Introduction

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in New South Wales public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities.

Here at the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute., our mission is to support NSW public school leaders by providing world class, evidence informed leadership development programs and resources.

Our podcast will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. Hosted by Joanne Jarvis, the director of the School Leadership Institute, tune in and listen to our guests and colleagues share their expertise, insights and wisdom on leading with purpose and impact. Welcome to our Leadership In Focus series.

Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 16 of the Leadership in Focus podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis, and I'm the director of the New South Wales Department of Education's School Leadership Institute.

With me today is Laureate Professor Jenny Gore. Appointed as a member of the Order of Australia, Jenny is director of the University of Newcastle Teachers and Teaching Research Centre and until recently was a visiting professor at the University of Oxford. She has been awarded $34 million in research grants from the Australian Research Council, Paul Ramsay Foundation and several education departments, among others. Widely published, Jenny tackles persistent educational challenges through comprehensive programs of research on teacher development, pedagogical reform and student aspirations.

Jenny's research on improving teaching and learning saw the not for profit Quality Teaching Academy established in 2020. She has received numerous awards and recognition, and the award of the Doctor Paul Brock Memorial Medal symbolises Jenny's strong commitment to equity. Welcome, Jenny.

Jenny Gore

Thanks, Joanne. It's really lovely to be here with you, another Paul Brock Memorial Medallist.

Joanne

Indeed and isn't it an honour?

Jenny

It really is.

Joanne

Okay, well, let's, begin. The words “I dwell in possibility” are displayed on a note attached to my monitor. And they're a constant reminder to me that as a leader, I need to shape conditions where possibilities are explored while seeking excellence for leaders in public education. And I noted in your 2022 William Walker Oration, you highlighted this same line from Emily Dickinson's poem, writing that these words evoke a profound belief that something other, something more desirable than the current situation, lies ahead, and that there is reason to be hopeful.

So what inspired you to focus on hope as a central concept in educational leadership?

Jenny

Yeah, well, to be honest, and that's an expression I don't often like to use because I think we should be honest in all of our speech. The reason I focused on hope was primarily because the ACEL conference that year, had the title Inspiring Hope, and they’d asked me to deliver a keynote address, the William Walker Oration, which was such an honour.

And I really felt like if the conference was titled Inspiring Hope, I needed to talk about hope. And then I discovered as I started to prepare the lecture, that, you know, we use hope all the time. In everyday language, it’s in film, it's in religion, it's in sport, it's in art. But what does hope actually mean? And so that's where I started delving much more into the literature on hope.

And I guess I discovered quite a few things about hope that I didn't realise, because it is such a taken for granted concept.

Joanne

It sure is. We know that school leaders face a range of complex challenges in their roles. Why do you think hope is especially important for educational leaders in today's world?

Jenny

You know schools are very troubled places in a lot of situations at the moment. And I think leaders have to inspire their colleagues by having that kind of optimistic, ambitious sense that there is another way, that things will get better. But I suppose what I end up really emphasising is not only having that hope or that desire for things to be different, but actually having clear pathways that we can take to enact a vision that will actually deliver on the hope.

And so I think, you know, if leaders don't have hope, it's really a big worry because, without it, you know, you really don't have that starting point, that foundation for inspiring colleagues. And I guess also supporting your students and their families.

Joanne

Absolutely. In your William Walker Oration, you discuss that there are 3 distinct types of hope: boundless optimism, hope born of despair and then genuine hope, and that expanding our understanding of hope leads to more nuanced insights. So I thought it would be useful if you unpack for our listeners the 3 types of hope that you've referenced in your work.

Jenny

So boundless optimism, you know, for me, it conjures up songs like Don't Worry, Be Happy and Everything's Going to be Alright. You know, it's that kind of positive disposition and I think hopefully, you know, we all do have people in our worlds, in our lives, in our schools who carry that kind of hope. They almost embody hope.

The people who I think really inject joy and energy and comfort into our lives, although sometimes it can go too far where it's like that's so positive that you kind of can't imagine, you know, that everything can be that wonderful. So that's the first kind, I think.

