Introduction

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in New South Wales public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities. Here at the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute, our mission is to support all NSW public school leaders by providing world-class, evidence-informed leadership development programs and resources.

Our podcasts will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. Hosted by Joanne Jarvis, the director of the School Leadership Institute, tune in and listen to our guests and colleagues share their expertise, insights and wisdom on leading with purpose and impact. Welcome to our Leadership in Focus series.

Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 19 of the Leadership in Focus podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis and I'm the director of the New South Wales Department of Education's School Leadership Institute.

I’m recording this podcast in the cultural hub of Lake Cargelligo Central School. With me is Eliza Cooper, the principal, and Aunty Josie, Aboriginal education officer.

Eliza Cooper has spent her entire career in education with much of this taking place on the beautiful lands of the Wiradjuri people. With over 15 years of experience in teaching and leadership roles, both in regional NSW and abroad, she's a primary trained teacher who also holds a senior leadership qualification, which she achieved whilst teaching in the UK for 4 years.

She is passionate about fostering a sense of belonging and connection as a foundation to driving school improvement and awakening the entire school community to be hopeful and curious about the power of possibility. She is deeply connected to her learning and leadership within Aboriginal education and the profound impact this has had on her professional and personal life.

Aunty Josie is a proud Wiradjuri woman and highly respected staff member at Lake Cargelligo Central School and within the broader community. Working at the school for 28 years. She plays the crucial role as Aboriginal educational officer, as well as president of the local AECG, supporting Aboriginal students and families, as well as the staff of Lake Cargelligo Central School and connected schools in culturally safe and responsive approaches.

Aunty Josie has been a cultural mentor in the school and an instrumental part in developing the Yinaagang Girls program which recently won Australian Education Award for Best First Nations program. As a trusted and respected voice, Aunty Josie fosters healing relationships and promotes cultural safety. Aunty Josie's impact resonates deeply, helping to bridge gaps and create a more inclusive environment in the school and into the community.

Welcome, Eliza and Aunty Josie.

Eliza Cooper

Thanks Joanne, thanks for coming here today.

Aunty Josie

Thank you.

Joanne Jarvis

We've enjoyed our visit so far this morning, so I'm really looking forward to this podcast with you. Eliza, could you paint a picture for our listeners of Lake Cargelligo Central School? What makes it so unique?

Eliza Cooper

Lake Cargelligo Central School, if you look at a map of Australia and NSW, it's about right in the middle, in between the NSW it's on the S. So, we're a remote school about an hour and a half from Griffith, which is our local, closest local place where we can go shopping and have services.

The school has around 240 enrolments and we have a primary and secondary part. So, it's bigger in our primary than it is into our secondary, but we're growing.

What makes the school unique is we have around 40% Indigenous enrolments in the school and that's just growing. We have a significant year group, our Year Seven that's just come in is around 50% Indigenous, which is a really proud moment for the school and we're really happy with those enrolments this year, our enrolments are getting larger. Into year 11 and 12 we're part of the Lachlan Access program, which is a connected school for 4 schools, delivering the HSC in a way that's online so that small schools can access and we share quality teachers across those 4 schools in our delivery.

What else? We have a mission which is an Aboriginal mission, Murrin Bridge, which is about 15 minutes from the school. The school is close to its cultural connections to Murrin Bridge. A lot of our families have come from Murrin Bridge or have family members that have been there. That makes it unique to the school because of our cultural history, and that's really important in making sure that not just Aboriginal students know that and our staff, but our community know that we’re centred within that on Wiradjuri Land.

Um, yeah, we have about 60 staff, we’re the biggest employer in town, which is interesting, I think unique as well. And we're split across 3 sites. There’s the main school, which is here. And then there's a complex, a sporting complex which is down the road around the corner, and an ag farm, which is further down the road as well.

Joanne Jarvis

Talk to us about your leadership journey at Lake Cargelligo Central School.

Eliza Cooper

So, I was teaching overseas in the UK for about 4 years, and COVID kind of brought me back to say, what's the next challenge? What's my next chapter? And I saw a role pop up for, Lake Cargelligo Central School, and I'm primary trained. So, the role was Instructional Leader for Years 5-8 and I thought this might be me, may not be me.

I haven't been in with secondary kids before, and I thought it could be a good challenge. So, I decided to go for the role and was accepted whilst I was overseas and then relocated my family to Lake Cargelligo and my husband at the time thought Wagga was small, so moving to Lake was a big adjustment. We've got about 1600 people that live here.

