Episode 5: Virtuous Educational Leadership

Episode 5 of the Leadership in Focus series is a two-part episode exploring virtuous leadership. SLI Director and host Joanne Jarvis is joined by Distinguished Professor Emeritus Viviane Robinson to discuss her new book, 'Virtuous Educational Leadership: Doing the Right Work the Right Way'.

Part 1

Introduction (JOANNE)

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in New South Wales public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities. Here at the School Leadership Institute, our mission is to support all New South Wales public school leaders by providing world-class, evidence-informed leadership development programs and resources. Our School Leadership Institute conversation series will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. We'll talk to experts and share their tips and experiences on leading with purpose and impact. I'm JOANNE, the Director of the New South Wales Department of Education's School Leadership Institute. Welcome to the Leadership in Focus series.

JOANNE

Hello and welcome to our fifth episode of the leadership conversations podcast series.

I'm Joanne Jarvis and I'm the Director of the New South Wales Department of Education's School Leadership Institute.

In this two-part episode, we will be discussing virtuous leadership, with Viviane Robinson.

And today happens to be a special day because it is the launch of her most recent book 'Virtuous Educational Leadership: Doing the Right Work the Right Way'.

VIVIANE

That's right, Joanne. It's an exciting day for me.

JOANNE

It sure is.

Viviane, you are a Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of Auckland and Visiting Professor at University College, London.

You have dedicated your career to improving educational leadership, policy and practice through a program of research and development, focused on the impact of educational leaders on the learning and wellbeing of their students.

Your academic research on how leaders build trust while attempting to improve teaching and learning has informed the profession and certainly the work of the School Leadership Institute.

It's a real privilege to have you join me, Viviane, as we discuss your new book and this important topic.

VIVIANE

Thank you, Joanne. It's a real pleasure to be here.

JOANNE

So let's start with why did you write a book on virtues?

VIVIANE

Well, that's a great question, because I had to answer that question myself as I was writing the book. And the virtues area is completely new for me and so it made it a more difficult and lengthy process because I wanted to include it.

The reason why is because I wanted to talk about leadership character. I have, as you know, written a book on student centered leadership, which includes a bit about leadership capabilities, meaning, knowledge and skills. But there seemed to be something missing, which is examining the motivations, the dispositions, the desirable dispositions of leadership character. And in philosophical terms, desirable dispositions of character are called virtues.

And by getting into virtue theory, I was able to get a rich sense of what they were and how they developed and why they're important. I didn't realise that virtues, at least in Aristotle's notion of virtues, is a really rich concept.

It is. Aristotle wrote about virtues because he was interested in practice. And virtues are not to be studied in the abstract, but they inform action. So that's why I wrote a book about virtues. I had been increasingly aware that, especially in education, motives matter.

JOANNE

For sure.

So what do you mean by doing the right work the right way?

VIVIANE

Yes. Well, that's the subtitle of the book, Doing the Right Work the Right Way. And it meant I had to figure out what the right work was and then what doing it in the right way was. So maybe I'll start with the right work and how I arrived at that.

JOANNE

Sounds like a good plan.

VIVIANE

Yeah. Well, the right work for educational leaders, is the work of dedicated pursuit of the purposes of the institution of education. And when I say purposes, I have to refer to proper purposes, because many of your listeners will know that sociologists of education have spent a long time talking about the improper purposes of education, schooling, functioning, to sort and stream students in ways that reproduce existing class structures, etcetera.

So there's been a lot of work on the improper purposes of schooling, and those are not the ones that constitute the right work, the right workers pursuit, of the proper purposes. Well what are they?

Well, philosophers of education have been debating this for a long time, and there's no definitive answer, of course, it's a never ending debate. But, as I delved into some of that literature, there were 3 purposes of educational institutions.

And it made sense to me that there's not just one, there's multiple. And I think it will make sense to your listeners as well. The one that is probably most salient is preparation for life to enable students to lead fulfilling and productive lives.

And we pursue that through a curriculum, which is designed to help students both take their place in society and eventually transform it in various ways. So I call that the preparation purpose. But there are alongside that 2 other purposes.

One is socialisation. Enhancement, recognition and socialisation into various communities, whether they be cultural communities, ethnic communities or disciplinary communities. So you can prepare students in mathematics, for example, but you can in doing so, you're socialising them into a certain sort of community.