Then it's that kind of hope that's really born of despair. It's the hope that gets you up in the morning despite the fact that you're really concerned about what's going to happen that day, or you're actually desperately unhappy, but you keep on going. It's the kind of soldier on kind of hope. And it actually makes me think of the R.E.M. song, actually, you know, Everybody Hurts, but hold on.

You know and in many instances, we do have to carry that hope. But I think there's also this genuine hope, which is the kind that we really need if we're going to inspire others. And it's hope that something will happen built on a good reason to believe it will. So that good reason to believe it will actually then depends on what are the actual actions that we can take to deliver on the messages of hope that we're conveying.

And then beyond that, like it actually goes up. There's also some other nuances, I guess, as well, that you mentioned in your opening there, like hope is both individual and collective. So you can imagine, for example, the hope that a young LGBTQ+ person feels when they want to come out and they hope that their family and friends will accept them.

That's sort of an individual level of hope. But then there's the collective hope around the marriage. What was it called?

Joanne

The Marriage Equality Act?

Jenny

Yeah, the Marriage Equality Act. Thank you. We collectively and, you know, for those of us who are straight or whatever, you know, there was still that collective hope that we could make the world a better place by seeing that passed. And then there was that collective celebration.

So there's the individual. Collective. There's the fact that it's also not evenly distributed, like we don't all have the same capacity to hope. And I think that's partly because, you know, we're not all in the same position. And I think we have to recognise that inequities in society mean that, you know, it's easier perhaps for you or I to hope that we can have a warm meal tonight. Whereas other people are not even sure you know what they'll be eating.

And then I think there's also the idea that it's linked with agency. The more we feel a sense of control over our circumstances, perhaps the more we can hope. And there I think of casual teachers. You know, they perhaps have less hope than teachers who have secure work already.

And I think also, hope is future-oriented, because we're hoping for something to be different, but that's also present-centred because we need to take action in the present if our hopes are to be realised. And then I think finally, it's really, dynamic. It's something that can change. And I think that's really important to recognise as well, because if hope can change, then as leaders, we can hope to instil hope or to inspire hope or to bring things to fruition that lead to the kind of better future that we're seeking.

And I think finally, perhaps just on that, that it's really important also to recognise that there can be both benefits and dangers to hoping. And when I talk about that, you know, there’s kind of realistic hope, but also the kind of false hope that can leave us feeling kind of disappointed or angry. So if you've kind of promised your staff something that you actually can't deliver on, you know, people can end up being a little bit not only disappointed but almost angry at leaders for not delivering.

And so, you know, that challenge of when just hope become harmful. And I guess if we think about domestic violence and particularly women who stay in really harmful circumstances, we can understand that hope. Hope of a better world, hope that things will be different. But it actually can be harmful to the self. And so hope is way more complicated than I realised it was when I first went down this pathway.

Joanne

In fact, in preparing for this podcast, I have to concur it. There's, it's multi-layered, that's for sure.

You talked about optimism at the start, that sense of boundless optimism and therefore hope is expressed as much more than optimism. Optimistic people have a disposition that, you know, things are going to work out and they almost don't have to do anything. They're just a half cup full kind of person. But it is much more than wishful thinking and hope can be cultivated. Requires great courage, perseverance.

How can leaders cultivate hope in your view?

Jenny

I think leaders can cultivate hope primarily by having clear vision of what can be done, helping to build that vision and make sure it's a shared vision. Putting things in place to try things out, collecting evidence to show that they make a difference. And I don't mean, you know, the kind of evidence that I've collected in some of my studies on randomised controlled trials.

I mean, even just talking to people is, you know, the kind of evidence you get back from people having a go at something and feeling good about it. I think they are some of the key ways in which we cultivate hope and you know, it can be anything from, you know, new processes in the school around school uniform and how we as a collective community are trying to ensure our students are in uniform to build that sense of community and respect and dignity and things, you know, right through to new professional development programs, new ways of working with staffing, you know, all of the multitude of different ways that leaders try out new strategies.

I also think that sticking with things is really important. I think if we keep trying new things one after another without seeing them through, it can actually lead to that kind of frustration and disappointment that I mentioned earlier. So sticking with things, you know, choosing well, sometimes, choosing a few things to try rather than everything to try can help us to collect more valuable evidence as well as to what's really making a difference.