So, I came to settle in the school in the instructional leadership role, and the first thing that I was connected with, a principal at the time connected me with Culturally Nourishing Schools, which was a project around Aboriginal education and culturally responsive practices. And I actually remember having that meeting online at my parents' house where I was engaged in the professional learning and thinking about taking on this project ahead of coming.

And I think that was a really important moment for me because even ahead of starting at the school, this was something that this seed had been planted ahead of that. And I remember coming to the school and I vividly remember meeting Auntie Josie. I remember your giggle, and I remember your laugh, and I remember you looking at me going, who is this woman?

What does she mean to the school? What is this going to be about? And yes, so within my role, I was started within my instructional leadership role, which was around strengthening academic outcomes, but also a big part of that was within Aboriginal education and heading this project with Aunty Josie. But I quickly learnt that it wasn't about a project, and once I stopped seeing it as a project and start seeing it as this great opportunity for this relationship and to start something new.

Sometimes the word project just stops things from fostering in a way, it feels like something that comes and goes. So, it was the start of a great strengthened relationship between you and I, and that's bigger than any project that I'll be part of. So yeah, that was the start of it here in Lake.

And then, yeah, I fell into the principalship, which, I wasn't going for that. I didn't anticipate that for myself, but I felt so deeply connected to my work here at the school and so deeply connected to Lake Cargelligo and the people that I've met here, I couldn't imagine being anywhere else.

Joanne Jarvis

Wow, that's quite a story. And it sounds like you've got a lot further to go as well. And just sitting next to the two of you, there's such a strong connection and bond that I detect, and I've only just met you in person this morning. So, it's obviously very special.

And Aunty Josie, you're very special, I can tell, having just met you a short time myself. Could you share a little bit about your role in the school and in the broader community?

Aunty Josie

Like Eliza said, when she became principal, the whole situation changed. There was that connection between her and myself to better Aboriginal education at Lake Cargelligo Central School. Not just with the students but with the parents and the wider community. So, I guess I was the one that had the knowledge of the culture and the background of Lake Cargelligo.

So I was nurturing her to come on board and we were in this together like. So I go out and I take Eliza with me, obviously. The parents introduced her and that, and once that barriers’ broken, they all know who she is now. She can walk into an Aboriginal person's home where, we go to an Aboriginal person's home and she's welcomed.

Joanne Jarvis

What do you do to enable that? Because it seems to me that you have the title of Aboriginal education officer, but you obviously have that knowledge and understanding of what the community requires from the principal of the school to enable that connection to flourish. What did you see in her and how did you go about it?

Aunty Josie

I don't know, we just clicked, and then she got the principals role, and everything changed, it changed for the best. It's been a lot. It was a long time coming, but it's like we're moving in the right direction at Lake Cargelligo Central School and the wider community as well.

Joanne Jarvis

Well, let's talk a little bit more about that for the listeners. They may not understand the complexities of the context within which Lake Cargelligo Central School exists. And this morning I had the great privilege to accompany you to Murrin Bridge mission, and that has a significant cultural impact on the school and your connection to Murrin Bridge as well.

Could you explain what that means to you and to the school community, the connection between Murrin Bridge mission.

Aunty Josie

Growing up at Murrin Bridge, seeing the hardships when we were growing up and the way we grew up and how we were brought up at Murrin Bridge is totally different to the children that live at Murrin Bridge today.

Eliza Cooper

I think it’s, you always say to me they need to know, like when the teachers come, you always say to me, they need to know where our kids came from. And that's always sat with me, because it hasn't always been about where literally our kids come from. But when Aunty Josie’s talking about our kids, she's talking about Aboriginal people to understand where we've come from and and the mission and the importance of that in, like you said, the hardships.

But also, I would say like from Aunty Josie's story, the strength. The strength and the courage that comes in your stories to say there's this hardship but also this incredible resilience, which I think we have a lot to learn from in that space. And Aunty Josie talks about, you know, the mission and how we came to, how they came to settle on the mission, how did that happen, Aunty Josie, do you want to share as well?

Aunty Josie

My mum told me that our nan and that were taken to (inaudible) then put on a train to Menindee mission, and then brought back to Murrin Bridge where they grew up and built their lives there at Murrin Bridge.

Joanne Jarvis

And when you were showing me around, you were talking to me about the fact that there's three distinct mobs or tribes, that exist in Murrin Bridge and also come to Central School. As as the elder, the mentor, knowledge holder, how does that enable you to support Eliza to lead this school as well?

