Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 20 of the Leadership in Focus podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis, and I'm the Director of the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute.

This episode launches a new series on teacher leadership - what it is, why it matters, and the difference it makes. Across the series, we'll explore three central themes - strengthening teacher practice, strengthening schools, and strengthening the system as a whole.

In this episode, I'm joined by two recent participants in the School Leadership Institute's Teacher Leader Development Program to explore how we can create the conditions to strengthen the capabilities of teacher leaders. With me are Alicia Spinelli, a teacher at Orara High School, and Brayden Vickery, a teacher from Bundarra Central School.

Alicia began her career in business management before moving into teaching as an English teacher. She quickly found her greatest fulfilment working with the Aboriginal Education Team, where she has used her leadership skills to foster a positive workplace culture and build staff capacity in supporting First Nations learners. She has contributed to the school’s transition team, helping streamline the Year 6 into 7 transition, and is preparing to take on the role of Year Advisor in 2026. Alicia has also worked with the Learning and Support team, modelling collaboration across the school to strengthen student support and wellbeing.

Brayden grew up in northwest NSW and, after completing his postgraduate studies, returned home to begin his teaching career. He discovered a passion for small schools and the unique opportunities they provide for teachers to grow their practice and leadership. He has taken on roles as Year Advisor, Health and Safety Representative, and sports organiser within his school and across regional school-sport networks. More recently, as relieving Head Teacher of Wellbeing, Brayden has focused on strengthening collaboration between schools and families—developing consistent approaches that uphold high expectations and maximise student outcomes.

It's a real pleasure to have you join me here this afternoon, Alicia and Brayden.

Alicia Spinelli

Thanks, Joanne. It's great to be here.

Brayden Vickery

Good to be here Joanne. I've been looking forward to it.

Joanne Jarvis

Thank you. Well, let's kick off with our first question, which I'm going to direct to Alicia. Alicia. What interests you about leadership?

Alicia Spinelli

For me, it's the capacity to foster and build a positive work culture, which ultimately has a positive impact for our kids that we teach every day. I feel like when we, as teachers, have strong leadership at the top, it empowers us in the classroom and in other areas of our school to show up for our kids in meaningful ways and collaborate really effectively across different KLAs to provide all sorts of opportunities for our kids.

Joanne Jarvis

Brayden, I'm going to give you an opportunity to answer this question as well. What interests you about leadership?

Brayden Vickery

I like Alicia's point about the effect it has on school culture as a teacher leader. When I first started my career, I remember putting my hand up for everything and doing some of the jobs that some of the other teachers might not have liked doing, and taking other teachers’ extras and things, and throwing myself into those.

And it had a flow-on effect. I was someone that teachers could reach out to and they could trust to fix issues or give them advice. Even as a younger teacher, having that positive effect on the culture of the school, not only for the students but the staff as well. So, yeah, just being able to be that change you wanted to see in the school culture was really, inspiring for me.

Joanne Jarvis

It sounds like you both stretched yourself from the outset in leadership so well done. You're the kind of teachers that every principal dreams of having on their staff. Brayden, what leadership opportunities have you taken up beyond what you've just described to me, and how have they shaped your understanding of leadership?

Brayden Vickery

Well, from a young age I've been heavily involved in sports, and even when I, just when I first moved home from university, I took on president role at that at a local football club and ran that and got a lot of positive feedback there.

And in my role as a teacher, jumping into the health and safety representative role, taking on the QT Model training and facilitating that within the school for a while, which was really beneficial for me. Year Advisor, relieving leaving head teacher as well, in spurts. And I’m currently sitting in a relieving head teacher role now, which is really, I'm really enjoying that, to be honest, and hope to continue doing that as much as possible because, as you know, I'm really interested in leadership and want to keep doing it.

As far as how it's impacted my understanding of leadership, I think doing all of those things helped me to see how multi-dimensional leadership was, and it wasn't just about, making decisions. It was about communication, it was about leading by example, maybe, modelling all of the things that I wanted to see from the people I was leading at the time. So, yeah, I think that diverse range of leadership opportunities really shaped me there, that was really, really important for me.

Joanne Jarvis

And I can imagine with the examples that you gave me, it created the circumstances where you were connecting more closely with students as well and building that relationship and rapport.

Brayden Vickery

Absolutely. Especially the sports leadership, I can't count the amount of relationships I've built with students, just positive relationships with them and their families, taking them away on excursions, organising sports trips for them. I've organised northern central schools, games, bringing in schools from all over northern NSW to play touch football, and relationships with colleagues and students from other schools as well. So huge opportunities for that.

