts instantly crystallize the kind of tone palette she's looking for. So I look for those. And then also for me, the use of the bow slurring indicates a lot of legato phrasing, and she's very clear on things like portamentis. You'll see some lines, connecting notes where she wants slides, and those to me are.

Are wonderful ways to quickly crystallize how she's wanting to hear the line being played.

Christa Powell

I agree with Louise. I'm song based and I think it shows, uh, Ella's background as well when Ella talked about singer- songwriting as well, because I think that's also why the whole piece lends itself so well to storytelling.

And the other thing is just listening to Ella talk about it really. It's helped me interpret, you know, I love the way in violin part, she does use the entire range of the violin. Um, so right down on the G string to lots and lots of ledger lines and it's beautiful. And plus harmonics, you know, and also just jumping on on the 11/8. So I mean, my instinct would be to play 11/8, quite rhythmic and pulse, but there is a lot of rhythm and pulse and I think personally that rhythm is more expressive harmony. But we won't go into that conversation.

But I feel that rhythm is very, very expressive, and I think it's so beautiful in this piece in particular, but it's not an obvious really pounding rhythm, which you could do with 11/8 and would be very expressive. And that's the challenge of the piece, is to be sort of this floating gorgeous long lines and really not get bogged down in any, because you're really thinking about the 11/8. It's really just to make these lines so much longer, but still have this gorgeous undulating of this asymmetric rhythm that's happening, which sometimes has a 10/8 or a 12/8 thrown in as well.

And other times where the 11/8 is still 11/8, but it's just felt differently within the bar as well, depending on where the melody is.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Louise King

Yeah. One other tool, expressive tool. We obviously, uh, can. Discuss quickly is just vibrato. I mean, it is an incredibly expressive, um, device for us string players and of course pianists generally wouldn't have that. But I think what's incredible about vibrato in this piece, this repertoire really lends itself to that. But there are beautiful moments where you can just choose to not have any vibrato at all and the harmony just really be very clear and resonant and both Christa and I really enjoy, um, moving between non vibrato to, molto vibrato and I think that's a, a very important toolkit that brings expression, uh, to the foreground.

Alison Tenorio

In the accompaniment, Ella, it's based on a lot of ostinatos, what other pitch features, you know, looking at, uh, melody, harmony, tonality are evident in, um, the composition, the second movement 'Eternity' from the Brightest Star in the Night?

Ella Macens

So for me, motifs and motific development is a really big thing that I've, that I like to anchor to in my works.

Um, and more than thinking about it as something very technical and theoretical, again, my intuition guides me in that. And what I'm looking for always when I'm composing is, you know, am I singing this melody that I wrote this morning, that evening when I'm cooking dinner? And if I am, then that's a really good sign, like if I can recall it quite quickly and quite easily, um, if it flows very comfortably and fluidly, like for my vocal cords and in my, you know, my kind of singing voice, then generally that's like an intuition that I will follow and I will trust that there's something like really pure and accessible about that and, you know, not that I'm writing for other people.

I actually write, it's an expression for myself and of my life, but usually if I trust those instincts for, specifically for the melody, I find that it really resonates with people, whether they're performers or listeners, then that's kind of like what the link is.

You know, like if the sentence is clear and meaningful and in intentioned, and by sentence, I also mean like a musical sentence, like a phrase, right? If the, if the feeling of it, the length of it and what it does and what it says or asks is clear, then it's a really beautiful way to, you know, share an idea or a concept in this ever expanding accessible form being music. So for me, when I'm writing, melody is just such a strong part and I feel that in this one, like a lot of these ideas were conceived as vocal melodies. So I think it was Therese who mentioned like there's a singing kind of quality to the work as well.

And that's really great that other people can pick up on that 'cause that's how they were also conceived. Harmonically, the music that I write is usually pretty diatonic, and what that means is I have a tendency to stay pretty centered, you know, like in the key area, and use the chords available within that one key. And to extend that, you might add a seventh or a ninth or using versions creatively.

In this particular work I did want to, it might come up when we discuss kind of unity in contrast a little bit, but I did want to hint at the melancholic, reflective, part of the story, which is that being 94 means there's a lot of life to process, a lot of life to accept and not so much life left to connect forwards with. And so for me, like more of a minor tonality was a pretty significant thing in that. And not that because, not because it was sad to me, actually, there was a great deal of faith and trust in this whole process for myself personally.

But it's a way to, I guess, target or hint at the deeper undercurrents within ourselves, and whether that's the questions we have about challenging situations or the uncertainties that we face in a multitude of different ways. So for me, the opening, for example, doesn't sound happy to me at all, it doesn't necessarily feel sad either, but it's like this liminal space between, there's a pondering, there's an opportunity for reflection, but it's definitely more anchored towards the minor than the major.

Um, and then the first shift we hear is at C where we kind of move into a, a happier tonality. It's a bit more optimistic, a bit more, lilting and uplifting and a bit more playful. And you know, in the story behind the work, that was also important for me to show that it's also about the joy of connection, the joy of knowing, and the joy of life.

So throughout, you know, listeners will see when they, uh, discover the score that there are a couple of changing key signatures throughout, and really that's to foreground and showcase, I guess the emotive quality of what different keys can provide. And what's interesting is if we were to transpose all of this up or down, even one semitone, I don't know if I would recognise all of the piece anymore.

It would actually feel completely different. So that's something just for, you know, young composers to also play around with is like, where does an idea feel best? And in my experience, it's usually where it was conceived first, because that's actually where it came from. When we're speaking, you know, for more of like a higher consciousness level.

And then for the very finale of the composition, you know, our listeners might look at the score and say, wow, okay, there's a lot of accidentals creeping in here, what's going on there? And so I did really, really wanna convey that idea of something, it's almost like the resonance entering the realm that we don't understand so much of, um, the unknown, but it's a very peaceful transition constantly climbing, unfolding, evolving.

I liked the idea of this kind of cycle happens quite a few times to end the piece because that really goes to show that although the piece has to end somewhere, I can't ask Muses Trio to play for the rest of their lives in this particular work. But the music kind of hints at that expansive quality and so hence the modulation kind of fragments at the end, um, that are still weaving, you know, the core motif.

I think in terms of motific development, the one part that I'd love to highlight is, for example, the interplay between the violin and cello around bar 81, 82, 83, where it's like a technique, what we call fragmentation. So one of the main core melodies is here disperse between, um, the violin and the cello, but we also bring in harmonics as a way to kind of state the melody and the phrase in a slightly unique and different way to show that something is changing.

And these are all kind of cues, right? That we're coming to the end of the composition. We've been through the journey and we're now finding a way to put a full stop on something that actually never has a full stop. Yeah.

Alison Tenorio

And you mentioned earlier about unity and contrast.

Ella Macens

Yes.

Alison Tenorio

The elements of music, uh, all interrelated. So we've got our six elements of music, they're interrelated. How do you create contrast and unity within those elements of music?

Ella Macens

Yeah, this was like my absolute favorite question when I was studying Music 1 in high school, 'cause it's the one that I felt, I think the easiest to connect to because it really brings in all the concepts of music into that one what's kind of labeled as its own area of, um, study right. Okay. So. In terms of harmony and melody, I mean, I've just alluded a little bit to the beginning, um, feeling like you know more in the kind of minor tonality and at C we had like a real lift in that, but that's very fleeting after C we've head straight back to where we came from and we kind of revisit that darker more, you know, less transparent kind of mood for, again, at G the whole, quality of it when you kind of shift keys and you emphasise that major for me in this work, it opens up, it's kind of more inviting, it's less kind of in the head and ruminating and thinking and more. And there's a clearer vision I think at that point.

And so the work really oscillates between kind of soloing these artists as well, playing this particular piece, so obviously Therese on the piano like really sets the scene for us. And as the strings start to kind of come in, it's kind of like they're introducing themselves slowly, they are creeping in with the quietest dynamics, which is a big way I think I've created unity and contrast in this work as well in how does each, how does each instrument in this ensemble make their presence known? And sometimes that's creeping in the back door and it's very lyrical and smooth and you know, very held and almost precious. Then there's other moments where, you know, the two string lines are kind of in duet together, and they're never in competition, but they're always complimenting. But someone's always either in the foreground or they're like a combined force singing their, you know, their phrase.

So for me, fragmentation, whether it's kind of taking bits apart and highlighting those or kind of bringing them all in into this unified kind of focal centre for probably more dramatic impact than anything else. Yeah, there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Probably be here for a couple of hours, but as I mentioned before, it's also then taking previously heard ideas and maybe hearing it in a different register in a different octave, or maybe it's in a harmonic this time instead of in an ordinary form. So there are all kinds of ways we can rely on and tap into the capabilities of each instrument. There are hundreds of ways that I could have written this, and the trick is actually landing on just a few.