Aunty Josie

With our meetings, with Yinaagang, with me letting her know where the students come from. If a student is Wiradjuri or Ngiyampaa or they could be both, their mum could be Ngiyampaa and their dad could be Wiradjuri, so helping Eliza understand is talking to her about if the, if something doesn't sit right with an Aboriginal student, she's my first port of call. And if an Aboriginal students’ doing great that I think should be recognised, she’s my first port of call.

Eliza Cooper

And I think sometimes in complex situations Aunty Josie knows, you know everyone, you know how everyone's connected and sometimes there is those ripple effects of certain things happening in certain families, or a new family that's come into town. And Aunty Josie will know the complexities and the intricacies of relationships, where I don't hold that knowledge in the same way.

So, she'll be like this family’s in town, which might cause an issue here, or there’s sorry business, which is bringing all of these people to town. And sometimes not all of the mobs always get along all the time. And it's understanding that that they, it's not natural what's happened. As in the different mobs are here, and usually they would be on their land together with their mob.

But because of the complexity of that, there is a bit where I have to come in to learning and understanding that more deeply, and Aunty Josie is the person I turn to to say, what do you think here?

When we were engaging cultural mentors through culturally nourishing I was like, you know, so Aunty Josie was explaining that we can't just have a Wiradjuri mentor, it would be very important that we consider having 3 different mentors from 3 different mobs because that would be very important to the community in seeing that we've carefully considered, not just one knowledge holders, but different mobs hold different knowledge.

Aunty Josie

We have some of them in the community. When we go to the Land Council or the health centre, and we get advice from them as well.

Joanne Jarvis

It would be fair to say that the schools’ the hub of the town culturally in a sense, and you draw on lots of other supports and knowledge holders in order to advance what's in the best interests of the students at the school.

Aunty Josie

Yes.

Eliza Cooper

And I think the big lesson that I learnt from Aunty Josie is to say that often it's about, and in like how schools are set up, it's about inviting people in to come into the school or having things taking place here. But a lot of my learning has come from Aunty Josie, where a lot of our meetings happen outside of these gates.

It's going out into the community and Aunty Josie said, I remember that one of the very first things you said to me, it's not like , like a wave coming in. It's not about the waves coming in. It's also that drawing, coming out, that we have to show that we're going out to also to get them to come back in again, to see that a meeting can happen anywhere at any time, can’t it, or a yarn. At a house, the Land Council, Murrin Bridge health, you know, just out the front, wherever it has to happen. It doesn't have to be bound by the gates of the school because what we do and the work that we do isn't contained by the gates. It should be out into the community anyway. And that's where we've been able to strengthen the best relationships.

Joanne Jarvis

What a lovely metaphor, that notion of the waves coming in and going out. It's very special. In terms of the staff, why do you think it's important for the teaching staff at the school to understand the history, the cultural history that you've just shared with us?

Aunty Josie

It's really important because we hadn’t had a cultural awareness day for years. And then when Eliza come on board and we had our first big cultural awareness day from a staff day, we had a big day, and we done everything.

Eliza Cooper

Remember you were laughing because you told me to get the stuff for the....

Aunty Josie

We done everything.

Eliza Cooper

When you were going to light the fire in the morning. But I got the, remember, I got the wrong branches. And then Aunty Josie had to be like, what are you doing?

Aunty Josie

Cause we were having a smoking ceremony

Eliza Cooper

Yes. And I had to get - something had caught you up and I had to get them. And you were laughing your head off because I had got the wrong ones. You're like, what are you doing? I don't know what I'm doing, I’m trying my best here, you thought it was hilarious. But I learned from them. And the smoking ceremony was so crucial and so important at the start.

Aunty Josie

And the first, the first cultural awareness day for ages, there was staff here that were here for years that that never been to a, that didn't do a cultural awareness day. And after we had that first one, that's when everything changed. It was like staff wanted to know about the culture. They wanted to know. There was staff here that would have been there for 10 years and they didn't even go out to Murrin Bridge, and they were there. And Eliza was here for a couple of years, not even a year I don’t think and everything just shifted.

Eliza Cooper

And there's that bit where you said, we need it, we need this, we need to we need the staff to understand.

Aunty Josie

Where the the kids come from. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and that's why it's important to keep those cultural awareness days going. Because if we lose that at Lake Cargelligo, we will be going backwards and we just want to go keep going forward.

