Introduction

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in New South Wales public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities. Here at the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute, our mission is to support all NSW public school leaders by providing world-class, evidence-informed leadership development programs and resources.

Our podcast will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. Hosted by Joanne Jarvis, the director of the School Leadership Institute, tune in and listen to our guests and colleagues share their expertise, insights and wisdom on leading with purpose and impact. Welcome to our Leadership In Focus series.

Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 13 of the Leadership Conversations podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis and I’m the director of the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute. This will be a two-part series where we will be exploring the notion of imperfect leadership. With me today is Professor Steve Munby.

Based in the UK, Steve Munby works with groups of schools around the world on leadership and system reform. He has worked in education throughout his career and served as Chief Executive of the National College for School Leadership in England, followed by 5 years as Chief Executive of Education Department Trust, an international not-for-profit education organisation working in Asia, India, Africa, the Middle East and Europe.

Steve is visiting professor at University College London Centre for Educational Leadership and honorary visiting professor at Liverpool Hope University. His book, Imperfect Leadership: a book for leaders who know they don't know at all, is a great read.

It's a real privilege to have you join me today as we discuss imperfect leadership Steve.

Steve Munby

My pleasure. It's great to have a chance to engage with you, Joanne. I've watched the School Leadership Institute develop strongly over the past few years under your leadership. I've observed the kind of impact it’s making, and it's always a real privilege to work with colleagues from the School Leadership Institute in NSW and indeed with leaders in NSW.

Joanne

Thanks so much, Steve. Let's start off with why you decided to write a book about imperfect leadership.

Steve

Yeah, it's a strange title for a book, isn't it? I called it that because it's the best term I could think of to describe my own leadership. And that's not something I'm ashamed of or embarrassed by. I'm actually proud to be an imperfect leader because I have a problem with this idea of perfect leadership.

I think if we think we have to be perfect as leaders, we'll end up making ourselves ill, either physically or mentally. We'll do our heads in. If we think we have to be perfect as leaders, we won't encourage others to step up to leadership because they have to be perfect, too, and we won't share and distribute the leadership. We'll do it all ourselves.

So I called the book Imperfect Leadership because it's about my own leadership journey. And it's not a hero leadership book at all Joanne, it's about it's about mistakes I made, it's about things I found stressful, but it's about how gradually, over time, I came to be a better leader, I improved my leadership. And, you know, it's tough being a school leader because the children, young people, the parents, the school community, all the staff are relying on you to lead them.

And it can be a huge responsibility and you can find it very, very challenging. And sometimes it can overpower you. But it will be even more daunting if you think you have to be some kind of transformational, inspirational, individualistic superhero leader that no one can really be. It will just make you feel inadequate. So having an imperfect leadership mindset, I think is a positive thing.

You understand that we all make mistakes. So although we challenge and reflect on our mistakes, we don't because ourselves up when we make mistakes. We understand that asking for help is a good thing, not a bad thing in leadership. We know we can't do it all ourselves. We need a good team around us to share that responsibility. And we understand that sometimes we will have imposter syndrome. But imposter syndrome in moderation is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Joanne

What a relief that I'm an imperfect leader. I actually feel much more relaxed just hearing you define it that way Steve.

Steve

Yeah, it's important that we all accept the fact. It’s a relief sometimes to accept the fact that you're an imperfect leader.

Joanne

I loved reading your book, and in chapter 3 you write: at the heart of authentic and imperfect leadership is moral purpose, a commitment to ensure that we improve the learning in the lives of the children and young people we serve. And then you also argue that social justice should be at the heart of our moral purpose. Could you elaborate on this concept for our listeners?

Steve

Thanks, Joanne. Well, moral purpose gives us our why as leaders. It enables us to do the hard things we don't want to do, but we know we need to do. To have that difficult conversation with that member of staff, even though we’d rather stay under the duvet that morning, we get up and we have it because we have our moral purpose, because we know is in the interests of the children and young people that we serve.

I visited a slum school in Nairobi, quite a few years ago now. And, and it was a horrendously challenging place. And there was an open sewer running through the middle of the slum area. And the children had to get to school by walking on a plank over the sewer. It smelled horrible. But when they got into school, the children were so delighted to be there. They loved being at school, were thrilled to be at school.