And then handing that to the musicians and allowing them to put their spin on it. Yeah. Even, for example, Louise at towards the end of the composition has some beautiful cello like chordal, pizzicatos. I'd like to argue that they're not random, they definitely serve a purpose, and it's knowing sometimes when to use what technique. And for me, I loved that that brought it feeling of groundedness, of like connection to earth and roots it felt like deeper and richer. And I thought that was a really nice, um, quality to bring in as the piece was starting to hint that it was coming to an end. Showing that something has changed and the conversation's gone elsewhere.

Yeah.

Alison Tenorio

The students, um, are going to be learning a classroom arrangement, um, of sections G to K. What composer perspective, um, would you like to give the students when they're trying to tell the story for this section?

Ella Macens

I'd love for them all to really lean into what each individual line has to say. And there's kind of a delicate interplay in this of treating it like you're a soloist, but then obviously you're not a soloist and there's certain things that need to be considered when you're playing with a surrounding ensemble. So I guess what I mean by that is I'd love for each individual line to be played as if it's its own perspective, because that's actually what they're all bringing into this. Bring in your, your own individual character and then work out how to balance that out um, with your peers around you. 'cause within that it's a very, it's a very fun opportunity.

So yeah, to confidently engage with your individual line and what is the story it's trying to share. You know, are you the foreground, are you the background? Are you the juice in the middle? And regardless of which one you are, you have a very important role to play. So tapping into that role and trusting that, and then finding a balance with all of the players around you, I think that'd be a really fun thing to explore.

Yeah.

Alison Tenorio

Christa, Therese and Louise. What is your advice to students as they set out to learn the trio for this section? What challenges did you face that you might be able to give some advice to students for?

Christa Powell

It's actually the hardest bit in the piece.

Just such little section. It's beautiful. And I totally agree with, with Ella, is really knowing where you are because there is a section from around 48, uh, or a little bit before, do you recall, Ella, we had endless conversations about this line in the violin? My naturally instinct was, was to play it as the big solo line. In the end it was really brought back a little bit and, and a lot more subdued, but still feeling like a solo line, but not just being ostentatious, I guess. And then, then also, you know, from, from H as well, from 51 that is another classic example of the time signature moving, undulating and moving and really having to think about a really long line. So thinking, you know, 51 all the way through to 63 is a long, line and really being absolutely precise with the rhythm and the time signatures, but not letting the audience feel that you're counting and trying to make it precise.

It just is fluid because it is such a beautiful moment in the piece if it just flows and undulates, and yet that's a lot of hard work, work of the ducks legs flapping around under the water to make it happen.

Louise King

Yeah, so trusting Dr. Beat. Um, as a trio, we probably spend a long time just rehearsing with the metric of the, the quaver in there as a, just a general pulse to sit on.

We have to get very comfortable with, um, those rhythmic divisions. So trusting Dr. Beat, get your metronome on and really feel free within that metric as well. I think there's also a unifying moment at H where you feel like you kind of arrived somewhere, um, as a collective and then. Commentary, um, behind the scenes as well after that. So again, just knowing what your role is always is very good in that sense. Yeah. Counting is gonna really give you that success metric, I think, in the section.

Christa Powell

I think also trusting each other as performers as well, because there's a lot of breathing, especially in string players that, you know, Therese really getting, you know, I about performing together for a long time you, you get to know those, how everybody breathes and you breathe differently on your instrument. Even the string players, even, you know, cello and violin breathe differently with, with how the bow works and things like that. So I felt like this section in the piece, you know, when I say it's hard, that's, that's not bad thing. It's, it's just that that is a part of the piece where we really had to do exactly that. Trust each other with how you lean into an upbeat, or how you lean into taking or landing on a note and things like that. Very much choreographed as well on your own instrument.

Alison Tenorio

It's a really important point that collaboration within an ensemble and that you have that understanding of the other members within your ensemble and that you can communicate that effectively within an ensemble.

Louise King

Absolutely. I'm just gonna jump in and say, we're obviously a chamber music group. We don't have the benefit of a maestro conductor in front of us, so we are totally responsible and accountable for our own sense of time, and that is the joy, actually, we can interpret many things, um, in that moment, but therefore there has to be an agreement and a process of discussing those things. We actually bring ourselves to the work much more than we would ever do as string players if we're playing in a large section. And in a large section, we are trained to play the same as everyone else in that section, what I call the cello operator, having played in a professional orchestra, that what it feels like, but you are kind of told what to do you're directed. But, the beauty of chamber music is actually you can have a lot of autonomy, and I think that's obviously what attracts me to it. Yep.

Therese Milanovic

And then I think for any pianist preparing this piece, I think you really ideally want to come to the rehearsal being secure enough in your own part that you can be completely available to react and respond to what the other players are doing.

I find that, that this piece with, within that, the metre, it's really about allowing it to unfold and, being present to it rather than like pushing and driving and like kind of, you know, for example, like creating this, this huge climax. Um, it's really more of an organic experience, but for that magic to happen, you need to do the, the not so shiny work of really carefully preparing and, and honing your skills and you're with, with tone production as well, so the range is from double p to mf but within that there has to be so many shades and colours and, um, that's where, that's where you have to sweat a little bit to have that control over your instrument, that it can be at the stage that you can just play with it. You can just react in the moment, which is really beautiful.

Louise King

Yeah, so actually it's all about listening and listening with a kind of mindset of love, actually loving every note you play and being aware that everyone's contributing to that wonderful fabric. So yes, listening, uh, is a very visceral, real thing. Don't just play what you read. You have to be finding something else beyond what you are reading. Listening for that in the space.

Alison Tenorio

I was just going to say it's a very important skill listening to sit back and listen and take it in interpret.

Ella Macens

Also, it might be really helpful for any students and performers gearing up to, you know, play these bars is we've got this amazing recording by the Muses Trio available listening even in the sense of, using your aural skills to be become familiar with the gestures and the motifs and the phrasing and the shape, I mean, we've obviously put so much work into the recording, as we mentioned, and it's just, it's such an exquisite performance that's captured and we're so lucky to have that. And I know if any students are more aurally driven like I am, it might be interesting for them to experience the piece first, almost from the perspective that I, as the composer did. For me, it was an aural experience, first, they're listening to it, although they're not conceiving the idea but listening and getting a sense of the work from that perspective. And then only then once you feel like you're connected with the music through your ears and through your senses, that then you can apply that to your instrument.

So that might be an interesting approach to try as well.

Louise King

Yeah, I'd be curious to see what students would do if they just laid on their back and then on, you know, somewhere outside, underneath a bright, beautiful starry sky. You know, you've gotta find that moment. And I would generally say, listen to it without the score first, see what comes up for you in an open hearted way, and then obviously then go into the more research investigative stage. Yeah. Um, but let the piece just come to you in that way.

Ella Macens

And every student or every listener will have their own way to connect with. I mean, obviously I have a, a concept behind the piece, and it's very personal to me, but everyone will be able to find if they want to, will be able to open up and have the vulnerability to tap into their own, their own, I guess take on that particular story, you know, that's woven between, and I feel that's always when you can see when someone's really connected to their personal, you know, what's their personal connection to the idea.

It's just undeniable that that brings out the most exquisite performance and the most exquisite presence from that performer. Which I have been very lucky to see here with these amazing musicians.

Christa Powell

I, I think also humming and singing some of the motifs. It really internalising it Also, even just with the time signature play around, do your own improvisation on that time signature and moving in and out of, you know, 11/8, 12/8, 10/8.

And just really embody that. Certainly as a younger musician, I think that's really important, but some of them, the melodies are very soul like, so they're easy to absorb.

Alison Tenorio

As we are moving now towards the end of our podcast, what piece of advice, Ella, would you give students to support their understanding of 'Eternity'?

Ella Macens

So I think it's really exciting and important to remember that we don't need a million different ideas to create a musical work. And sometimes just a few ideas used in creative and interesting ways is an all we need to create. Um, a short or a long musical composition. And so one idea that I would love to perhaps suggest is how about grabbing, you know, four to five different coloured highlighters and going through and seeing what patterns you, yourselves can find in this musical score?

And in doing so, I think it will show you that even in the kind of trickier patches where it looks, very complex material. You'll actually find that there's somewhere else previously in the piece where you've highlighted that same idea, the same colour, and I think then when you can kind of connect this map together, suddenly it let looks less like a lot of different ideas that you have to learn in isolation and more like, oh, well here's this particular fragment that I heard in a phrase at the start in the piano, and how was it played in the piano line, or how was the idea interpreted there?

You can kind of start to connect the dots, like a, like a big puzzle. I've done that with a number of students analysing this piece before and they've always gone, oh wow, so actually there's not that much going on here. It's just, you know, where is it being played and how is it being played, and who is it playing to, and are they responding in the same way?