And mathematicians would increasingly want that socialisation to be induction into a community of mathematical thinkers, not mathematical get-the-right-answers. The community. If you see what I mean. And depending on the pedagogy you're using in terms of preparing students, you will be wittingly or unwittingly inducting them into very different disciplinary communities.

And the third one is the development of self-regulated autonomous learners and persons. So it's a development of personhood and that is increasingly recognised in modern curricula in terms of the notion of self-regulation, independent learners, critical thinkers. And so that one is also important.

So the right work is dedicated pursuit of the purposes of education.

JOANNE

So in terms of educational leadership.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

Which we know is absolutely vital.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

I'm wondering how distinctive the purposes are in terms of how leaders are effective in their role for education?

VIVIANE

Yeah, well, that's an important question, Joanne, because there is something of a debate about whether an educational leader is any different from any other sort of leader and we went through a period in the late '80s, early '90s, where, some policy makers thought that you didn't have to be a teacher in order to lead a school.

In other words, that leadership is leadership. And the notion of educational leadership, well, maybe it was good if you knew a bit about teaching and learning, but you didn't necessarily have to. And, in my book, I argue that educational leadership is distinctive.

And the reason it is distinctive is because those purposes, those 3 purposes I talked about, are distinctive. And the one that for me is most distinctive is the preparation purpose.

There is no, you know, religious institutions socialise, right. Community groups socialise. They may even in terms of wellbeing and development of autonomy, you know, you can imagine certain youth groups and institutions will have that purpose.

But preparation in terms of teaching the curriculum, that is what elected politicians and democracy say they want their citizens to be skilled and knowledgeable about, it seems to me that that is a very distinctive purpose of education.

And given the distinctiveness of that purpose, then it follows that the role of educational leader is distinctive and it is deeply embedded in the work and the science of teaching and learning.

And so knowledge of that science, particularly the recent science, where we know more about the role of memory, the way cognition works, how students develop cognitive schema that help them master a discipline, like your own of history. The particular forms of inquiry that characterise the community of historians, in order to do that well, you need to know a lot of stuff.

Not only about history, but the pedagogy and the forms, the structure of the discipline. And so leaders don't need to know that for every discipline, but they certainly need to know how to recognise when it's happening well or badly.

They need to know about the sort of pedagogy that fosters, what we call deep learning, which is the comprehension, the problem solving, the transferability from, you know, the skills you're learning at historical inquiry into other sorts of inquiry, critical thinking about what's happening in the world today and with our leaders today, that all requires quite a lot of knowledge.

And so, we've gone from the distinctiveness of the purpose is my argument, which creates distinctive work of leaders based on distinctive science of teaching and learning, that is the knowledge base of our profession.

Plus some management stuff, which can come from non educational sources, but it's got to be tailored to the educational context.

JOANNE

It's a very clear description of why schools require strong educational leaders.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

Because of their knowledge of pedagogy. But I would imagine it's also about being able to ask the right questions as well.

VIVIANE

Yes. Yeah. Well, and you don't know what questions to ask if you don't know very much about teaching and you haven't had a background. And you don't know, you might, you might learn how to ask the questions, but you don't know how to evaluate the answers.

I mean, I'll never forget when I was studying, parent governors of New Zealand schools. We have these parent elected governors at every school in New Zealand. And this was a very economically disadvantaged community.

And this parent asked the principal who had, and the board of parents had received a report from the principal, about the students' achievement. This is in a primary school. And he said, 'is that about where the kids should be in their achievement?' And he was told, 'yes'. And then I took those same data back to people who knew more about that curriculum area than I did and they said those children were 18 months behind where they should be in terms of age-related benchmarks.

He could ask the question, 'is that where they, the students, should be?' He couldn't evaluate the answer because he didn't have enough knowledge of curriculum progressions.

Yeah.

JOANNE

So, Viviane, you've talked to us about virtues.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

Are they the same as values or how are they different?

VIVIANE

They're very different. Values are qualities that are important. Philosophers argue about whether values are things that are believed to be important or think qualities that are really important. But anyway, they're qualities that are of importance.

Virtues are character traits. So virtues are evident in, in our behaviour. One is said to have a virtue of courage, for example, if over time you are observed to be reliably courageous in appropriate ways. You have the virtue of courage.