Eliza Cooper

I think the exciting part about those cultural days is that we get to go, we plan like... Aunty Josie does a cook up and cooks her famous Johnny Cakes. And we have, we've done some connected artworks with the staff. We've gone out on a cultural race around town where we collected clues and came back together.

The bit that Aunty Josie brings to me I think is that joy and that excitement and that happiness and it's not like professional learning sitting down at a table doing those things. We're out on country, we're exploring.

Joanne Jarvis

So, it's clear that you two have built a really strong partnership with each other. What ways have you drawn strength from each other to enable that partnership to flourish?

Eliza Cooper

I think at the start, Aunty Josie had to suss me out.

Aunty Josie

I did.

Eliza Cooper

That bit takes time. I think you had to see that I meant what I said and I said what I meant. And I don't know, probably a little bit where I’ve learnt from you. We just had to have, we had time together, quality time, where it slowed down, where there was no hustle and bustle of meetings coming, starting and ending and this false sense of like the agenda and all of those things where we've just had yarns about easy things and hard things.

Aunty Josie

That's what you call going with the flow of flow.

Eliza Cooper

Going with the flow. And a lot of our best conversations have happened outside my office because it's a busy place full of interruptions. So, we'd come down here and just have a yak or we'd go into your office and just have some time together. And I think I've learnt about pace. And I've talked to Aunty Josie about it before that she's taught me that lesson, for not only my leadership but my life: to go slow to go fast sometimes, to go, really like the pace that we go at doesn't always have to be like that.

It doesn't have to be a million miles an hour. Hhere Aunty Josie says just go with the flow, it's that, that's where our greatest learnings and our biggest laughs and probably our biggest ideas have stemmed from those times where we're just not rushing, where we're just pausing and thinking and contemplating and coming back to it or laughing about remembering some things and Aunty Josie sharing her stories to me.

I am grateful because it's slowed me down in my own life to really treasure the moments with my own kids, too. I was a million miles an hour wasn’t I, a million miles an hour at the start. That pace that just needed to steady and slow. And I feel within that, that steadiness in my leadership and where I approach conversations in different ways or to think about does it have to happen right now?

Does it have to happen right this second? Um, no. And I've learnt that from you. And I honestly can never be more grateful to Aunty Josie for the life lessons that she's shown me and taught me and where I think my learnings, I had to unlearn and I had to come from a place of vulnerability. And I chose that for myself because if I didn't choose that, I wouldn't have learned the things that I've learnt from her.

Like, as I'd say to my mum, one of the most important people in my whole life, and she’ll ask me when I go home how's Aunty Josie, because it's like family to me. And that sort of relationship I think where I'm like, I know about her and I'll worry about her because she means that much to me.

From everything that you've taught me. And I know you don't have to teach me those things. And I know that if we didn't have our relationship and we didn't cross paths, I wouldn't be the person I am today without her. And I know this only happens once in a lifetime. So, I'm grateful, forever grateful not in my leadership, but in my life for you and for everything that you've taught me.

Aunty Josie

It was meant to be.

Eliza Cooper

Yeah.

Aunty Josie

It was.

Eliza Cooper

Yeah. We're meant to come together here.

Aunty Josie

Yes. Now you make me cry.

Joanne Jarvis

That makes 3 of us.

Eliza Cooper

I couldn't have, I couldn't have done it. I couldn't have. And I was not in like, in my leadership and in my life, I was not in a good, in a good space in that space. And I don't think ... it's the profound things that happen when you when you just lean into it, you know.

Aunty Josie

We both brought the best out of one another. We both wanted the same things. We just had to work that little bit harder and wait that little bit longer to get where we are today.

Eliza Cooper

And I think all that time, all that time, that you've like you said, where you saw things come and go and every project that she's come into and every change in leadership and change in the department and change in circumstances here, always, you always come back into trust. Because like you said, the kids are at the heart. That's what you're in it for.

And both of us having that is like the thing that centred us is the kids at the heart of it, isn't it?

Aunty Josie

When it was when. It really changed when we had the cultural nourishing and then you put cards on, and cards and in that story, and then the cultural nourishing teachers and the mentors alongside and myself and you. And then one day we said, we asked Aboriginal students to do something, it might have been at assembly or whatever.

And it was like any other time it would have been, no can't do it, I’m shamed. And we don't hear that word in our school no more do we?

Eliza Cooper

No, never.

Aunty Josie

That's when it shifted. That's when it really changed. When shame was wiped out of our school, that's when that changed. And that came down to the cultural mentoring and the cultural, and teachers going out on country and your hard work getting them there and us standing behind you. Our fight together.