So I've always found that to be really interesting experience from a compositional perspective to pull that piece apart and actually unveil what's beneath. I think when we hear it, we intuitively just trust it. I think this music feels quite easy to trust and easy to surrender to, and to let it guide you as the listener.

And it's sometimes quite exciting to see the score and find it a bit daunting, but then you pull it to pieces yourself and you realise, actually I do understand the core features that are, you know, weaving this tapestry together.

Alison Tenorio

And Therese. Christa, And Louise, what advice would you give to students as they listen, play and explore, Ella's piece 'Eternity'.

Louise King

Embodying the rhythm helps me moving, so the idea of embodiment, actual gesturing, interpretive dance, you know, they'd be able to feel the metric. I think let your imagination go wild. Perhaps try and imagine almost like a film, what would you be kind of creating if there was a visual component to this?

Also imagine movement. How, how would that feel in your body to actually kind of sway or gesture along with the lines. Um, and another thing I always talk about is, music at the moment is printed black and white, yet I never think in black and white. I'm always thinking texture, timbre, colours. So perhaps colour in the score. Now that would be fun.

Christa Powell

I think definitely listen to this piece, the recording. The number one advice I would give a young musician learning it is don't be scared of time signatures, which you'll find a lot in in young people. Yeah, and I agree with Louise as well, embody it and move. Do a mum dance.

Therese Milanovic

What a wonderful opportunity to get your hands on this beautiful piece.

So if you do play one of these three instruments, don't stop it, just listening to the CD, you know, actually learn it and get people together in the room and, and experience it because it is just such a different experience to be in the middle of music being created as opposed to being a passive listener.

And then once that's done, I mean, for me, music is, it's not enough just to play for myself it has to be shared, and I think that's how we keep this tradition alive and how music continues to live on is through the minds and hearts of bodies of the next performers who take this piece. So I would love to hear of many trios playing this whether its to family and friends or at a school concert or whatever that might be.

I guess I suggest to people to, if there is a recording to listen at, at the start, um, so that you have a sense of the whole, and so that when you're learning your individual part, you can hear the other lines so you really know how your part fits into the whole. But then to put the recording away and to really let it seep and, and form your own interpretation and find your own way through it.

And then. I quite like to go back just before the concert and listen again, and often if that recording, the initial recording just seems like a completely different piece because I've journeyed and you know, found my own pathway through it. And so you might come back and find things that you'd loved and things that you'd forgotten, or things that you might say, I really respect that, but I'd actually like to do that differently and that's completely valid and welcomed as well.

Alison Tenorio

Thank you so much, Ella, Therese, Christa, and Louise for joining us today to explore 'Eternity' from the Brightest Star in the Night by Ella Macens. It has been so wonderful to hear each of your perspectives of composing, interpreting, and performing the work, the collaboration between you, Ella and Muses Trio members, Therese, Louise, and Christa has been such an important part of becoming familiar with, and understanding the story that needs to be told and how best to present that story to the audience. Again, thank you for sharing your expertise and perspectives with us today.

Ella Macens 'Eternity' is one of the works studied in the Stage 5 Music of our solar system unit.

The unit and resources are available on the New South Wales Department of Education Creative Arts curriculum website. A link has been provided in the description, the copyright permissions for the second movement of the Brightest Star in the Night 'Eternity' have been granted by composer Ella Macens and Muses Trio organisation, Muses Trio.

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes. Or email Jane Mcdavitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

The music for this podcast was composed by creative arts adviser, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]

Ella Macens is one of Australia's most celebrated young composers, drawing upon elements of her Latvian heritage and fusing these with her love of popular and classical music. Her language is rooted in a deeply evocative and sensitive musical aesthetic, for which she is becoming well-known in Australia and beyond. She has been commissioned by prominent ensembles, including the Sydney and Melbourne Symphony Orchestras, and has worked with various choirs and chamber groups around the world. Ella holds a Masters degree in Composition from the Sydney Conservatorium, which she completed under the guidance of Professor Matthew Hindson AM. Her accolades include the Frank Hutchens Scholarship for Composition and the Fine Music FM Young Composer Award, and in 2023 she was a finalist in the Australian Art Music Awards. Ella has participated in prestigious programs like the Sydney Conservatorium of Music Composing Women program and the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra Australian Composers' School. Ella is also a dedicated music educator and holds the position of Associate Lecturer in Composition at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music.

Louise King, cellist of Muses Trio, is the Artistic Director of Cello Dreaming, where she teaches, produces concerts, and mentors young musicians. She serves as Music Director for the Southern Cross Soloists Winter Music School and tutors for the Australian and Queensland Youth Orchestras. After moving to Australia in 2003, Louise became a freelance musician, performing with a range of orchestras and chamber ensembles. She also collaborates with singer-songwriters like Katie Noonan and international artists such as Il Divo and Josh Groban and creates new works with composers, choreographers, and artists.

Therese Milanovic is the pianist for Muses Trio and a dedicated performer, educator, and advocate for musicians’ health. After overcoming a decade of playing-related injuries through the Taubman Approach, she became Australia's first Taubman Instructor and is now its most experienced teacher. Therese promotes injury prevention and rehabilitation, offering online learning, consultations, and workshops for music educators. As a performer, she collaborates with musicians, has worked with Topology, and has performed internationally. She also focuses on chamber music, promoting lesser-known repertoire, particularly new works and compositions by women.

Christa Powell is as comfortable in the theatre pit as she is in character wardrobe on stage, or playing choreographed violin solos for the many dance companies she collaborates with. She excels in diverse settings, from orchestras to playing with Led Zeppelin and performing solo violin in Heidi Duckler Dance Theatre. As a founding member and creative director of Topology, one of Australia’s leading creative arts organisations, she created the award-winning Top Up program. Christa is a highly respected performance artist, violinist, and session musician and when she is not playing with Topology or for theatre, she performs a wide range of contemporary chamber music, her long-held passion.

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. The creative arts curriculum team recognises the ongoing custodians of the lands and waterways where we work and live here on Darug country and on all the lands on which you are listening today, we pay respects to elders past and present as ongoing teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories. We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.

Tahnae Luke

Well, welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast at the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts curriculum team. My name is Tahnae Luke, and I'm here as part of the secondary curriculum Creative Arts team, and today I'm so lucky to be joined by Sam Foster and Hayden Jones from Shock Therapy Arts. This was founded on the Gold Coast in 2015 and has established an impeccable reputation in the delivery of multidisciplinary performance that focuses on Australian social, political, and cultural currency, and evokes an audience's authentic engagement and delight.

Their vision is to create transformative arts experiences through telling stories that explore what it is to be human: provocative, challenging, uplifting, impactful. They collaborate with others, driven by their epic values to engage, provoke, inspire, and connect, and this results in creating arts experiences that have positive social, economic, environmental, and cultural impact.

It is an absolute delight to be joined by them today to discuss their devising process. Hello, Sam and Hayden. Welcome to Creative Cast.

Hayden Jones

Tahnae, thank you so much for having us. We're thrilled to be with you.

Tahnae Luke

Let's jump straight in and have a look at how you have structured your company to include collaboration and innovation. Why is this approach so important to you?

Sam Foster

Well, look, I think it starts at the beginning. I mean; to give you a very brief history, we started this company as a vehicle for ourselves essentially 10 years ago now. We were both actors for hire or actors, and you know, directors and, and working in the industry as freelance artists. And we both got to the point where we'd worked for a lot of other companies and toured schools extensively. And when we came together to, the first production we did was a ZEAL THEATRE production, actually. We put together a production of the Apology under Stefo Nantsou’s guidance and we were sort of touring as a Queensland arm of ZEAL for many years prior to that. And we, we basically went, we wanna start our own thing and create our own work. And at that point, Stefo was actually one of the ones who suggested, well, you should probably brand yourself as your own entity and create your own idea. And you know, you don't just have to be a proxy of ZEAL.

So, we kind of started the company and we only ever really saw it as a vision for ourselves to work. We went, we wanna work, we don't wanna sit around and wait for the phone to ring and wait for someone else to give us an opportunity. We wanna go out there and create stuff and share it. And we'd got to a point in our career, where we'd had enough experience and enough runs on the board where we felt ready to do that. And so, we started the company just with this vision of providing ourselves quite selfishly with opportunities to work and provide employment for ourselves. And then it quite quickly, it evolved into something bigger than that where we then went, oh, well, we're now in a position where we can bring in other artists to work with us to achieve our goals.

Because as anyone who's worked in the arts knows you can't do it alone, and there are so many various elements that require a whole bunch of other people with skills that we don't have, that, whether that's administrative skills or technical skills or creative ideas, other aspects of putting a show together or touring other actors, writers. There's a massive kind of network and, you can't do it all. So, we very quickly realised that in order to achieve what we wanted to achieve, we were gonna need to collaborate with other people and that this vehicle that we created could be an opportunity for other people to work and to express their own creative, ideas and put them out into the world.