Joanne Jarvis

I've had the privilege to work with many middle leaders in regional, rural and remote parts of NSW just in the past few weeks, and some of the advice that I received from these middle leaders was when they came into town, and advice they gave to newly appointed teachers in their schools, when you come into town, get yourself involved in the local sporting teams and make sure you get out there and watch the students play so that they you can comment on their achievements in school. So, you're building that relationship. What do you think about that, Alicia? Has that been your experience as well?

Alicia Spinelli

Definitely. So I moved to Coffs Harbor last year. My family and I moved up here, and I do physie, or physical culture, as most people know it. And I think the impact of just having that community inside and outside of school has been so beneficial and really cementing myself in the community and building those positive relationships in and and out of the classroom and having those common bonds with, you know, people when I'm very clearly not from here, has really helped, I think, build those bridges to get across.

Joanne Jarvis

Absolutely. It's certainly a common theme that I've heard, in my travels as well.

Alicia, you've described some of the opportunities that you've had in leadership so early in your career as a teacher leader, why do you think it's so important for teacher leaders to have these opportunities to grow?

Alicia Spinelli

I think it is so important for teacher leaders to have these opportunities because it empowers us to be the leaders of the future. No one wants to be thrust into a position and feel like they're floundering. You know, I think for me, it's been really beneficial to have these leadership opportunities with a really strong mentor, overseeing the process and giving me immediate feedback on the ground about how things are being received and what areas I can improve in my leadership, which I think in turn then strengthens my ability to go after opportunities in the future and be a really, really effective middle leader.

I think if we're not giving teacher leaders the opportunity to step up, we're reducing the impact that those leaders could have in the future. And we're also reducing the opportunity for true collaboration between the executive staff and the teaching staff in schools, which is so important for school culture and and the kids.

Joanne Jarvis

And speaking of collaboration, research from Leithwood and Riehl, they observe that, and this is a quote “through collaborating with teacher leaders, principals ensure that teacher leaders have a voice in the decision-making process”. So how does that idea resonate with you, especially when you think about the kind of voice teacher leaders can have in school collaboration?

Alicia Spinelli

For me, it's been really interesting stepping up from a classroom teacher last year into this sort of teacher leadership role this year. It has made me reflect on the two roles and what each side needs from the other in order to be successful. I think true collaboration helps principals be stronger leaders because you are only as strong as the team behind you.

So if you are collaborating with your team, you're receiving their insights with an open mind and then actioning that feedback. You are contributing to a positive culture and really strengthening your whole team, not just yourself as a leader.

Joanne Jarvis

And I imagine through that process of collaboration you have both had the opportunity to grow in your self-efficacy. You know, the belief that you can make a difference. That only comes from engaging in collaborative, in a collaborative culture, and you have described just now that that is part of what has helped you to grow. So when we talk about efficacy, Brayden, I'm going to ask this question of you, do you feel that that collaboration has enabled you to enhance your efficacy, your sense that I can make a positive difference?

Brayden Vickery

Absolutely. Being from such a small school too I felt like from the get go, I was often thrown into situations that I might not have been thrown into at a bigger school with more people, more senior people, doing these jobs already. So having done that so early on really accelerated my journey as a leader.

And back to Alicia’s point about only being as strong as a team behind you. Well, teachers are trying to lead that positive change, you know, in the classroom. Well, teachers are the ones that are on the floor. They're on the front line in the classroom. They’re a really good connection between the principal and the classroom that they're trying to lead that change in.

So I think it's really important. And, as I said, being thrown into those jobs as a teacher, those leadership roles really increased my efficacy substantially. I started pursuing leadership probably as a direct result of that.

Joanne Jarvis

And I imagine that there are people who have recognised both your skills and I hope have tapped you on the shoulder. A credible leader is part of a major source of efficacy, a credible leader tapping you on the shoulder and saying ‘of course you can’. Has that been an experience for you?

Alicia Spinelli

Definitely. It's been really refreshing to have, support from all levels within the school, especially being such a recent addition to the teaching team here. And we're very, very lucky that we've got a whole breadth of experience and people willing to contribute that experience. You know, for different initiatives, no matter who's leading it.

I think the other point I wanted to make earlier was, you know, this true collaboration, while a lot of it is behind sort of closed doors from the students, I feel it's really important to be modelling that collaboration to our students, that teachers, regardless of experience, background, value, belief, we can work together in order to enact really positive change. And it doesn't matter, you know, as long as our outcomes are aligned that we can work together really meaningfully. So that's been a really lovely experience for me.