Joanne

I guess in that sense hope sharpens your focus on really doing the things that matter as opposed to the multiple things, because we do have that sense of urgency to make the difference we want for students. But you can't do everything all at once.

Jenny

No, you absolutely can't, despite the great movie title, Everything All at Once. You know, it's just impossible. And I think, you know, a lot of the leaders I know who have been really successful in their schools have had 1 or 2 initiatives going on, might be quality teaching and student wellbeing. And that becomes their focus for 3 years.

And so everything sort of falls into place around those agendas, and that those agendas are then shared with colleagues that, people feel really committed to, you know, helping to deliver on that promise.

Joanne

It's a good place I think to move towards talking about hope and its connection to impact, I think. And in preparing for today, but not just for today, I just love this book called The Book of Hope by Jane Goodall and Douglas Abrams. And at one point in the book, Jane says hope does not deny all the difficulty and all the danger that exists, but it is not stopped by them.

She says there's a lot of darkness, but our actions create the light. And then she goes on to say, it's important to take action and realise that we can make a difference, and this will encourage others to take action. And then we realise we are not alone, and our cumulative actions truly make an even greater difference.

So in connection to educational leaders, in what way do you think that hope ties us to impact?

Jenny

I mean, that's such a fabulous quote that you and I think, you know, just recognising the difficulty and the danger and the darkness, like, it's not easy. And I think, you know, all credit to school leaders for, you know, the hopeful way in which they enact their work because, especially over the last few years, things have been really quite challenging.

But I think in terms of hope tying us to impact it really is about that commitment to action. And, you know, the distinction I think between just hoping that things will be better and hoping in a way that will actually realise those ambitions is commitment to impact, a sorry commitment to action and carefully selected actions that can make a difference.

And so I think, you know, for educational leaders, that real clear vision of what it is that you're trying to achieve, which is the impact, and then the paths to getting there, and then of course, the hopeful kind of disposition that this thing could make a difference. I also think, though, that good evidence is really important in that, you know, if we just select something at random, it can end up backfiring.

And so initiatives that have strong evidence behind them, obviously, you know, we can have more hope if we have seen things work in another school environment or in another system. And so I think it's carefully selected, evidence-based initiatives that are often really important for actually delivering on hope.

Joanne

You've really summed up the way I recently heard Jenny Donahoo talk about efficacy when she talked about seeing others do things well, and she's linked that to the evidence as well.

Jenny

And I think that's actually a really important insight because, you know, there's the hope at the individual level. Again, as a teacher, you've seen something work in someone else's classroom that can give you hope that you can, you know, create a better environment in your own classroom. Right through to the kind of systemic hope that we might have for some of the changes that might be made by the Secretary or by others in leadership roles that could change the kind of working conditions, and the work experience, I think, for teachers, because conditions are one part of that.

But actually the experience of being a teacher and the joy that we can get from, you know, seeing students learn and seeing them grow. I think that's such a fundamental part of how we build hope among teachers as well.

Joanne

It is. It's such a joyous job.

In the literature that I was reading, they reference the hope cycle. And the hope cycle talks about the need for realistic goals to pursue as well as realistic pathways to achieve them, then the confidence to achieve those goals, and then finally the support to overcome the challenges along the way.

So in your view, how does having hope helps school leaders navigate the challenges they face today?

Jenny

Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar to what I've said previously in a way that that hope cycle of believing in alternative ways, identifying alternative ways, confidently pursuing them and getting others to help to overcome the challenges, as you mentioned in the hope cycle. I think that that's all really critical. I know you mentioned realistic goals and realistic pathways.

I suppose I just want a slight caution on that, because I think sometimes we've got to go beyond what we think is realistic. You know, what is realistic and what is, you know, fantastic. And I think, you know, we have to be careful to be ambitious. Not ambitious in ourselves, but ambitious in the hopes we have of making things in school seriously better for teachers and for students. So I think having goals that are grounded in hope and then that belief that these goals that we have and these paths of action that we've developed, you know, can really make a difference. I think the belief then becomes really important. And I love that you mentioned the support to overcome challenges along the way, because implementation of anything, it's difficult.