And yeah, now it's evolved into that much more so, where, where we have, 4 permanent staff and a bunch of, regular artists and creatives that collaborate with us. We've got a board that come from a very diverse background of skills, and all of that feeds into us being able to kind of continue to do what we do and improve what we put out into the world.

Hayden Jones

And I think where those, other artists plug in with the, their collaboration really sort of depends on the work at what phase they come in. Because our works are so varied. You know, we do a lot of issue-based theatre shows in high schools, but we've done, you know, large scale performance installation works at music festivals, for examples. It's about creating moments and those other creatives are, you know, a vital, part of, of how those moments are shaped and the story that we're all telling together. We have to sort of share a vision for what, what that story is and what each moment in that story is.

Tahnae Luke

And so that collaboration also then supports this philosophy of epic values that was mentioned earlier. Could you elaborate a little bit more on what do you actually mean by epic values being part of your philosophy?

Hayden Jones

Yeah, well, it's not a reference to Epic theatre, although we do a lot of, what you could call Epic Theatre. That's an acronym for us, of what, what's really important to us and the, those serve as kind of, you know, the beacons for us when we're making the work to check in with and make sure it sort of aligns with our values and that we're making work that is authentic to that. So, it stands for Engage, Provoke, Inspire and Connect. So, engage, you know, first and foremost, a show, it doesn't matter how important the subject matter is or how interesting the process is, the end result needs to be engaging for people. And I would say that's especially important in an environment like when you're doing issue-based work for secondary schools.

At the end of the day, if the kids aren't engaged with what you're doing, then the rest doesn't mean anything. So, although we're not in the business of creating pure entertainment, it has to be a good show, has to be an engaging story, engaging characters. You know, we use comedy, we use a lot of different conventions. It has to be fascinating to watch, you know, just the mechanics of how we execute the performance.

Sam Foster

Yeah. And that people might think, oh, E, they must mean entertaining. Must be one of the things. But we talked a lot in creating this value system where we went, well, it's not always purely entertainment. There are many instances where entertainment is not the goal actually, and so a more appropriate fitting word that covers everything we ever do is engagement. We have to engage in the process as artists making it, and the audience has to engage with what they're experiencing.

Hayden Jones

And then I would say, you know, if we go to provoke, provoke is an interesting word, you know, for us it's not about being just provocative for the sake of being provocative. It's more like one, now that we've got you engaged, how are we challenging you to reflect and analyse and interrogate certain ideas and interrogate your existing opinions. We always try and respect the intelligence of the audience and just present something that is complex and has multiple points of view, and then you're provoking people to reflect upon that, you know, in their own time, in their own way.

Inspire: I think there's a couple of ways that this can happen. You know, a young performer is inspired by watching us perform and, and think, oh, that was really great, and they feel inspired by that. I also think in the narratives we tell; we want to challenge people. We tackle things that are often tricky or often, you know, sensitive territory, tough things, complex things to sort of unpack and tell a story about. But ultimately we wanna leave people with… either kind of motivated to go out and make a change in the world or… with a sense of hopefulness, you know, that they can look at an issue and although the issue itself might be disturbing or troubling or, you know, just something that's really like sort of current and relevant challenge of our times, that they leave with a sense of hope and feeling inspired and that in some way that that show has a sort of an echo long after we've left that that's our ultimate hope.

Sam Foster

Yeah, and I would add to that, that inspiration comes from a lot of different places and we have to stay inspired to keep doing what we do.

And then I think the fact that that connects to, we often talk about the why. Why are we making this show? Why now? Why this story? And that, for me, comes from inspiration. You have to be inspired, and if you go, ‘I feel totally inspired’, that we have to share this story right now, there's an urgency to that. It has to come out. Well, you have to do this. There's many different ways and reasons why you can be inspired to do something, but if there's no inspiration, then you're never gonna get out of bed and bothered doing it. It's too hard.

Hayden Jones

And the basis for that, I guess is our, our strong belief that, idealistic belief that theatre can change the world, that art can change the world, you know, and give people a way to find meaning in their life. Like we genuinely believe that. And if that wasn't there, then you wouldn't sustain in it.

Sam Foster

And the last letter in the acronym C, it stands for connect and for us that connection, again, a bit like we were talking, it sort of relates to we have to be connected to what we're making. We have to be connected to the themes and the ideas, and passionately and intimately feel that it's an important thing to share.

And theatre, unlike a lot of art forms, has this. It's a connecting point. It's a conduit for society and groups of people to gather to come together. It's the most ancient form of community in the sense that in order to create community for thousands and thousands of years in every culture around the world, people have gathered together to connect over stories.

We see what we're doing as just a continuation of that very, very long ancient thread of culture. Connecting people, connecting in a community to share ideas, to understand who they are, to understand why we do what we do, to improve our sense of wellbeing as a community. And theatre to this day, when a group of strangers gather in a space and they sit down and they watch a story we're doing that, we're doing, yeah. It's a bit different, we're not sitting around a campfire in the middle of the bush or whatever. We're sitting in these nice plush seats in a theatre, but we're still connecting. We're still coming together. We're connecting with a story. We're connecting with each other. So that's our values. They're our epic values.

Hayden Jones

That's our TED talk on values. Yeah.

Tahnae Luke

It is so clear that in your work that these values heavily impact each of your performances as your shows use those multi-discipline techniques. I've seen you use multimedia, film, transformational acting, and props, as well as a variety of styles such as verbatim, Epic Theatre or physical theatre. There's just so many. How does playing with those techniques and styles excite you?

Sam Foster

It starts with the story to be honest. We don't have any particular one style that we go, we only make work in this style, So, we always start with the theme or the issue or the story that we wanna tell, and then from there we start to go, what form could we use to tell that…to best tell that story? What form should it take? There are a couple of exceptions to that where we might have an idea. You know, a recent play that we've just been finishing off is, we sort of knew from the beginning that we wanted to create something in an Absurdist kind of style, so that was in the back of our head as we were making it.

Hayden Jones

Again, that came from the subject matter really. It's quite an existential concept, and so that style kind of fit. Setting is a, is a consideration for us as well. You know, in terms of space and style. Like if we know something's gonna go into a school environment, you know, we'll start with what are the givens, you know, and we kind of work from there.

You know, if we're making a big, a large-scale work for a music festival, you know, how do we still engage, provoke, inspire, and connect in that massive space. In an open field with, you know, in that is a transient space with tens of thousands of people moving around who aren't gonna sit down and watch a narrative.

And, and we might start with a theme or an issue about, you know, environmentalism or destruction, whatever, but we still have to hit those points, and we still want people to walk past and go…and it pulls their attention…and they go, ‘Whoa, that's cool!’ And they get something out of it or wanna engage with it.

Sam Foster

Yeah, So, the form then we start having discussions about the form it should take, what's the most appropriate form for that story and what's gonna make it land in the best, in the context of all of those parameters that we're working within.

Tahnae Luke

So, you've just touched on some of this devising process that you go through. So, you're talking about it, starting with an idea, a concept. What are the next steps that you take when you are coming up with an idea in that devising process?

Sam Foster

Usually, we spend a lot of time together running the business and we still perform the shows as well as write and direct, even the ones we're not in. So, we spend a lot of time in our company van, driving around from gig to gig, and usually starts with a. ‘Hey, do you reckon this would be a good idea?’ or we'd start just riffing. We'd just start talking back and forth about an idea or a theme or something comes up at a school or someone mentioned something, or one of us has seen a show or a TV series or a film, and we're like, oh, there's this great thing.

And so, we get inspired by something. We start a conversation, and then if that conversation keeps going for a period of time, we tend to go, ‘I think that's got legs. I think there's something in that’, because if it's grabbed our interest and our attention and we can't stop thinking about it and can't stop talking about it. For me at least, I don't know, and I'm sure Hayden is probably the same, it's a bit of a clue to go. I think we're onto something here. So, then at that point we'll go, alright, let's start to dig into this further. And of course there's other factors, like we know if we wanna do a new show for our education program or we've been given a commission for a festival or whatever. And so, we might have a deadline, and we go, what are we gonna make something about? But once we decide that theme, that idea is what we wanna explore, we then start this deep-dive process of research, and we just start finding as many references, and that can include specific research into the theme or historical references. It could also be research into like, this is where form and style kind of merge in, where we'll read or watch other pieces of art and films and things that sort of are doing something in a similar vein or that might feed into the work just as a reference, as a bit of an inspiration and so we'll just start with a document.

Hayden Jones

Yeah, just a brain-dump document, or anywhere where we can just dump anything, because you know, we're like bower birds or treasure hunters, where we try and go and open-minded and just learn as much about the subject matter as we can and anything that we think might be interesting or a good theatrical moment, you know, oh, that's a good idea for a scene. Anything.