You can talk about courage and its importance all you like. But if you don't do it, you don't have the virtue of courage. So virtues, unlike values, are practical things. Things that are seen and done in practice.

Values, and I use in my book, I use the example of Enron. Enron, that financial company that went bust and took many of its clients and all its staff, thousands of them, with it, and began the financial crash in the United States. Enron had a set of values that went in front of all its documents and all its retreats and all its strategic planning processes, and they were about integrity, commitment, etcetera.

Well, integrity was about the last virtue that was displayed by that company. So, it's a really good example of the difference between. I mean, they, they, they espouse them as their values, and their vices were the opposite.

JOANNE

So they certainly didn't live by what they said they planned to live by.

VIVIANE

Yeah, yeah.

JOANNE

So let's explore now then, the 3 clusters of virtues that you describe in your book.

VIVIANE

The work of the educational leaders, their distinctive work, is the dedicated pursuit of those 3 purposes.

And how do we do that? How do we actually get more detail about what that work is? And the way we do that is through the science of learning and teaching. That tells us quite a lot these days about what sort of teaching is going to foster the deep learning that modern curricula wants students to acquire and master.

So that science tells us what teachers should be doing. And then, so, leaders need to know how to recognise that and how to create the conditions to enable teachers to do that.

And that then tells us the relevant virtues. So the relevant virtues are about solving the problems collaboratively that stop that happening. Okay.

How do we then take teachers who are not teaching in that way, who don't have the relevant knowledge, students for whom it's extremely difficult to teach in that way, how do we then, as leaders, create the conditions that enable that sort of teaching and learning?

And I argue in my book that, that is a process of figuring out how, in your particular context, taking everything into account that's operating in your context, how you pursue those purposes, against all sorts of obstacles and difficulties and I call that a process of complex problem solving. Collaborative, complex problem solving.

So what are the virtues that leaders need to do collaborative, complex problem solving? They need 3 sets of virtues.

One set is, I call leadership virtues, which are quite, I define quite narrowly as what are your motivations for being a leader? And that's where moral purpose becomes absolutely key. That you, you stay awake at night because there are students in your school that you know are well behind and you are dedicated to doing something about it.

And that's a virtuous leadership motive, moral purpose, as opposed to I want to be a principal because it's a status thing for me, because I want the money, because I'm dead scared that somebody else I don't like is going to be the principal.

I'm not saying you can't have any of those motives, but the major motive should be the concern and care and passion for doing your utmost for the students.

JOANNE

In the Institute, we have a set of Leadership Mindsets.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

And at the centre of our Leadership Mindsets is student focused, which says that I keep students at the heart of my decisions.

VIVIANE

Yes.

JOANNE

Which is basically what you're talking about there.

VIVIANE

Absolutely. I'm working in a very large high school at the moment. And like in many such schools, the members of the senior leadership team are heating up particular improvement projects.

And in New Zealand we are changing the standards for literacy in the national assessment of 15 year olds, because we have been qualifying students who actually don't have the literacy required to enter university or indeed other training opportunities.

And so the literacy standards are going to be beefed up to emphasise more comprehension, writing, things like that. In the trial testing that the school took part in, only about 40 per cent of students of that age level, in fact the year before, passed the new standard.

It's not in place yet, but it's being piloted. Only about 40 per cent. And this woman, whose come from, from perhaps the wealthiest independent school in the country to, for girls anyway, to this comprehensive school that serves a quite socioeconomically disadvantaged neighbourhood.

She has led this project to do something about it. She is not satisfied that there is going to be over half the students failing this first level qualification. And so that's her moral purpose. She needs other, she needs other virtues as well as that leadership virtue, moral purpose, that's driving her leadership, but that one's absolutely key to the work that she's doing.

The other virtues that she needs, so that's the first cluster, is the leadership virtue. The second cluster is, she needs a whole lot of what I call problem solving virtues, to be able to solve the problem of how do we change both the quantity and quality of literacy teaching across the junior school curriculum in the high school, so that we do better as a school.

And those problem solving virtues involve the ability to make it the strategic focus and keep it, and not only make it the priority, but keep it the priority in the face of all the other things coming in. So those are the strategic, it's a cluster of, of strategic virtues, that sit under the problem solving.