Joanne Jarvis

I’m so pleased for you that's a great point.

Brayden, I'm going to turn to you for this question. The 2025 literature review that we conducted at the School Leadership Institute confirms an important sub-theme for teacher leaders and their development in terms of recognition. So what does recognition look like for you, and why do you think it's important for teacher leaders?

Brayden Vickery

Yeah, it's definitely important. It’s a funny one for me, I struggle receiving praise sometimes. I sort of try to stay modest and shrug it off wherever I can, but for me it’s a simple thank you.

Joanne Jarvis

Yep.

Brayden Vickery

It’s often really fulfilling to hear a teacher come up to me and say, you know, ‘thanks for your help on that’. Or, we actually do something at school for staff morning teas, a pat on the back award, and teachers put nominations in the box over the course of a few weeks, and and it's drawn out, we win a prize. But, looking back on some of the nominations that teachers have put in for you, and we do this to the whole staff, from our staff in the office to our general assistant, looking back at some of that recognition on written down on paper is really cool as well. But yeah, just simple thank yous, are great, but it does, it does, it motivates you.

Joanne Jarvis

Yes, yes.

Brayden Vickery

As far as that teacher leadership goes in the beginning on that leadership journey to have that validation from your colleagues.

Joanne Jarvis

Yes, absolutely. And Alicia, what's your comment on that?

Alicia Spinelli

I think for me, I didn't go with the really obvious answers of being, you know, physically recognised. But recognition to me looks like trust in my ability and intentions to do what is right for the school and for different teams. You know, for example, the ability to work with teams on strategic directions. I think the recognition of my efforts and abilities, is their trust that I am working for the the collective good and not for one person or one faculty or, you know, a personal intention. Yeah. So for me, it's the recognition that what I'm doing is making a difference. And I do have the capacity to continue on doing that.

Joanne Jarvis

What I'm hearing from both of you is that recognition is quite broad. You know, from a simple thank you all or even ‘I noticed the way you spoke to that child in the playground and, well done, you manage that situation really well’, to the recognition of saying, ‘of course you can’. That's almost the tap on the shoulder to say ‘I want you to do this, I know you can do it, and I believe in you’.

That's a sense of recognition as well that has enabled you both to engage in the opportunities that you have grasped with both hands and enabled you to develop even stronger leadership capabilities. I'm hearing that really clearly through your responses.

I'm going to ask you both now, this question, and I'll start with you Alicia, in your view, how can principals best support the growth and development of teacher leaders in NSW public schools, or in the context of the school within which you're working?

Alicia Spinelli

Sure. Look, I think, they have a really big role to play, and a really powerful thing that they can do is create space for teacher growth and capacity for teachers to engage with opportunities, where they can grow professionally. For me, the Teacher Leader Development Program was one area that I took to my principal last year and said, ‘hey, this is something I'd really be interested in doing’.

And she supported my application wholeheartedly. She's checked in with me periodically. I have a fantastic mentor this year who I work with very closely, who's also supported me to grow in that area. Which I think in turn will allow me to continue to contribute positively to the school culture and to the ongoing improvement of our school.

Joanne Jarvis

What about you, Brayden?

Brayden Vickery

Yeah. I'm just thinking back over the years, some of the principals I've had and some of the things I've really appreciated from them when it comes to that leadership development. And I think back to the principals that have really sought, or even created, opportunities for me to grow as a leader. Put things in place and had me take some control and ownership over those things.

Yeah. Those have made a really big difference to me and made me feel a little bit, a little bit more empowered to actually chase some of those leadership opportunities.

Joanne Jarvis

What would be your best advice for teacher leaders who may be a little bit reluctant to chase those opportunities, who may think, ‘well, no, I'm only a teacher, only a teacher, I can't possibly put myself forward for that opportunity’. And even in environments where I know head teachers or assistant principals may feel like you're busy enough and they don't want to ask you to do anything more, but yet you want to.

What's your best advice? So Brayden will start with you.

Brayden Vickery

Yeah, well, we've all got different strengths as teachers, I feel. And schools are always looking for different angles, different angles in to connecting with their students. Jumping on your strengths and seeking some opportunities to implement those and lead a couple of even small things around the school are a really good way to develop a bit of confidence to then go into those bigger opportunities that a principal might come to you with. But I know so many teachers, myself included at times, have that imposter syndrome going on where we are doubt our abilities, we look at the other teachers around us and leaders around us doing such a good job. We admire them. And, we don't put ourselves on the same level, and think that we can do what they're doing, that, most of the time, in my experience, I'll found that just a week or two in is all it takes to find your feet and develop a bit of confidence around that.