We know in a lot of school situations that when people implement things, they kind of go backwards for a little while before they go forwards. I will say that actually doesn't happen with Quality Teaching Rounds, the work that we've been doing. But you know, I think that it's really critical that leaders have that hopeful kind of not only disposition, but genuine belief in the difference that they can make to really help them to address the challenges.

Joanne

And you've mentioned, you know, the evidence base that's required to really support actions that are going to make a difference. And you've had a really long career in educational research and you've done this, you know, terrific work on Quality Teaching Rounds that I think motivates teachers to hope. And you built the evidence base. How can hope be a catalyst for action and change when you're referencing it with the research that you've been doing in Quality Teaching Rounds?

Jenny

I think that, again, when you have strong evidence that work, whatever the work is, makes a difference for teachers, students, school leaders, it can really inspire hope. Because I think there's so many programs that teachers encounter that perhaps, you know, they feel a little bit inspirational or we have a go at them, but then it really doesn't make a difference, or it's hard to enact.

But I think with Quality Teaching Rounds, what we've found is because of the huge evidence base we've now accumulated showing positive effects for the quality of teaching, teacher efficacy, morale and confidence, student achievement, and in a really cost effective way. And when I say student achievement, I should mention that we see better results in disadvantaged lower ECSIA if you like lower ECSIA schools.

That kind of evidence I think really does inspire hope. And then when we see it happening at a whole school level, recently Cessnock High School's been in the news quite a lot and has won, I think 3 major awards so far. So the difference that, you know, quality teaching rounds and a really strong school leader, has made it that school.

You know, when we see a school that's gone from a place where teachers were afraid to be in the school because of student violence and behaviour, to now you know, number one NAPLAN value added from Year 7 to 9, sorry, that's number one in the Hunter. Number 11 in the state, 50% improvement in HSC. Attendance has improved at triple the state average. And many more positive behaviour referrals and a community that's much more engaged. It's just wonderful to see that, you know, that kind of difference is really inspiring other schools now to get involved in the work as well, because they can see that it's doable. It's actually not that time consuming or burdensome or, it's not something that tells teachers to forget the way they are working and to you know, have this entirely new framework.

So at the core of all that, again, is hope, because it's hope based in evidence that things can be otherwise.

Joanne

Impressive data that you've just shared with us. And I have had the privilege of speaking to some of the leaders at that school through our programs. And again, impressive people utterly committed to their school and with a strong sense of efficacy as well.

Jenny

And I think that's critically important. And I think the principal and other leaders at the school there, you know, they just have high expectations that they can make a difference. And that you know, high expectations are communicated to all staff and to all students. And I'm sure that's a really big part of the success they’ve achieved.

Joanne

Let's talk about hopeful leadership in practice. As Paulo Freire writes, without hope, there is no way we can even start to think about education. So if hope is a precondition of education, in what way does it call us to action for equity?

Jenny

Yeah. I mean, it's a really important question. I think that hope as a precondition of education. You know, when we teach, we are changing. We're changing students. We're changing their minds, their hearts, you know, their belief systems. And so the idea that hope is needed, to even act as a teacher, I think is absolutely true.

And then I think when it comes to equity, you know, hope really does mean that we have to believe that we can do better as a system for students who traditionally haven't done well in school and, you know, since at least the 1970s, if not prior, we have tried to do something about equity in Australia.

You know, we've had the disadvantaged schools program back in the whenever it was the 80s and 90s and a whole lot of other initiatives since that are trying to get better outcomes for Indigenous students, for students in rural communities, for students from disadvantaged communities. And yet we still haven't really arrived at a place where we're producing the kinds of results that a society like ours ought to be able to produce.

And so I think it really does, hope grounds us in this call to action for greater equity, because as teachers, you know, we have to believe that we can make a difference for all students and that, you know, one's postcode, I guess, or one's location, ought not to make a difference in terms of educational outcomes. I think that’s a really important insight.