And I asked the school principal why he was there because it was a very challenging environment to work in. And he said, I'm there because without education these children have got no hope. That's why I'm here because they've got their parents never went to school. They've got nothing in the world. All they’ve got is education. And although people in NSW won't be working in quite as challenging environment as that I suspect, it's still the case that as leaders in NSW and as teachers in NSW, you're giving hope to children through education. And that's the moral purpose. That's what drives us. That's why we do the job.

But I think social justice is at the heart of that in terms of our moral purpose. See I like the idea of social justice more like more than I like the idea of social mobility. I like social mobility. But social mobility is about how we get young people to reach their potential. Maybe who are talented but poor to go out and do well and get a good job and that's important. But actually social justice is allowing talent to flourish even if you're talented and if you're not talented. Social justice is about whether you got pushy parents or parents who don't help at all, making sure that every child, whether they’re talented or not, whether they've got pushy parents or not, every child gets a decent education. That's the social justice bit.

Social justice is about fighting against the corrosive impact of poverty, that school principal was in Nairobi. But it's not just about economic poverty. It's about poverty of ambition. It's about poverty of experience in terms of life enhancing opportunities to experience the arts and sport and travel. And it's about all children, not just some. And that's why I worry about education systems that put all the accountability on individual schools and judge everything about the individual school performance. I get why they do that, but if you all just focus on the individual school, you won't necessarily have equity across the system. The more we judge the success of principals in terms of how their own school performance rather than all schools in the local area, the bigger the social equity challenge becomes. So social justice should be the big driver because it's about all children, whatever their needs, trying to make sure they’re met through our education system.

Joanne

It reminds me of why NSW public education is so important because in the end we’re a public education system, not a system of public schools. So that that whole concept requires us to work collaboratively as a system and that's where our power is.

Steve

Absolutely. I think that's a really important point Joanne.

Joanne

What role does moral purpose play in a leader’s impact on teacher and student learning do you think?

Steve

Well I think having a strong moral purpose doesn't necessarily make you better at improving teaching and learning in your school. I'd argue it's necessary but not sufficient. I think you still need to have a good understanding of the technical aspects of teaching and learning, to know what searching questions to ask to make sure that teaching and learning is going well in your school. So you need to show curiosity, be good at leading collective problem solving on issues of improving teaching and focus on the professional development of teachers and teaching.

But with strong moral purpose and, as I said before, commitment to social justice. I think you have also, you're looking at the quiet child, the average unnoticed child who might be underachieving, the child will never do well in NAPLAN tests, but who still should be given close attention to make progress in their learning. You'll be prepared to have that difficult conversation with that member of staff who might be showing bias, conscious or unconscious, towards some children, or may not be performing as well, or might be behaving in a way that isn't good for the culture or for the ethos of the school.

The member of staff who praises achievement but not effort, or the member of staff who labels or stereotypes children. Will be determined to ensure the voice of all young people is heard, not just the usual suspects in the school, not just the one who are articulate and confident. That identity and community are recognised and celebrated. And the curriculum has meaning and connectedness.

So having the moral purpose, along with the technical focus on teaching and learning, means we don't settle for a quiet life, even if on the surface things seem to be going quite well. We’re passionate about every child being a powerful learner, not just some.

Joanne

It's committing to action that which one holds dear. That's the power of moral purpose. On its own t's not a strategy. I think Michael Fullan said that once.

Steve

Yes. One of my great heroes, Michael Fullan.

Joanne

Another point you make in your book is where you discuss leadership mindsets that support leaders to enact their role. You highlight many mindsets, but I'm interested in courage and curiosity. Why do you think these mindsets are important?

Steve

OK, well, just a little bit about courage. I think courage is really important in leadership. In the foreword to the second book that I wrote with Mary Clare Bretherton, Andy Hargreaves wrote the foreword and he said, I've known Steve Munby for 40 years and he's always struck me as someone who is equally courageous and terrified when he's leading an organisation, and I think that's a nice balance to have, actually.

I'm happy with that. Courageous and terrified. We’re frightened, we’re worried, but we’re also courageous, prepared to do the hard things even though it's hard and even though we're scared sometimes. So yeah, I think courage is really important in leadership. But let me just focus on the second part of your question, which is about curiosity.

I think it's really important for us as leaders to have open mindedness, to be slow to condemn or dismiss groups of people who just have a different view from most about education. Be curious rather than oppositional towards those who may see things differently. And to ask, what's really going on here? Why do these colleagues have a different view and what can I learn from them?

And of course, we see the opposite on Twitter and X and social media. I see people taking camps and attacking other people and I worry about that. I think a narrow point of view is an easy trap to fall into. The famous writer Agatha Christie said the secret of solving a crime is to keep an open mind as long as possible.