Joanne Jarvis

When you talk about the change, what did you see? What was obvious to you?

Aunty Josie

The students were, the students were different and then came the girl's group and came Clontarf and it all just fell into place like. Yeah, we still have our little battles, but nothing major, nothing that we can't handle.

Eliza Cooper

I think the relationships ended up looking different. And I think when I hear, like speak to Aboriginal students and Aboriginal staff they say I feel heard, to say if I'm raising something or I know there's an issue, I know if I tell you or we, like Aunty Josie will sit alongside me and we'll have the meeting together to say we're hearing and there'll be, there'll be an action, there'll be something that follows that we're hearing.

We're hearing what you're saying, and we know that that's important, that you've even taken the time to share it. So, I think that bit with the listening with staff in the same way to say suspend judgement, like take a step back and think. Sometimes people have an emotional reaction. There's a reason for that. Sometimes students aren't at school. There's a reason for that.

Sometimes families don't want to come in the gate. There's a reason for that. And when we come from that place of being hopeful but also suspending that judgement and going, I'm curious to find out why and also the supports that we put in place aren’t always... Like we've tried different supports, a lot of different supports, but we had to consider and Aunty Josie and I have had some challenging conversations and to say that, well, who decided this support was the right way for Aboriginal students and families?

Because we keep knocking on that door. Why? And to go actually that way that we're doing it isn't going to ever get us to the place that we needed to.

Aunty Josie

A lot of change.

Eliza Cooper

Yeah, we had to. And that was challenging because not all middle leadership were in the same view or some of them have been here for a long time.

Aunty Josie

And they didn't want to change.

Eliza Cooper

They didn't want to change some of the practices because it was in systems and processes that they were used to. That it was always set up that way. They felt most comfortable in it. So it's uncomfortable to go, well, actually we're doing these things which is meant to be for the right reasons, but are they actually giving us the results that we want at the heart of it, which is every child finding success and every family feeling comfortable and connected here, or no?

So, we had to unpack that and that took some time. And to be completely honest, we went forward some steps and back some steps a couple of time, and Aunty Josie put me in to be like, you’ve got to know like. And I think it has to be like that, that relationship where is Aunty Josie says, I need to speak to you and we're going to meet in my office, I know that it's something like really important, or she wants to tell me something that's really upsetting her or not right. And you’ll go it’s not right, it's not gonna happen like that. And we have that sort of relationship where I'll go, ok, I would prefer to know.

Aunty Josie

Than not to know and just let it linger. And then it goes backwards.

Eliza Cooper

And I know Auntie Josie would tell me and then we think of a way, the best way forward. Because we know that, we know that everyone has the best intentions, you know? But sometimes the way that we go about it doesn't always lead to the same outcome. So I think some people when they're set in their ways and they feel comfortable there, it can be a dangerous space when you're comfortable. It could mean that there were certain things that were happening in the school that we look back now go, we laugh, we go, why was it ever happening back then?

Because it's so far from what we do now. Yeah. And everyone's like, why did we ever just, why was it like that? But I think we had to come into this. We've come into this learning together and this really special relationship I have with Aunty Josie where we were able to have some really tough conversations. And Aunty Josie had to lead the way for other Aboriginal staff here to say, and when Minyoo was here too and Aunty Kirst as well to go, these bits aren't right.

And really and I was like, if you were leading this, if you are the person, if you were the principal, what would you do? What would this look like? How would you go about this? I think they needed to articulate in this space. They knew. They just hadn't had the opportunity to just get it out from inside their soul, inside their work, to say this is what it needs to look like.

And then we stood together and went what are our steps then, because it's not. I know that it's not me. I don't know. I don't know the best way for Aboriginal education, Aunty Josei does, and our Aboriginal staff do and our community does, and our Aboriginal students. They know. If you ask them, they will tell you as it is and sometimes that truth hurts and it's got it hurt a little bit. Doesn't it?

Like otherwise, like it's got to keep you awake at night and it does. I’m texting Aunty Josie different bits and pieces, to be like it's got to have that bit where you're frustrated in it or you're like urgent in it to go, it's keeping me awake at night. It brings me awake. Like it brings me to work in the morning to go just thinking, well, what if. Or hopeful for the next bit because that ignites me and you ignite me and I ignite you, I hope, in it.

Joanne Jarvis

Sounds like there's an enormous amount of vulnerability between the two of you, which has enabled the courage that has been required for you to make those, you know, what seem to be hard choices, but you've just described them as obvious. Should have happened a long time ago. How have the staff reacted to this journey that you two have had?