But definitely just take your individual skill sets and lead some programs, really small initiatives around, that might be taking a group of students and running a lunchtime program or something around you love for the sport or the photography or whatever it might be.

Joanne Jarvis

Adam Grant actually talks about imposter syndrome, and he describes it as an enabler. A healthy dose of imposter syndrome is the impetus required for you to actually stretch yourself and further work harder, try harder. It's really interesting. It doesn't always have to be the negative. It can be the drive for you to do what you've done.

Alicia, what are your thoughts?

Alicia Spinelli

Look, for me, I often reflect on how much we do for our kids as teachers. And I think, you know, if any student came to me and said, you know, miss, I really want to learn how to do, you know, solve complicated equations, even though that's not something I could explicitly teach, I would find someone to help them.

And I think we forget that we are all teachers, we work with teachers, and there's something very powerful about going to teachers or going to head teachers or executive staff and saying, ‘hey, I really liked what you did, and I'd really love to learn how to do that’, because it’s in our nature, to want to mentor people and give them the stepping stones that they need to succeed.

So, it's certainly a learned skill, being able to ask for help and admit where you do need a little bit of coaching, but I think that's by far been the most powerful thing for me, to put my hand up and say, ‘hey, I want to have a go at that. I want to have a practice. I want to have a go at running it myself, you know, can help me’. Because, you know, the nature of teaching is we’re in it for that reason, we’re in it to help people.

Joanne Jarvis

Really good advice from both of you. So don't sit back and wait, you know, put yourself forward as well and accept the responsibility to grow yourself as well. And imposter syndrome will help drive you. Don't let it, crush you though either.

In terms of your leadership development, where are you headed next? I'll start with you, Alicia.

Alicia Spinelli

A very timely question. So my situation here, I'm, have a substantive role on the Central Coast, and I'm on loan to my current school. We have moved to the area, so I've sort of got some feelers out for different opportunities in positions next year that will continue my ability to have some capacity for leadership.

I'm hoping to stay in the learning and support space. So I am a year advisor for next year, and I've been working closely with our transitions team to do some really powerful work with our 6 into 7 transitions. And I'm looking to, lead in that space at my current school.

Joanne Jarvis

Such an important role, really important, thank you.

So, Braydon, in terms of your leadership development, where are you headed next?

Brayden Vickery

So in my current role as relieving head teacher at Bundarra, I’ve recognised the challenges that come with our small school, our environment and having the collaboration with parents and carers in developing their kids and their learning. So a big goal of mine is to develop those, use my leadership to develop those communication channels for the parents and carers so that they can more easily work with us and the students to achieve that growth that we're looking for.

Joanne Jarvis

And are you also considering engaging in a formal leadership role in the future?

Brayden Vickery

I certainly hope so. I've been sitting in this relieving role for most of the year, and I've done smaller relieving head teacher roles before that. So, I'm definitely putting the feelers out there and building my capacity this year so that I can hopefully put a solid application together if something was to come up.

Joanne Jarvis

And Alicia, are you also aspiring for a formal media leadership role?

Alicia Spinelli

At some point in the future I think that would be wonderful. Being a year advisor next year, I'm not sure how that will sit with my responsibilities. I'm currently the 2IC of teaching and learning, so that formal leadership role is on the horizon. Whether it's next year or the year after, we will see.

Joanne Jarvis

You've both described leadership so eloquently and you've highlighted the fact that it is about influence, that is something that has come through very clearly to me. You've been able to influence the practices of students in your own class and support their learning but also influence the practices of others across your school.

So I'm really congratulating you both on having that impact so early in your career.

So that's a good time for us to end our podcast this afternoon. Thank you, Alicia and Brayden for sharing your insights and perspectives on teacher leadership and the difference strong teacher leadership can make for students across our system.

Alicia Spinelli

Thanks so much for having me.

Brayden Vickery

Thanks for having me, Joanne. Really enjoyed it.

Joanne Jarvis

For our listeners, please follow the School Leadership Institute on X. Our handle is at NSWSLI. If you are interested in the Teacher Leader Literature Review, this is available on the Department of Education's website under the Teaching and Learning School Leadership Institute menu. For NSW Department of Education staff, you can also access our leadership resources on the website.

Thank you for listening.