The second skill she needs is analytic virtues, which is your causal thinking, your causal reasoning, your deep curiosity about why these, so many students are failing and inquiry into how they're being taught, what are the current opportunities to learn the required sorts of literacy being given to students in these classes in junior high school now.

So she gets a causal map and then from that she needs to be able to establish what are the requirements for a decent solution. And these requirements are very likely to be in tension with one another.

Well, we need it to not cost us a huge more amount of money. We need not to have too many teachers leaving because they're, they feel like they are having to completely change the way that they're teaching. We need to be highly supportive.

We need to involve the students and their parents. And we need to have a new pedagogy and a new timetable to give these students more opportunities. So there's massive tensions in that set of requirements, and that's where she needs, as well, what I call imaginative virtues.

So you've got the ability to unpick all these apparently conflicting things and find ways, principled ways, of putting them together to craft a solution. And I think complex problem solving is creative because there's always tension.

There's no point saying, well, we can't satisfy the teacher's desire to not have more work because they're already overloaded and improve the literacy because there's a tension there that has to be recognised, talked about and managed. And that's, 'how can we do this in a way where we get as far as possible, a satisfactory way of dealing with both and all the others?'

So when I'm working with this team, we are trying to manage sometimes up to a dozen of these requirements. And then we have the solution, strategies, which are then implemented and changed and we learn as we go.

So that's the second cluster of virtues, problem solving, which have these three categories underneath. Strategic. Analytic. Imaginative. And then the third cluster is all the interpersonal ones, which is your relational trust, you know, you need that, because this work is always collaborative.

There's very few problems that leaders sit in their office and chew their pen and figure out and do it all on their own. They need others with them. They need a team. So what are the interpersonal virtues that are needed to build trust while you're doing this risky work of solving this complex problem?

Part 2

JOANNE

Welcome back to our podcast on virtuous educational leadership with Viviane Robinson.

In part 1, we started to explore the virtues of leadership.

In part 2, we’ll continue this discussion and explore what virtuous leadership looks like in practice for school leaders.

Viviane, I want to ask you about relational trust.

There is sometimes a misconception that in order to build collaboration, one must first build trust. However, you often highlight that trust is built whilst resolving problems together.

VIVIANE

Yes. And leaders build trust by helping teachers in a respectful way and an honest way, solving problems that everybody cares about. That's how you build trust.

For example, a leader's concerned about the word 'problem'. They're concerned sharing the data. So they're indirect about the need to change or improve and hoping to lead the teacher to it in a way that doesn't upset them.

And as I coach leaders in those conversations, it's amazing how often leaders increase mistrust unwittingly by their indirectness. By not saying, 'these are the data, I find them disappointing for these reasons. And so I see a duty to work with you to understand why this has happened'.

Conversations like that, which make it okay straight away. Put it on the table, non blaming. 'This is what I want to work with you on'.

And that's the moral purpose coming through in the honest conversation, that integrity in terms of the way the leader talks with the teacher.

JOANNE

So that's the third cluster of virtues, the interpersonal is really about trust.

VIVIANE

Yes. Yeah. Because without trust, teachers won't take risks. Teachers won't describe their vulnerabilities. There will be defensive behaviour on both parties. They will feel disrespected. It doesn't work.

JOANNE

Are there other elements along with trust in that third cluster that you want to highlight?

VIVIANE

Yes. There's the element of courage. And you've got that as one of your Mindsets in the Institute, Joanne. Courage is, is a very important virtue, interpersonal courage. Because improvement requires talking about why things, current routines, current practice, is not good enough.

It's not good enough in terms of the students, if we say we've got, we're motivated by moral purpose and we see results for some groups of students, like we've got. Like, nearly always, there are pockets like that, larger and smaller depending on the school.

If we can't have courage talking about it, everybody's tiptoeing, there's undiscussables. There develops a culture of we don't want to upset people. We will pussyfoot. In talking about courage, however, you have to be aware of the vice of rudeness.

You know, I mean, I talk in the book about what is needed is not raw courage, bull in the china shop stuff. And so how do we integrate? And this is this notion of integration, again, the virtue of respectfulness, with the virtue of courage and the virtue of open mindedness, which is a really important virtue in terms of learning about whether or not you, your beliefs are accurate, your beliefs about what's causing the problem, why it's a problem, etcetera.