I mean, this has been you two, but it obviously has been like a pebble in the proverbial pond. It's had a significant impact beyond you two, you know, what impact has it had on the staff. And, you know, let's talk about their pedagogies. How has that transpired?

Eliza Cooper

I think like for me where I talk about Aunty Josie, or when the kids talk about it or we laugh. We often laugh about it as me being the big boss and you being the big, big boss. But I think it kind of had to be jovial like that because there is, in schools there’s that hierarchy.

It always is, you know, where it's got like the SSOs and teachers and then it's going up to middle leadership then senior leadership and then up the top. But I think we had to strip that back to go in the Aboriginal education space Aunty Josie I walk side by side. It's co-leadership in that space, like I can't be the decision maker without Aunty Josie’s voice in that.

And I think that standpoint has helped staff consider the way that they lead within Aboriginal education and the way that they approach things. I think that cultural safety and that cultural awareness and enacting that had to come from going, we are so lucky to have an incredible amount of Aboriginal staff in our school and Aboriginal students. Where we go, I don't know who to ask or how to go about this or what to do, well they're here, they just have to come and see Aunty Josie and pop in and see Aunty Josie and see in the light of what she should always be, as the knowledge holder. She has so much to share in that space and you see it come through in teaching practices. I would say our staff were very good at considering and teaching and making sure that they included Aboriginal perspective. But I think the bit that changed is probably the localised perspective.

Aunty Josie

Now that they'll come down book in an excursion where we go out on country with the kids. We go to the ochre pit, we might go to scar tree and then they do activities on them. But they always like, they always consider asking first. They'll come and then they go, Aunty Josie is it right to do this? Can we do this with the kids or whatever?

And you know, so their attitude towards Aboriginal culture has changed. Like before and I know years ago staff used to just use Aboriginal education just to tick a box. It was just a tick a box. There was nothing ever done about it like that. They didn't, they didn't consult me, they didn't consult the other Aboriginal staff and that.

But with the change now and what we're doing here, and the staff going out on country, well they know that they need to come and ask permission, they need to, there's not just a tick a box and that.

Joanne Jarvis

Talk to me about the going out on country. That sounds like that's the practical application of what is clearly a significant cultural shift in what you've achieved at the school. What does going out on country look like for the staff and what do you see as its impact on them Aunty Josie?

Aunty Josie

What I see is the staff coming back different. You know, I've been here 28 years and I've seen staff go out on country years and years, and that wasn't like it is today. They want to learn. They want to learn. And that's the biggest difference. And then they take that what they learn from me when I when I take them out, they want to bring that back to their classrooms, to their students.

And there might be an Aboriginal student in there that that has never been to the ochre pits in Lake Cargelligo themselves. But they get so excited. And I always say there's nothing calmer than going out and learning on country. I feel the calm. I was so different going to Murrin Bridge today even to the river where I went swimming. Like even up at the scar tree. It's totally different. It's another feeling

Joanne Jarvis

Could I ask you now for you to describe the Culturally Nourishing Schooling program and the impact it's had on things like student voice and the sense of belonging that they have to Lake Cargelligo Central School?

Eliza Cooper

I think being involved in the project, I had the privilege to be involved with it as a teacher first. So, I came in as the deputy principal instructional leader, but I was also teaching geography at the time, in Year Seven, being eaten alive mind you coming from kindergarten, but there was a part about the professional learning.

I've never engaged in professional learning a like it before. It was more the first professional learning I remember we had such a large group involved with it. But the professional learning is really about cultural pedagogies and culturally responsive standpoints and localising your Aboriginal knowledge. But also there's a part that's in the program that's really probably unravelling and that deep thinking and uncomfortableness of where you've thought you've known about Aboriginal education before and unpacking that. And and hearing and sharing from Aunty Josie, sharing her perspectives and the knowledge and history that sits in Lake Cargelligo.

And I had many tears in the professional learning. I think often we think about seeking out PL online about Aboriginal education or going, oh, I need to go here or I need to go there or that one sounds great. Someone else did that. But I think when all of that goes away, the biggest learning that takes place is Aboriginal knowledge holders in your community or in your school.

It's profound. Like you, I can't describe how much like Aunty Josie is my professional learning. Aunty Josie is the knowledge holder, like I don't need to go to a course to learn what I've learnt from her. And I think sometimes as principals we need to like we need to listen and leaders in that space to say it's not always about a course.