Sam Foster

Or a photo, yeah

Hayden Jones

Cause at the end of the day it has to, yeah, you know, it has to work in a show. Anything. Yeah, we just put it in there. Dunno where it's gonna fit in, but that caught my attention.

Sam Foster

So, this document becomes this bible really for any work that we're making. We've got a bunch of these over the years of the different projects we've worked on, and you know, it'd be quite interesting to look back at some of them 'cause they're just these random dump of ideas and like say there's images, video links, website links, specific bits of narrative, quotes from books, other play references, everything.

So, we just look for anything that we think might be interesting and often at that time there's a bit of courage and bravery that you have to go, I don't know how this is gonna make its way into the finished product of this play or this work that we're making, but it's interesting and it might make its way in the form of a character. It might make its way into the form of a design element in the show. It might make its way into the show in a music reference where we go, there's something about the tone of that sound that, might make its way into the soundscape that we use in the piece. So, it literally can be anything.

Hayden Jones

But it's more about how you remix things. You're taking these, you know, disparate ideas and pieces, and you are remixing it into something that is new and feels fresh. And so that's how, that's how we do it. And then we, we've got it all there. We can go through, and we'll find that like a story starts to emerge, or a structure. Like with our show, Undertow, we wanted to talk about mental health, and it's such a broad topic. It's like, well, how do you capture that in one character without just focusing on one particular kind of ailment? You know. And it's like, well, okay, we need multiple protagonists. So, that leads us to a choice of structure to do, like a tandem narrative with multiple protagonists. So, deciding on a structure for the piece is a really important next step.

Sam Foster

Yeah, and that usually comes, that and the forms sort of come together at the same time as we're collecting all of this information and raw data about the theme that we are interested in, we start thinking, ‘What's the narrative?’ Is it a narrative structure? What narrative structure is it? What styles should we lean into? What form should it lean into? All of that stuff starts to emerge.

The next thing we tend to do is like a timeline, or a just a bullet point, where we map out the beats of action of the whole piece. So we go, what's the first thing that we know? What's the first thing that happens? And then what happens? Or as a result of that, what's the next thing that happens? And then what's the next thing that happens as a result of that? And then what's the conflict and why does that change the story?

So, we start to then create this. We've got a giant whiteboard in our office, and we just start to put the, the show in this kind of, almost like, I guess how a filmmaker would storyboard a show actually, when I think about it, It's very similar to that process where they use visual images and they'll map out the show in a series of storyboard images. We kind of do that in beats of action where we go, this is where we meet that character. This is where the conflict happens. This is where the resolution happens. And as we do that, we start to kind of, see is it a traditional three act structure? What kind of form does it take? And we start to move things around and we go, I think that needs to happen earlier. I think we need to find that out earlier about that character. Or we need to plant the seed for that at the beginning in the first act so that in the third act there's a payoff. So, all of that stuff, when you've got it sort of laid out in this form, we find that really useful to be able to move things around.

Hayden Jones

I think this is a way, particularly when we're working with narrative, a way for us to have a sort of a blueprint or, you know, just those barriers that that kind of keep it driving in a certain direction that is thought out. And of course, that still leaves room for discovery and play.

Sam Foster

Yeah. So, once we've done that. Once we've got that map, that blueprint, then we start scripting, then we start writing. So, then we'll go, alright, if that beat…we'll look at that beat and then we'll go, is that one scene? Is that 2 scenes? Is that 3 scenes?

So, then we'll start to kind of, from the blueprint, we'll work out exactly how many scenes there might be. And so, if we've decided that there's, for example, a 3-act structure, we start to break down how many scenes are in each act. Where do the beats of action that we've laid out in the blueprint, where do they, in which scenes do they fit specifically? And then we have sometimes then written a bullet point version of the scene. So, we'll go scene, act one, scene one, and we'll just go, this happens, that happens, this happens, that person enters this, that. And so, it won't even be dialogue or anything, it'll just be what actually happens in the scene., and then we go on.

And so, then we'll have that, which is a bit more, of a more detailed version of that blueprint with a little bit more meat on the bone. And then we go away and we…'cause we co-write a lot of the time…we'll go, all right, you write that script scene, I'll write scene 2, you write scene 3, and we go away and we write it. We write, start writing the dialogues and the characters. And then we swap over, and we get proofread, each other's work, and we go, ‘Oh, I liked that bit, and what about this?’ And so, then we'll have a second set of eyes on the idea. And of course, this is informed…we decide on the blueprint and the beats of action together. We're completely united on that.

And I think this is where we're unique and we've done this not only with ourselves, but when we co-wrote Crossing the Divide with Benjin Maza, who's an amazing First Nations artist in his own right, and we asked him to co-write that work with us, and we did the same thing. We all decided on the whole blueprint of the show, and then we all went away and the 3 of us all wrote different scenes. And so, what you get is this kind of unique voice and you start giving notes and feedback to each other's writing, and anything that gets missed or any holes or any dramaturgical problems, you can kind of cover it because you're like, oh yeah, right, I thought that was obvious.

Hayden Jones

Yeah. We'll find links to actually, ‘I worked that link into this earlier scene that I wrote’, so it ties together. So, actually in the end result, we've all worked on each scene and it becomes, it becomes more, more muddy as to whose actual scene it is. We all share ownership.

And, where the devising kind of works its way in for us. I mean, we've made shows together where the script was only ever a bullet point beat sheet, and then we improvised from that. But within a scripted show, often that's how we'll do it. We'll go actually, let's create that scene on the floor, but we know what marks it has to hit and then the actors can play and the actors might make offers that are even better or funnier and you keep it. And there's been a lot of sequences we've made like that. We made a kids show where we predominantly worked in that way. Where there would be structured improvisations, not just free rambling, but this is a structure, improvise within that. We do a bunch of different versions of it, and we sit there and writing down, you know, recording it, and writing down what was good about that run. And then we'll go home that night and we'll do a Frankenstein of all the best bits. And we go, that's now a scripted scene that we can bring in tomorrow and give it to the actors and go, cool, learn that. It came from you, but now it's set and we'll learn that version.

Sam Foster

We have also done the other way or slightly different variation, where we'll draft a scene, or we'll draft the whole script and we'll go ‘cool’. We'll do multiple drafts, and we'll get the script to a certain point. And then what's unique about us is because we're not only writers, we're makers as well, so we write the thing and we direct it and perform it. What that allows us to do, and where I think this is a bit different to how other companies might work, 'cause the writer then hands it over to a director and a bunch of actors to bring that to life. We take that script, as developed as it can be, where we get to a point where we go, ‘I think that's as good as it can get for now’. We then get on the floor, and as we start moving that script and we start bringing those characters to life, other things emerge and we go, this feels too wordy. I feel like I don't need to say that line. I feel like I can do that with a look to the audience and then we'll go, yeah, agree and we'll go, ‘cut’. We just cut the line and then we'll go, I feel like what we thought was obvious, isn't obvious, and maybe we need to add a line to make that a little bit more clear, or this transition is not working, it needs something to bridge that gap.

And so, then when you get on the floor, we start making these edits in real-time very quickly. Like we just go ‘Nah! It’s not working. Cut it.’ We're not attached to the script at all. So, like we're constantly tweaking and adding or, and little things too. So, the process never really ends.

Hayden Jones

Yeah. Every time you do a theatre show, is an opportunity to try and get it closer to the mark or further realise what it is kind of destined to be.

Tahnae Luke

It sounds like such a fun, rewarding, and quite a unique process that you've been using throughout all of your performances. I'm gonna challenge you now to have a think, if you could go back to your teenage self, who was devising a performance at school, what advice would you give yourselves?

Hayden Jones

Think about your unique voice. I think before you can make a work. It's like being a songwriter. It's like you have to know what you wanna kind of talk about and put into the world. Which is a really exciting, you know, empowering thing to go, I can have a voice this way through my art and put it out there for people to consume and have their own thoughts and feelings about. But I think you have to have a certain sense of yourself. You know, none of us are…are finished products, we're all works in progress, but, you know, you have to have a sense of some of your, I guess, core values or thoughts, or even if you're just exploring that you, that the work could be about that. But you, I guess you have to know what you wanna talk about or what questions you want to ask. And then I think it's about being open, being playful, being willing to experiment, and being willing to fail publicly. I think there's a lot of great artists that aren't willing to fail publicly, and they, as a result, they never share their work with anybody. And they might be creative geniuses, but they don't get their work outta their basement, and I think that's really important. You're better off making something that is full of problems and imperfect and putting it in the world than having a masterpiece that no one ever sees.