So, as people become more skilled in having conversations that are honest and respectful and truth seeking rather than truth claiming, so that's the open mindedness one, they build trust far more quickly and they become more respected. So you get a virtuous circle happening.

JOANNE

Sure. And curious would be an absolute, vital element of those sorts of discussions wouldn't it, of a curious mindset?

VIVIANE

Yes. And the curious mindset I put into the analytic problem solving cluster because one needs to inquire into what is happening and why. And that feeds into the student, emphasis on student voice as well. Ask the students why they're not coming to school and don't ask them once.

Ask them and listen empathically with deep listening and non blaming and non instructing. Because until you find out why they're not showing up, especially if it's about this teacher I hate, you'll be putting solution strategies in place that are misaligned to the cause.

JOANNE

Sure. So, so what do you consider to be the right work the right way as it relates to virtuous educational leadership?

VIVIANE

Okay. Well, just to recap, the right work is following the science of learning and teaching in pursuit of the proper purposes.

JOANNE

Sure.

VIVIANE

Which is the competencies and outcomes that are specified in various degrees of detail in curricula. And putting in place all the routines and the structures and the professional learning and everything that teachers need to do, to do that.

The right way is doing it in a virtuous way, and there are no rules about virtues, I'm afraid. There's only deep understanding and wisdom about how to make decisions or take actions that are appropriate in context.

But the right way, if we take an example again, I mean, I used a complex example of that school where the literacy results in the junior high school were so disappointing. That example, is to bring together your virtues of, the problem solving virtues, inquire into the problem. Do that collaboratively.

When you've got agreement about that, move into what are, what I call, the solution requirements. What counts as a good set of solution strategies? When you've got agreement on, and there's usually multiple ones, and their intention. And then you start doing the imaginative work of how do you reconcile them?

So, there's doing work the right way, means bringing all the relevant virtues to bear in solving the problem. Let's take a simpler example, an abusive parent, who has completely abused you or one of your teachers. You have to do something.

Responding in a virtuous way means, as far as possible, respecting that parent, but having integrity in terms of explaining why the abuse is unacceptable or should not be repeated. But at the same time, empathising with the frustration and anger of that parent

And being knowledgeable. Let's say the parent's got really angry about a resource that the teacher has decided to use with, within the class. So you're knowledgeable in being able to explain to the parent why that resource was chosen and what its educational purpose is.

So you can see you're bringing together your respect for self as leader, for the teacher and the parent, all of them. Your integrity in saying why, that behaviour, you don't want it repeated. Your educational knowledge about that resource and what the educational consequences are of using it or not using it.

Collaborating as far as you can. Listening to the parents reaction. Being open minded rather than too judgmental about that parent, even if you don't, you don't agree with their religious beliefs or whatever it is. You still are curious about why. You're courageous.

So that's doing the work the right way. Bringing together the relevant virtues to take action, solve the problem, to act as a leader.

JOANNE

It's certainly a complex role.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

And really, when I listen to you talk about how they all come together, underpinning all of that is the moral purpose of why we do what we do as educational leaders too.

VIVIANE

Yes. I think that's what makes leadership challenging, is that you're never in pursuit of one thing.

JOANNE

No.

VIVIANE

You are bringing together multiple virtues and responding in a sufficiently excellent or even satisfactory way. And you can't make rules because that context of that abusive parent is a particular context that particular combinations of virtues are relevant to. And in a different school or even a different parent or different teacher, it'll be another.

But if you have deep understanding of the virtues, you've got more ability to be creative and to use them in principled ways and see how they can work together.

JOANNE

I've always enjoyed listening to you speak about the importance of leaders understanding teachers' theories of action.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

What's your best advice to principals who are seeking to manage teachers, who we can only assume, wish to do their best but may struggle to engage with improving their practice?

VIVIANE

Theories of action really are the sets of beliefs and motivations that explain why teachers do things certain ways, or in this case, don't do things the way the leader would wish them to do. So they explain what teachers do and don't do. So they're quite powerful theories of action.

And I have written extensively about it in my previous book, Reduce Change to Increase Improvement. That's probably one of the key ideas in the book and how you find out what a teacher's theory of action is.

In this book on virtuous educational leadership, I vest the inquiry into teachers theories of action as part of the analytic virtues. It's part of discovering the cause. So you want to improve a teacher's practice, it proves to be difficult, so you go into listening deeply and getting curious about why the teacher is not doing what you want them to do.