Like Culturally Nourishing Schools, it's links theory. But also, there's some readings where it's unpacking research, but it's also unpacking uncomfortable histories of the past. But then thinking about how does that really play out in a classroom, considering the relationships you have with students, the connections you have to your cultural mentor in the community. But how does that play out for you and really how you've been connecting Aboriginal pedagogical standpoints in your classroom?

Has that, have you been doing it well? Have you really considered it? And I had to come into that learning going, no ,my God, like I look back and go, I could have done it so much better, but I didn't know enough. Or maybe I didn't ask the right questions to the right people at the time to go.

I remember having an AEO at my school, in my first school that I was at, but I didn't engage with her the way that I've learnt I can engage with Aunty Josie now. Now I go, wow, like knowledge holder sitting in my school. But it seemed to be her time is connected to like managing attendance or doing those other things to go, there's this, there's this place where we need to come into to say and through culturally nourishing, to go, it's really brought your role and Aboriginal staff role in our school to the forefront, hasn't it.

To go, to see Aunty Josie co-teach. To see other Aboriginal staff inviting her into the classroom to say, could you just help me out with this and be involved with this and this. In culturally nourishing this unique environment that's created where cultural mentors watching and observing and giving feedback to the lesson and this side by side sort of relationship that occurs. I think it opens up a dialogue between two educators, but also Aboriginal students in that classroom seeing a knowledge holder and a teacher alongside one another and the teacher going, I don't know everything.

Joanne Jarvis

That’s very powerful. And I guess your own experiences Aunty Josie would enhance an understanding among non-Aboriginal educators about the impact of the past, where schooling was probably not always a positive experience for Aboriginal children and their families. Would that be something that has influenced the way you've been able to grow an understanding of Aboriginal education?

Aunty Josie

Yeah. Growing up and seeing what my well say generation I suppose, and the younger ones before me. Growing up at Murrin Bridge there, if you didn't attend school, having the welfare come knocking on your door and that, that was pretty scary.

And then it changed. Changed the way that you sort of think, like how I think. I didn't want that for my kids and my nieces and nephews or any Aboriginal student. Like, I think of all these students here as my own, you know, and I only want the best for them.

Joanne Jarvis

Talk to me about the impact of the approach that you two have taken in leading this fabulous schools and its impact on students' achievement, attendance, engagement, belonging.

What have you observed, from where you were and where you are now?

Eliza Cooper

I think going back to what Aunty Josie said, the bit about shame, that I didn't understand what that term means in the same way that Aunty Josie knows. To hear students, especially for Aboriginal students feel proud of themselves and proud of their achievements. Even morning assemblies, them standing up to receive something, that would be unheard of before.

They would not get up. They would not go up to celebrate their successes. Um, that's a big one because I remember at the start you talking about you wanted our Aboriginal students to feel proud, proud and deadly of who they are. And we're starting with, we've seen that come, we've seen that coming out the other side, haven't we?

Aunty Josie

Especially the secondary students. They were the ones, they were the ones saying shame and not getting up there, you know, too many. But that's all shifted.

I have a young, young Aboriginal girl. She was in Year 12. She went up here, she went down here,, and then she came back up. Like she did a principals welcome...

Eliza Cooper

Yeah, she presented for a principals, online principal thing, and she did a welcome and spoke to principals online as well, which would be something she would never do.

Aunty Josie

She would never have done before.

Eliza Cooper

And she, she's a mentor to the younger ones and she, she was lost in her pathway for a while. But she said when she grows up, she wants to be Aunty Josie.

Joanne Jarvis

Everyone needs an Aunty Josie.

Aunty Josie

And she but she, we did a, they did a waitressing course. They had to wait for a wake here in Lake and she led the younger ones. We only took the Year Sevens and they, and she was like come on girls. It was like and they just took, she took the lead and that.

Eliza Cooper

Student leadership is a big one and I think where we had to, where we, we've thought about what that could look like for Aboriginal students, we've listened to what the opportunities that they would like to see too. And student leaderships’ huge. But I would say at the start how much, how much, how many steps do you think we've got at the start, getting kids off the playground into classrooms?

We’re out there all day, every day. When, when we talk about that, it looks quiet now. It took us a long time to get. We would have like 15 kids that were just not in class, chasing them, getting them in, getting them around, trying to get them in. But really, we had to get to the crux of why weren't they going in there?