Sam Foster

Yeah. For me, it's really simple. The simple advice is don't expect it to be perfect on the first draft or the first time you get up and do something. I think a lot of young people we see, their creativity is stifled, and they're restricted to even try, because the expectation that they place on themself is that the first version of that is meant to be the penultimate version that's meant to be this award-winning, you know, amazing piece of work. We've been doing this for 20 plus years, and the first I can tell you the first draft of any script you write is not the final product, and it's quite often not very good. But there's the bones of an idea in there that we can tease out and flesh out and make into something that we're proud of.

So, we just trust that process now. We know that that's the case. You just gotta start somewhere. Start with one page of dialogue. Start with one scene. Don't worry about writing the whole play. Just have you got an idea? You just need a starting point, and you don't need the whole thing fully formed in this perfect structure from the outset.

Hayden Jones

Well, that's…well that’s why you have to trust the process. It's impossible to know what it's gonna end up being. But you might have an idea of what the finished product will be, but you can't possibly know because the, that's informed by the process and you don’t know what's going to come up.

Tahnae Luke

That's great advice and I really hope that if there are students listening that they're hearing that, ‘trust the process’, because that is fantastic for them to kind of understand that. So now looking forward towards your future self, what excites you most about the future of Shock Therapy Arts?

Sam Foster

I'm excited 'cause I can see, a potential where I think, you know, Shock Therapy is in our DNA. So much of us, as people, is in the company, is in the ethos of why we do what we do. It's in the work itself. That's not gonna change. That will always be the case. As long as we're involved in the company, that will always be the case.

But what excites me is that more and more we're bringing in these new artists with fresh ideas. We've just cast a new actor in one of our shows who's fresh. It's her first professional job and to be able to provide that opportunity for her to kind of express herself creatively, through our vehicle that we've created, that's really rewarding. Of course, it's rewarding for us to make work ourselves, but it's equally rewarding to see other people be able to have an opportunity to put their stuff out in the world. And if we can continue to do that into the future, that's quite an exciting prospect for me.

Hayden Jones

Yeah, fully, and…and I think being excited, like I'm excited about the shows we haven't made yet. That next opportunity to try and make something that's even better or that might stay with somebody, you know, there's nothing more rewarding than having somebody come up to you and say that they were impacted by something that you made. You know.

Sam Foster

So, I think we're drawn to, if something excites us and if it scares us, the more I get into my career, if I go, ‘That kind of terrifies me. I've never done that, but I'm really interested to try it’, I wanna challenge myself to kind of lean into that, that thing that scares me, and to try something new. So, I think there's a lot of things we haven't done that would be exciting to explore.

Tahnae Luke

Thank you so much for joining me today, Sam and Hayden. You have created such inspiring and powerful work and now, especially after hearing about your philosophy and more about your process, it's only made me love your work even more. So excited to see what you're doing next and all these possibilities that you've just talked about. So, thanks again.

For more conversations, check out Creative Cast and be inspired every listen.

Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes, or email Jane McDavitt at CreativeArts7-12@det.nsw.edu au.

The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts advisor, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. The Creative Arts Curriculum Team recognises the ongoing custodians of the lands and waterways where we work and live here on Dharug Country and on all the lands on which you are listening today.

We pay respects to Elders past and present as ongoing teachers of knowledge. Songlines and stories. We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.

Tahnae Luke

Well, welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts Curriculum Team.

My name is Tahnae Luke, and I'm part of the Secondary Curriculum Creative Arts Team, and today I am lucky to be joined by Adriane Daff, one of the core artists of The Last Great Hunt, and she'll be discussing their devising process of The Last Great Hunt theatre company. Welcome and thank you so much for joining me today.

Adriane Daff

Thank you so much for having me, I'm really excited to be here.

Tahnae Luke

As are we. The Last Great Hunt is an internationally renowned artist led collective of five theatre makers. But why did you design the structure in this way and that you chose to have this collective shared vision as creators and innovators?

Adriane Daff

Well, when we first, uh, got together, I mean, a little bit of a backstory, we were seven theatre makers that were working independently in Perth and not independently as in we weren't working together. In fact, we were, there was so much crossover amongst all of the seven of us at the time that Kat Osborne, who was one of the original seven of founding artists of The Last Great Hunt said, what if we all kind of got together and then had this centralized core that was like, Handling, um, producing, and grant writing, and all that kind of like back end work, and there's a lot of it, that goes into making theatre.

And so, in the beginning, that's kind of how we started to share resources and kind of formalise what was happening informally, which is that we were all working together anyway. Uh, that was 10 years ago. And one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you today is that in the last six months, we’ve formalised and kind of like written down and made policies and procedures around what that actually means.

So I wanted to share with you that like the structure that we've arrived at is something that we call our circle structure. The circle structure is non-hierarchical and artist driven and collaborative. So, with our circles we have the art, which sits at the centre, the art is obviously making the shows, that's why we exist. There's vision and culture, which kind of encompasses everything. And vision and culture is how we shape the company, organised as organisationally, operationally, and culturally. And then within that, we have finance, compliance and governance, marketing, prospecting, which is what we call going out and getting money and bringing it back in, and the Clubhouse, which is like our venue in Perth, our Mayland's Hall where we make and rehearse all of our shows. So, with the circles, um, there's five core artists now. I'm one of them. There's also Arielle Gray, Ada Bazaar, Jeffrey Jay Fowler, and Tim Watts. A core artist sits in every circle, but we all don't sit in every single circle, if that makes sense.

So, what that means is that the artist's view is represented in every single circle. And we have this shared responsibility amongst the five artists, our director of operations, Jac Low, and our producer, Georgia Landre-Ord. So those two, even though they're not core artists, they're like super important to the running of the company and there's something about the non-hierarchical circle structure, which means we're aware of everything that's going on in the company at all times, even if we're not directly responsible for it.

And it's just being like, honestly, it's such an incredible thing being able to crystallize this and being able to explain it to you in like hopefully fairly simple terms because it is a real reflection of how we've been working in the past 10 years. And more than that, it's a real reflection of how we make the shows.

So, it's this kind of, you know, this ripple effect out from the centre of this circle. I've been talking about the art and how we make shows and how we're in process when we're devising theatre but it's also how we run the company. So, it’s new. I look forward to talking about it more with more people because it is a little bit out there and sometimes it takes a moment for people to wrap their heads around it. But it's, that's how we work. And that's how it's a formalisation of how we've been working for the past 10 years.

Tahnae Luke

What an amazing way to have the artists so fully in every part of that theatre. Very exciting to see how that continues to grow. Do you still refer to yourself as the Hunters as part of those artistic core?

Adriane Daff

Yes, we do. And so, the Hunters are the five core artists and then our Director of Operations and our Producer. And the Hunters, it's a term that we use, you know, it’s a little bit of a nickname, but what I love about it is that it actually, you know Jac, Director of operations and Georgia producer, yes, they're not like making the shows with us, like on the floor, but they’re such a part of the lifeblood of the company, that the Hunters is just a really lovely way to acknowledge that shared responsibility, that collaboration, a term that refers to all seven of us as running the company. I think sometimes there can be a little bit of a temptation to be like, oh, there's the artists, and then there's the people who aren't the artists. And I mean, in terms of my own perspective, I think everyone is inherently creative and everyone who's working in the theatre company is making creative decisions all the time. So, it just feels like a lovely non-hierarchical term to explain that you're in The Last Great Hunt.

Tahnae Luke

Yeah, beautiful. I think I want to come and be a Hunter as well. What are your core values that you've kept through from the beginning of this is that you're creating rigorous, relevant and entertaining original work. And so, it's such a powerful statement of intent that you've created there. Why is this philosophy so important to you and the work that you create?

Adriane Daff

Yeah, and I'd love to actually tackle like each of those adjectives one by one, like starting with rigorous. I mean, one of the reasons why they're called The Last Great Hunt, it's an unusual name to call your theatre company. We were really, really meaningful about it when we first came together and The Last Great Hunt for us is something about going out there in the pursuit of something. We're really process driven, we're not about outcome. And so, the idea of The Last Great Hunt is that like, it's got this grand feeling of like, all right, we're going out there. It's going to be the last time we do this great hunt. Now, obviously we hope when we're going to make a show, it's not the last time we're going to make a show, but it's that spirit of throwing everything we've got at it.

So, how that plays into rigor is that when we approach a show, I mean, we've been doing this now for 10 years and we've got some really successful shows. There is a version of our company where we're like, we know that works, let's just cut and paste, change a few little things, we know that our audience love this show, blah, blah, blah. And we could then sort of let's sit back and make that happen. But we're not those kind of artists and we're not those kind of people. So, the whole point is the rigour is like, what's the thing in the show that's extending us? What's the challenge? What's the thing that we're reaching for? And for me, it doesn't matter that we even achieve that it's, it's not a completionist attitude and it doesn't even matter that the audience might not know this particular challenging piece of the rigour that we're going after. But what I think the audience can feel is that energy of like, we're stretching, we're reaching for something. And it's an energy that I think really actively draws them into the exchange that happens between audience and artists when you're performing., There's just something like a little, extra energy or electricity in the air where they're on the journey with us. and they can feel that we're kind of really rigorously going for something. There's something I think energetically attractive about effort. And so that's the piece of the rigour. That is always, you know, and that can change. It might be a new piece of tech. It might be a new way of writing. It might be working with new people. It's sort of limitless what that rigour piece could be, but it is an energy that I think audiences really love.