That means discovering their theory of action in a way that the teacher says to the leader, 'yep, you finally got it. You finally understood what I'm doing. Instead of judging me, you finally understood me'.

Doesn't mean that that theory of action is any good. Because we're, remember, we're student centered. We've got a moral purpose. We've understood and respected the teacher. We've listened to why they're teaching the way they are. But we've still got in mind that it's not delivering for her student, his or her, students.

So, the virtue involved there is an analytic virtue and an interpersonal virtue. The analytic is the causal inquiry into why that teacher's practice and the interpersonal virtue is listening, respecting and being curious. There's a bunch of virtues going on.

JOANNE

So your best advice then to principals is to find out teachers' theories of action.

VIVIANE

Yeah. That's that first step. Yeah.

JOANNE

Suspend judgment.

VIVIANE

Well suspend judgment while you're doing it. Because otherwise it'll all be about the leader's theory of action and not the teacher's theory of action. There'll be a bunch of instructions about, or nice suggestions or nasty suggestions or whatever, depending on frustration levels to that teacher to do something different.

The first step is find out why the teacher is not doing what you want them to do. And in in doing that, you're discovering their, if you listen well, you're discovering their theory of action. And that gives you the clue as to how to help that teacher improve.

For example, they're not using rich text, they're continuing to use quiz sheets, and they're not using rich texts because they're terrified on the basis of previous experience that the kids will misbehave and they'll lose control of the class because the kids can't read well enough.

They can't understand these texts. So if you discover that, then you have some really good clues about how you need to help that teacher or somebody needs to help that teacher.

JOANNE

Great advice to principals. Thank you.

VIVIANE

Yeah.

JOANNE

I've really enjoyed listening to you speak about virtuous educational leadership. How do school leaders develop virtue? Can we learn how to be virtuous?

VIVIANE

Let me use an example of courage.

I mean, we know now that infants differ in their demonstration of courage. Some are much more timid than others. So there is obviously something genetic going on. So, so we might say then that a leader has, relative to other leaders, a timid personality.

And it's been manifest since they were a baby, since they were an infant. But the fact that that leader has a timid personality on the whole doesn't mean that they can't develop the skills of being more courageous with the right sort of support and help.

And indeed they do, because I run workshops where that's one of the things that we actually do, through saying, give us the context, give us a situation where it's difficult for you to be courageous, show us, through a rehearsal, what you say and don't say and why.

And sometimes when they do that, I say to them, 'well, yeah, I can see why it's difficult for you now, because you're recognising that you're being quite blunt and rude'.

So they've gone from being defensive are not saying very much at all and beating around the bush and then they try to be courageous and they are disrespectful, and they recognise that. And so that paralyses them.

But if they can learn, and it's not that hard to be more respectful, whilst having integrity, while still saying what they need to say and reframing the prejudgments and the rudeness, so that they don't have those thoughts in their head, then they can be courageous and respectful and get their message across and learn quite quickly how to be more courageous.

And over time, as you get more skilled, you get a virtuous circle going on, which is, 'gee, I thought it was going to be really hard to have this conversation and I've had this conversation and the world didn't fall around my ears. We actually made some progress together and the teacher doesn't hate me. And so, I'm more ready to have some more'. And you become more skilled.

So, your virtuousness increases with increased knowledge of what it is to be courageous and what is not and increase skill and that produces more motivation to have some more of these conversations.

JOANNE

Great advice. Now we're at the end, I think, of our podcast, although I could sit here and talk to you for hours. But when I reflect on the key points that I've heard today, I'm mindful of a beautiful quote in your book, which says, 'for educational leaders, integrity requires not only congruence between words and actions, but also that the words and actions can be educationally worthy. In other words, they serve the interests of students'.

VIVIANE

Yes, I think that's got them educationally worthy serving the interests of students. That's the moral purpose. And then integrity is one of the key interpersonal virtues that you need in order to be a virtuous leader.

JOANNE

Well, thank you, Viviane. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your insights, your expertise, and your support of the School Leadership Institute. For our listeners, make sure that you visit the SLI website for further resources for school leaders. You can Google the School Leadership Institute and you can follow us on Twitter @NSWSLI and thank you for listening and thank you very much, Viviane.

VIVIANE

Thank you, Joanne, for the opportunity.

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