So we rarely have that now and if we do, between Aunty Josie and I and the other support staff in the school, it's like what is the reason? Why are we just like, they're not going to that classroom, teachers, that room because they don't have a relationship there. Or like that that staff member roused at them the other day and they still haven't mended that. So there's always a reason, isn't there?

So, we've like I'd say the engagement is significantly higher. Like I can’t, we often have a laugh and think about what it used to be like because we were like, we should have been much skinnier with the amount of steps we were doing around the playground, but the kids didn't want to go in. And now we see kids that are feeling more comfortable to be engaging and the classroom teachers are like, like my classrooms, there is so many kids in class now that the teachers are like working on actually how they're strengthening their pedagogy to cater for the needs because the kids are actually there.

And another thing is the attendance. The attendance significantly increased for Aboriginal girls. It was about 35-40% increase. Reduction in about 50% suspension rates, probably 60% suspension rate now, because we've got students who want to be here. And the reason they want to be here is because we just had to listen to what they really needed and the cultural, the culturally supportive spaces that we provide also from the students voice to say, I would engage in my maths if I had, I don't know Aunty Chantelle or Aunty Ali there with me.

Can they sit beside me in the class because I'm just a bit unsure to ask questions. Or I'd do that reading, I’d do that reading course if it could happen in the cultural hub with this person, would that be all right? We're like, whatever you need. Like I would be, sometimes we go, oh, they won't come, they're disengaged. But then when we unpack to the reason they’re actually really like exciting...

Aunty Josie

Simple. Something very simple you can fix.

Eliza Cooper

The attendance is yes, significantly. We have set our target for 227, but we're already we've already smashed that. So, we're really excited. I remember at the start we set really out there targets. But I think sometimes you've got to really have a pie in the sky to go for. So attendance, I'd say engagement, parent engagement in the schools’ significantly higher. Staff confidence level in their ability to make ...teach and and feel comfortable in establishing relationships and really considering what that looks like.

And where Aunty Josie says being on country has changed things, yes. Like one of the feedback forms said it opened my eyes. It's opened my eyes to see it from a totally different perspective to go, I didn't even consider that, and that has impacted me. I think it has to impact them professionally and personally. There has to be a bit where you've grappled with it on both sides.

Otherwise it doesn't quite settle on you in the same way. There has to be a bit where you've considered both sides. And I think you really, I think you really nurture staff to see both sides in such a safe space like the safety there to talk about it in such a way. But we, I am incredibly proud of our Aboriginal students at the heart of it for sure, because they had to lean into the changes and they had to be wanting to come on board.

And when we tried to get them to articulate it, it really came back to sense of belonging. And we unpacked that a bit more to say, I feel like I belong here because I've got staff that really care about me. Or I feel like I belong because when I'm saying stuff, I know it’s heard. Or I feel like I belong, one of the other kids was saying, because we've got legendary teachers here.

So, it was about the relationships at the heart of it to say the sense of belonging and connection, although we've seen the increase in the surveys through the standard department surveys about what it looks like, when we unpack that, relationship and I think our relationship, not in intentionally modelling it.

Our relationship had to be strong for students to understand, to say we're going to, we're going to have a chat, Aunty Josie is coming along too. We both rouse from a different space don’t we? But they’ll hear here in a different way to me. And also the praise hearing it from her is a different way from me, it settles differently, it is different. But we unintentionally, our relationship, I think, has strengthened other staff's relationships with students and probably parents’ relationships and staff, because you can foster trust.

Joanne Jarvis

Yeah, it sounds to me like the legendary nature of the staff, the legendary relationship between the two of you has expanded into the entire community because your numbers are growing. You've got 20 young ones starting kindergarten. It's so exciting. So I think that's a good time to wrap up our podcast. It's been such an absolute pleasure for me to be here and to listen to your story.

I'm so inspired by your leadership, deadly and proud, the moral purpose that’s driven what you have done here at Lake Cargelligo Central School. It's so immersed in culture, it's made an impact, it's student centred and it's just been such a privilege for me to be here.

So thank you, Aunty Josie and Eliza for joining me today to share your powerful story and your wisdom and your impact on leading a culturally nourishing school. For our listeners, please follow the School Leadership Institute on X, our handle is at @NSWSLI. For NSW Department of Education staff, you can access our leadership resources on the department's website.

Thank you for listening.

Aunty Josie

Thank you for coming to Lake Cargelligo Central School.

Eliza Cooper

Yeah we really appreciate you being here on country. I think there’s something really magical that’s created when we’re on country together and having these conversations. Thanks so much.

Joanne Jarvis

Thank you. An absolute pleasure.