And then in terms of the relevance, this also ties into making original theatre. So, we're not a company that puts on Shakespeare or other scripts that exist. I love that there's theatre companies that do that, by the way, it's really, really good for the theatre landscape. We just don't do that. And we make shows that are original, and I think that hopefully in turn makes them relevant because there might be something that is interesting to us as artists that we want to explore theatrically and that could be anything from like climate change to the story about friendship and sometimes it's both.

But I like to think that if it's interesting to us as human beings that live in this world, it's relevant and interesting to other people as well. So, there's that relevance piece that I think is also refracting what's going on in contemporary life. And I think that it's that part that hopefully makes it relevant.

And then the last piece about being entertaining is that, you know, when you're making theatre, it doesn't exist without an audience. And I think when people are using their disposable income to come and watch you tell a story, I kind of think you've got a little bit of a duty to make it entertaining. And that doesn't mean it's not going to be thought provoking. It's not going to be moving and it's not going to make you laugh, cry and anything in between. But it is at the end of the day, it is a piece of entertainment, and I think the entertainment piece speaks to how we are always thinking about our audience.

We're always thinking about like, what, you know, what does this look like to them? What does this feel like to them? So, there we put that entertaining piece in to, to that statement so that they are, the audience is really, really included in our hearts and minds when we're making shows.

Tahnae Luke

Amazing, and absolutely, you can see and hear that how you're talking, that it is such a big part of that philosophy that goes into every part of the work that you're doing.

And when you do look at a lot of your work, you're using a lot of multidisciplinary theatre processes and you're combining different styles and forms in very new and exciting ways. What excites you most about this kind of approach to creation and why do you do it in this way?

Adriane Daff

I really love this question because it also speaks to that point about being relevant.

Like, as people who exist in the world where there's new technologies that pop up and there's new things that are happening all the time, to bring them into our practice as theatre makers feels like such a gift. And I, I always liken it to, I mean, not that you or I or anyone listening to this was around when this happened, but when the camera was first invented, all these painters were like, what's going to happen to painting? It's the death of painting. This evil little box is going to do me out of a job. And I mean, that even has, uh, reflections in our modern life when people are talking about AI and whatnot, but like, what it did was when the camera was invented, they could do here's a photo of the beach. Here's exactly how it looked. Here's a photo of the forest. It's exactly how it looked. And then painting went, oh, now we can do abstract, we can do cubism, futurism, expressionism, blah, blah, blah, all the isms that came out of that because they didn't have to catch, slice of life realism anymore. And one of the things I love about making theatre is like there's movies and TVs and documentaries and all this wonderful stuff out there that will give you the realism,

it will give you the absolute snapshot of, of life exactly as it is. But with theatre, we can be a little more abstract, a little more playful, a little bit more impressionistic. And again, I think in doing that, there's that active energy exchange between audience and artist where they're like, oh, that's what I think this means that. I'm going to join these two pieces together. And it's just, I mean, I find it, that's why I love theatre. I find it such a fun way to kind of watch and take in art. And then, you know, kind of practically what that means is we work with a lot of cameras, and we work with a lot of projection and a lot of technology. I mean, sometimes even infusing like filmic aspects into the work that we're making as a way of being like this stuff exists in modern life and here's how we can kind of juxtapose or implant it into the, into the theatre that we're making to just, sort of as a little experiment and kind of see how that sticks. So, it's kind of interesting to be part of this movement in theatre that they're calling cine theatre, like cinema combined with theatre. But, audiences really love it and I think we really love making it. And it's a fun thing to watch in our company, how it's evolving and how we're continuing to use it. We don't always use it, but it is just one of those textures that's out there in the world that we often are interested in playing with.

Tahnae Luke

Incredible. And we see that in a lot of your work and it's really exciting to hopefully see some more of it in upcoming work that you've got. So, let's now move on to looking at a little bit more about your actual process. So, like when you're creating these amazing shows, you're starting from nothing at the start.

And at the beginning you use this term that you begin with free play and I was just wondering and curious, like, how do you actually use free play to then help you move towards building a performance?

Adriane Daff

Yeah, absolutely. So, we call it free play, or we call it wild play. And I, when you, and all five of us approach wild play a little bit differently, but I think the things that unify it are, it's like the step before early-stage development.

And the, it's a really, really, really important part of our process. And it's really built into how we run the company. In fact, there's even with our funding, there's funding that is permanently earmarked as wild play funding because again, as a company that makes new work, we, you know, we're constantly making new work, works at all different stages of development, but wild play is about going into a room sometimes with, I mean, I often go in with no idea. I did my wild play week, not last week, but the week before with a dancer in Sydney called Emma Harrison, who's from DMC. I'd worked with her on a dance show last year, and we just really clicked, and I was all like, I'm kind of interested in making a piece of dance theatre. I've never made a piece of dance theatre, but I was all like, oh, I should, if I'm going to, I should probably work with a dancer. And we just artistically got along so well that I invited her to come in and do a wild play. I didn't know anything about an idea. I just knew that I wanted to work with her. But after five days, boy, did we have an idea that will now go into early-stage development. And that just came from improvising on the floor, doing movement, improvising scenes, talking about what's going on in the world and what's kind of interesting us. And then that we, we got an idea out of it and other people, other artists in The Last Great Hunt might go in with the seed of an idea, and by seed, I mean, it might be a character, or I want to make a clowning show, or I want to make something about this little sketch that I drew one day. And you're like, I don't know if there's anything in it, but the not knowing if there's anything in it is really, really important because if you get the whole point is not, is not outcome, the whole point is to go in, play around in the dark or in the light, wherever you need to play, to see if there's something there.

So, if you got to the end of the week and you were like, Oh, there's nothing here, then that's fine. It's not a failure. It's the lesson you kind of go, oh, I thought maybe there was something, but there's not. But, nearly always going in with no outcome in mind and just playing around and seeing what's there, an idea does come out. Even if it's not the idea you thought was going to come out, something comes out. And this is a little bit like a little bit woo woo and a little bit magic, but I like to think when you take the pressure off yourself as an artist, and that's really hard to do, especially into the modern era. If you can just go in and think, don't think about outcome, just think about play and think about playing with the ideas you've got in the room, the show, as this kind of mystical force, it will tell you what it wants to be. If you're patient and you just really commit to kind of like playing, it will appear. It really will. That's like the most out there kind of like philosophy I have, but I really believe it. It always happens. And it's like, it's kind of magic and beautiful and I love it.

Tahnae Luke

It sounds magical, but also that sense of fun and enjoyment comes into that creation. So, you start with this wild play, then you go into exhausting the toolkit.

So how do you then move it from that sense of play, moving it, you know, along to becoming something more fully formed?

Adriane Daff

Yeah and look, the toolkit's really important because again, in the modern era, we have so much at our fingertips to play with. And I think that one thing that we talk about with the toolkit is, let's say, so we've got a show called Lé Nør, which is a foreign film told live on stage in front of the theatre audience.

So, with Lé Nør, we knew we wanted to use cameras, and we wanted to do like camera tricks that you would see up on the screen, but you would also see how they're being made. So, it looked like this beautiful trick and then you'd be like, oh, that's just Adriane, like laying on her side, pretending to like work at the desk.

So rather than then being all like, oh, we've got cameras and we're going to bring in and, we were like, let's just figure out all the tricks, the funny tricks using gravity or turning the camera upside down or trying to create camera effects that they do in Hollywood, but on stage and just with a camera and with bodies.

So, you sort of go, all right, that the kit is these cameras and a projection screen. So, if you kind of can limit the toys that you're playing with and then really exhaust every single thing that you think can think of and even when you're like, oh, I don't think we can think of anything else, there might be a couple more things that you can think of, but by limiting it, constraints are really useful when you're making art, really giving yourself some constraints.

And then if you're like, I think we really need a, I'm going to give you a silly example, a forklift in this. All right. Well, if you're going to bring the forklift in, you've got to use that forklift in like many, many, many, many ways. And look, that's kind of a personal artistic taste thing. There'll be people where they're like, oh no, there's a forklift on at the end for like two seconds, but it's really, really worth it. And you know, I've seen shows where I'm like, yeah, that really was worth it. But with us, we try and be all like, if we're going to go to the effort of bringing in a forklift, let's really make sure we use that forklift.