Joanne

And of course, you know the School Leadership Institute’s leadership mindsets quite well now. Do you see a connection between hope and the enactment of the mindsets?

Jenny

Absolutely. I think being courageous, being curious, being able to think laterally about, you know, how we might do things or to be bold about trying something that, you know, perhaps is less popular, but seems powerful or whatever. I think that those mindsets are absolutely crucial in, I guess, connecting the mindset with hope.

I mean, hope might have been, hopefulness might have been another mindset that was articulated there. But, yeah, I think courageous and curious are almost preconditions of hope, really.

Joanne

With students at the heart of all that we do.

Jenny

Oh, absolutely.

Joanne

What do you think school leaders can do to build a stronger sense of hope for themselves and their teams?

Jenny

You know, again, I think that it really is about identifying what I call paths of action that leaders and teachers can take. So identifying specific approaches or initiatives to take and then trying them out, collecting the evidence. And really I think inspiring hope through that kind of genuine hope, which is the belief that things can be otherwise and, and a belief that they will be otherwise because of the things that we are doing.

So I really think that it depends a lot on the leader helping colleagues to see that we are making a difference. And I think in, in that context, small celebrations become really important as well. You know, sometimes we have things like that Cessnock High School story that, you know, everyone can see the difference that it's made.

But when we make a difference for one child or one teacher, we're also really helping to build a sense of hope. And I think those things need to be called out and celebrated as well.

Joanne

Often. So, in your William Walker Oration, you conclude by saying that you believe now it's not enough to just dwell in possibility that if we're to get there, we need to act deliberately and purposefully. In the Department of Education, we have equity as a centre of our public education plan. What role hope in enabling that to be realised?

Jenny

I think hope plays a really critical role when we're talking about trying to create more inclusive and equitable kind of school communities. You know, the public education plan, I think it's fabulous for that centrality of equity. And as I said, you know, if we just dwell in possibility it takes us back to that kind of optimistic or even despairing kind of hope.

We dwell in possibility. I know you have it on your computer as a little prompt to self, but I suppose with, doing the lecture, I came to realise it's not enough just to dwell in possibility. You know, we have to make those plans. We have to act very deliberately and purposefully, and therefore, I think, in achieving greater equity, hope again, is absolutely critical as a foundation for how we make those choices for deliberate and purposeful action.

Joanne

Let's conclude by talking a little bit about you and your personal journey around hope. So how do you personally nurture hope in your own leadership practice?

Jenny

That's, again, a really interesting question. I think many of the things I've spoken about are how I nurture my colleagues and help them to remain hopeful. Certainly when we were doing the big Paul Ramsey Foundation funded multi-phase multi everything project, you know, some people became quite despondent at times, just about the volume of work we were doing and feeling a bit worn down by at all.

But I think that continually drawing attention to the small successes was a really important part of maintaining that hope. And I think also showing that we could do it. You know, whether it was visiting schools to collect data, on too many occasions, you know, the fact that we did it and that everyone survived and actually, you know, got some great stories and some great benefits from it was really part of sort of showing that we can do this. We have the capacity.

So I think those are two things that come to my mind in terms of, I guess, nurturing hope. I think also, maybe finally that modelling becomes really important. And I think that when you're leading, and trying to lead in a way that's inclusive of others, that modelling, that kind of pragmatic but optimistic disposition.

And then very specific, you know, generating data, that we can all engage with to discuss, you know, looking at results and celebrating those small successes. Consulting one another on pathways that we can take when things are not quite going quite right. You know, remaining consultative and engaged with others. I think that all part of nurturing hope in the team.

Joanne

Absolutely. You argue that if we are to inspire hope in our colleagues, we can't rely on the rhetoric of hope. Rather, we need to find paths of action teachers and leaders can take to create hope. And I think you've achieved that today in this podcast series.

And for that, I thank you for sharing your insights and perspectives on leading with hope for equity in education. We appreciate the valuable knowledge you've brought to our conversation today and what we can learn from the research Jenny.

For our listeners, please follow the School Leadership Institute on X. Our handle is @NSWSLI. And for New South Wales Department of Education staff, you can access our leadership resources on the department's website.

Thank you for listening and thank you, Jenny.