The moment you make up your mind as to who committed the murder, you start to only see the evidence that fits your thinking. Or even worse, you begin to make the evidence fit your assumptions.

Joanne

It's a great analogy.

Steve

I think open mindedness is very important as a leader. I think it's, we need to have strong values and beliefs, we need to follow the evidence, of course, but we need to walk in other people's shoes, see the things from their perspective and combat our own intuitive bias. Vivian Robinson says we should be about truth seeking rather than truth claiming. And I know that Vivian's doing quite a lot of work for you.

But it requires a level of comfort with ambiguity. The ability to see things in different points of view at the same time. It may be that we don't know all the answers and we accept that. I think it's easy for us as leaders to get stuck in habits. And habits are good. Habits make the job manageable, but they can also mean that we do things the way we've always done them, and sometimes there might be a better way of doing things.

But because we've got a closed mind, we don't open ourselves up to it. That's why being curious and looking outward is so important. It requires a level of ambiguity to seek different points of view. But it's not about wishy washy thinking. It's about being open minded and curious. Not about compromise. It's about being genuinely curious and wanting to be a better leader than we were before.

Joanne

And that requires courage too, doesn't it, to go back to where you started with your answer. You know you've got to feel the fear and do it anyway, haven't you?

Steve

That's why the question you asked is so good. Because courage and curiosity go together.

Joanne

Another part of your book that I enjoyed very much was when you talked about leaders being able to enable the right balance between power and love. What do you mean by that?

Steve

I think this is a really important concept, Joanne, and I use a lot of my leadership. See, by power, I mean the drive to achieve, to get things done, to move things forward. By love, I mean the drive to unify and bring people together.

And I think we unless we have both of these things in our leadership, we won't be successful. Because power, unless we have power in our leadership, nothing's going to improve. Nothing's going to change. We're going to carry on doing the things we've always done. And and if we don't have those high expectations, if we don't have that determination, if we don't have that relentlessness and that focus on doing the right thing and absolute commitment to making it work, then we won't be effective as leaders.

So the power side of leadership is really, really important and it's hard to keep and maintain. Sometimes we start off with that kind of power drive, but gradually we just get used to it and accept the status quo. So that's so important to have the power side in leadership. But unless we have the love side in leadership, we won't take people with us. Unless we show kindness, compassion, empathy, build relationships, we might be driving things forward, but no one's following us and no one's going with us, and we won't have a sustainable approach.

So power and love in leadership is really important. And I actually use this about every few months. I used to reflect in my journal, how am I doing on the power and love balance? Have I been too much power in the past few months? Or too much love? Or what do I need to do in the coming few months given what I'm facing to get the balance right between the power side and the love side? And it's a great mechanism, I think, to reflect upon getting the balance right.

Joanne

I'd forgotten that you have talked about journalling. Is that something that you do every day, or how did that impact on the way you were able to lead and reflect on your leadership?

Steve

Joanne I'm a huge fan of keeping a journal, but I don't, it's not realistic for me to write in it every day. I write in every few months, maybe 2 or 3 months. I write about, I still do. I've been doing it for years and years and years. I write about how I'm feeling. I write about my leadership issues, my challenges.

I reflect upon how things have gone and maybe what I need to do differently in the next few months. And I found it very helpful, not just to use it for reflection time at the time, but also to look back on what I wrote a year ago or two years ago and look at how my leadership is developing, or some of the similar issues that I was, facing now, I faced a year or two ago and remind myself of how I dealt with them.

So I'm a huge fan. I remember once, writing in my journal on a Greek island, I wrote I'm really worried about going back to work after the summer holiday. I just don't think I'm up to the job. I think it's too hard. And then I look back and the year before that, on a different Greek island, I’d written the same thing.

So every year, every year I was, I was thinking, as I go back from my summer holiday, the job’s too hard, I'm not up to it. But when I got back, I was fine. But that that bit of self-doubt, I think, was a good thing not a bad thing. But the fact that was journalling it could see that I was always doing that every summer helped me to understand myself better as a leader.

Joanne

Well that’s a good place to end part one of this two-part series Steve, so thank you for your wonderful insights into imperfect leadership. For our listeners, please follow the School Leadership Institute on X. Our handle is @NSWSLI and for NSW Department of Education staff you can access our leadership resources on the department's website, including a recording of a webinar with Steve as part of our Insights Series for Principals. So thank you for listening.