Tahnae Luke

So, now we've, so you've used the toolkit. And then you've got to find your best bits.

How do you know what are the best bits? Because it might be the best bit for you, not the audience. Like, how do you determine which is going to be, like, what parts are going to be kept or changed?

Adriane Daff

I mean, this, this is kind of definitely for when you're working with, when you're collaborating with other artists. But even, we don't necessarily always work in a more traditional theatre setup where you've got a director sitting outside looking and being all like, Ooh, that was good, that was good. Like the director often is doing that bit where they're making decisions based off like, I think that's the best or whatever. But with our collaborative mode of working, we’re often like and they're kind of holding something up while someone's pretending to fly. And, you know, so we film it, we'll, we'll film things, and we'll watch it back. And then we're kind of our own audience being all like, oh, that looked cool or that was funny or gee, wasn't that surprising that I didn't think that was going to look like anything, but looking at back on the archival, that actually looks really, really great. So, there's the video, which I really encourage people to use because you can just do it on your phone now, like it's just so easy.

And then sometimes it'll be one of us will be standing out if we're not needed. And we'll be like, yeah, I think there's something there. So, we're kind of trusting our own intuition as artists. And we're kind of being our own audience and being all like, if we all think it looks good, there's probably something in it to keep wanting to explore it.

And look, I should touch wood when I say this, but I actually can't think of a time when I've been working on a Last Great Hunt show with my collaborators, my other artists in The Last Great Hunt, or even external artists where we couldn't agree that something looked good because you know, you, yeah, I mean, that's also a little bit of an educated guess when you bring people in, they normally have the same taste and the same theatrical interests as you, but I can't think of any time where we were like, no, that's amazing and then another artist in the room was like, really? I don't see it. So, there's a little bit of that as well at play of, of acting as your own audience.

Tahnae Luke

So once you've now found all your best bits and you've all agreed, yes, this looks amazing on the stage and we want to keep it, how do you start stringing those pieces together into, you know, a show that's going to be more ready for an audience?

Adriane Daff

Yeah, this is, it's interesting. It's like, sometimes when you've made something, I mean, this is also wonderful and again, one of the things I love about making theatre, something will kind of be like, it'll just sort of happen. You're improvising, whether that's improvising, making an image or improvising a scene or whatnot, and then you're like, this is why I love filming things because sometimes when you're in flow, improvising, you're like, I don't know how I did that. I don't even really remember saying that. Like, so like, when you're deep in it, sometimes you're like, you watch it back and you're like, oh, I don't even like, you're deep in kind of almost like subconscious land. Like, it can be hard to remember. So, when you filmed it, you've got to be like, oh, I went, I did that. Then I did that. And then I held that. And then I said this. So, it becomes, you're trying to make lightning strike twice sometimes.

So, I actually really want to say that don't get discouraged. If something happens effortlessly and it was this beautiful moment, regardless of the moment when you're then trying to recreate that, if you're like, why does this now look so bad? It's, it's actually part of the process to be like, let it look bad. Like, let it, let it, your best bits be like, there's something here, even if they're not perfect, that's fine. That's what rehearsal’s for. So, you kind of, you are trying to make lightning strike twice with some of these moments. And it's possible. It's just it's the rigour. It's just hard, but it's possible. But yeah, if it looks a little bad at first, it's not that the idea wasn't good. It's just hard. It's hard to make theatre. It really is. And then when you're stringing things together, there will be, we like to storyboard sometimes, especially when you're making really visual theatre, where we just get A4 pieces of paper and we'll write like Adriane holds the umbrella, then the this, then the that, so that on these like A4 pieces of paper that you can kind of like lay out in front of you, and then be all like, yeah, that feels like that will kind of naturally go into that, which might be a practical thing, like, this person's already on the stage at that point, holding such and such, so it feels right and effortless to move into another visual moment. Or there might be scenes that are like, oh, we need to hear that piece of information before we see this piece of information. And just on these pieces of paper, you can move it all around or do it on a white board, and you can sort of start to storyboard it out and see what might kind of flow really well.

But one thing that I really like about stringing it together is you can make logical decisions, like we need to hear this information before we hear this information, but sometimes there'll be something where you'll be like, that just seems to flow really well, but I don't know what it means in terms of story. But once you put it in the sequence with other bits, you start going, oh, that's what that means. Like, you don't have to know. I mean, especially when you're kind of like making something where you're like, there's a gap here. I don't know what that gap's going to be yet. It can be patchy, but you can have these sequences that once you start running them together, again, I don't want to sound magical and woo woo here, but sometimes through running them together, you'll be all like, oh, we need a bit where she goes to visit such and such, who tells her something that gets her to the next bit.

So those, those stringing together, things can be like go from gut. Like if it's just an intuition that tells you it should be like that, there's probably a reason that you have a feeling it needs to be like that. And then sometimes there'll be logic decisions. So, the paper means, or whiteboard means that you can like move things around to be really robust with your order, like not to get too attached to it. And then it just becomes a really useful way to sort of be like, oh, what if we lifted this whole section? And that's how we started the show. Should we just try that? And you can, you can just sort of still play around with it as like big building blocks.

Tahnae Luke

It's interesting that you've used the word it's hard, because I've heard you refer to the last part of your process as the hard bit. And so, I was just curious, why do you use that term?

Adriane Daff

I think I like to use it because I like to acknowledge that it is you know, and again, it's embedded in The Last Great Hunt, this idea of like, all right, we're going out there and we're going to try and pursue something. It is really difficult to make a good show.

Like it’s a lot of work and it's a lot of really rewarding work, but I think that it's also to sort of, it's also to really communicate to people that it's like, it's just as hard for us as I think it is for people starting out. Like it is, it's difficult to make really, really good art. So that's why you want to try and put these processes in place and give yourself time.

I think that there's that part of acknowledging that give yourself process and give yourself some like some structure when you're going in there to the murky waters of like making a show so that you've got time to really play an experiment and like figure it all out. It doesn't, there's things that can happen quickly, but the overall making of a show. I don't think happens well in a rush. It's not a nice feeling to do things in a rush. I don't care what industry you work in. Sometimes you have to and you're like, oh wow, I got away with that, but if you can plan it in such a way that you're making sure you're giving yourself some time, you're also acknowledging that like, what you're doing is a, is a tremendous undertaking of spirit, energy, and brainpower.

Tahnae Luke

So knowing all of that and all that you know from all of your experiences, what would you tell your teenage self if you were devising work?

Adriane Daff

Oh gosh, it's so funny. Almost like makes me quite emotional when I think about like, you know, I do think that when you are called to make theatre, like when you're like, that's what I want to do. It's like, it is, first of all, I would say go for it. And welcome to the wonderful world of making theatre. So I think that what I would say to my, to teenagers or even to my young self is that I would be all like just if you've got this calling and you've got this idea, even if everyone sort of says, I don't know how that's going to work because I can't see it or I don't understand it, really back yourself and give it a go.

Because even if you, the original idea is not the one that ends up being the idea that comes to fruition or last 10 years later, it'll still be because you, put your neck out there and you were like, no, let's try this, I've got, I just, I can see it. It's really, really clear in my mind. And I think that that is exactly what's happened with The Last Great Hunt. There's a lot that's happened in the past year to really crystallize formally, like where we are, but it's the same spirit from when we very first got together. So back yourself, I guess, is the short version of that.

Tahnae Luke

And then looking ahead now to your future self, as you'll say, what excites you most about what the future of The Last Great Hunt looks like?

Adriane Daff

It's now our international touring networks are starting to open up again. One thing that we always had as a real strong suit for such a tiny company, there's only seven people in our company, is the amount of international touring that we were doing. And we're starting to see all of our networks through Asia and North America open up again. And as a company that makes shows that we want to show to audience, just the very prospect that we've got more audience to show those shows to is incredibly exciting. Watching those tours come in and seeing the planning that's going on for 26 and 2027 is really, really exciting.

It's really, really exciting to be able to get back to those places and the rest of Australia as well. We just love making a show and then touring it rather than having one life and then going back in the box. It's something that's really, really important. So, seeing that's coming back after a few dormant years as the world was recovering is, yeah, warms my heart and excites me greatly.

Tahnae Luke

Well, what also excites me is seeing your future shows. And I just want to say a massive thank you for your time and your sharing of this. This is an amazing talk about your process and philosophy and it's going to really help other people understand different ways to come into devising. So, thank you for today. It's been incredibly inspiring.

Adriane Daff

Thank you so much. And again, I, it's, I have loved being here. It's something I'm really, really passionate about. And as I said to you just before we started, I think the opportunity to be engaging with these ideas at a high school level is like such a gift. So honestly, thank you for having me. It's, I've had a ball. I could talk about this all day. You could probably tell.

Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt, at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Adviser, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]