Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers, for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Siobhan:

Welcome back to the very last episode of Season One and what better way than to end the season with the one, the only, Mr Murat Dizdar, who we'll introduce in a second. For now, my name is Siobhan and this is Shannon and we welcome you back to the very last episode. And I'll hand it over to Shannon to give the man who I think needs no introduction a bit of an introduction anyway, in case you don't know who he is.

Shannon:

No time to get emotional with the end of Season One. We've had a big season, and as Siobhan mentioned, we're ending it going out with a bang. We're so excited to have the Secretary of the NSW Department of Education with us here today on the couch. But not only is he now the Secretary, he's got over 25 years, is it, teaching and leading across?

Murat:

27.

Shannon:

27?

Murat:

Don't short change me.

Shannon:

I will absolutely not, 27 across various schools in NSW, all different contexts, teaching and leading, and he's here today to talk to us a little bit about his public school system experiences and, you know, the future of education. So, welcome.

Murat:

Thanks for having me, Siobhan and Shannon. I'm really excited to be able to join you both. But before I kick off, I do want to acknowledge that we're at Parramatta Public. It's a fantastic school. Gail Charlier is the principal and just a big shout-out to the Darug people because we're on their beautiful homelands here.

Shannon:

We absolutely are.

Siobhan:

Well, Murat, we like to welcome our guests to the couch with a bit of a segment called 'This or That’.

Murat:

OK.

Siobhan:

So we'll ask you a question and you tell us which one you prefer and why. So the first one is, would you prefer to go to an NRL Grand Final or a State of Origin game?

Murat:

Oh. I'd take both. It depends if the Tigers were in the Grand Final, because they were in 2005 and I was there in person.

Siobhan:

Beauty.

Murat:

I wouldn't have given up that ticket for quids. But, you know, on the bucket list is to go to a decider in Queensland for State of Origin.

Siobhan:

For me, I think nothing beats the NRL Grand Final if it's your team of choice, but I think watching that nail-biter on the couch was just absolutely incredible. But for me it's got to be, I'm going to keep with the home team spirit and go for an NRL Grand Final. What about you, Shannon? I know you're not much of an NRL fan.

Shannon:

I was about to say, tough one for me. I'm going to have to throw you a real curveball and say Swans all the way, AFL.

Siobhan:

There you go.

Murat:

They've hit a little bit of a hurdle, so hopefully they bounce back.

Siobhan:

What about this one? Parent-teacher interviews or writing a report for the student?

Murat:

This or that? Yeah, look, I'm a bit of a talker, so I prefer the interview. I think you get a lot more out of the interview and you can say a lot more and you can be, you know, less bureaucratic. In fact, one of the things that I want to do as Secretary is look at report cards. There's a lot of workload. You're both teachers. You know, the report season starts all of Week 2 in Term 2 and it continues for the entire term and then it starts again in Term 4. So, I don't know if students and parents are getting bang for their buck out of what we put in as teachers and I want to see if I can streamline and improve that process for teachers, but make it more beneficial for parents and students. So, if you ask me, I'd rather do the parent-teacher interview.

Siobhan:

Mm, it's interesting because, in fact, one of the first questions I actually ask at a parent-teacher interview is, 'What would you like to know that's not written on the report?' And that actually reveals a lot because the parent will actually say, 'Oh, I haven't had time to sit down and read and, you know, process what's written on the report.' So, it gives me a fair indication of what they know about what I've told them about their child. But, if they say, 'Oh, I'd like to,' you know, and they pinpoint a certain aspect of their child's learning or wellbeing that they wanted to discuss.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

So, it reveals a lot that question, so there's my top tip for the day. Ask that question.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah.

Murat:

I like that tip.

Shannon:

Yeah, and something like, thinking about my favourite as well, is sitting down and having a chat to parents, and at the school that I'm at, we normally do them at the end of Term 1. So, it's before that student reporting is done for your first semester, which I really appreciate, because it gives you that time to build that connection with the families as well. And the first question I ask, 'Do you have anything to ask me?' 'Is there anything you'd like to know?' Because I've got facts and figures and stats and I can tell you what sporting team they go for and what their favourite book is this week, but is there anything you need to talk to me about first and foremost? Let's get that, what's at the forefront of your mind as a parent?

Murat:

Yeah, I like those tips. And, you know, I'm not sure why, but when I go to parent-teacher night, because I'm a father of 3, my 3 are in the system, they're at great public schools, I think I make the other, you know, I make our teachers unnecessarily nervous. I shouldn't because, you know, that's not what I intend to but as a parent, I like to ask the question, 'How can I help?' 'How can I help you?' Because I believe in the partnership aspect. And I think we rely too much inside the school gates and the child, and the school gates do a tremendous job, but, you know, I encourage our parents out there listening to ask the question, 'How can I help and partner in that learning journey?'

Siobhan:

Great advice. My last 'This or That' for you is, the school athletics carnival or the school swimming carnival, which do you prefer?

Murat:

Well, I am still the Summer Hill Public egg and spoon champion.

Siobhan:

OK.

Murat:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Are you on plaque somewhere?

Murat:

Well, it should be. In fact, I've visited a number of times. If it's not, I'll make sure the plaque does recognise that feat. It was world record time and the egg was still

Shannon:

Olympic qualifier no doubt.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Murat:

Intact. You know, I'm proud that my kids got to learn to swim. It's so important. You know, but I wasn't gifted in the swimming domain. In fact, our carnivals were at Ashfield Swimming Pool and they used to be on stinking hot days. And, you know, what I like about our carnivals now, it involves everyone and gets everyone to participate. So, I'd enter events, and on the block, I'd look like a million dollars and I'd go 10 metres and teachers would have to dive in to rescue me but I'd do that so I could stay cool.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Murat:

Yeah. So, athletics carnival without a doubt. And, you know, the 100 metre, there's something about, you know, I just watched the Netflix series on the

Siobhan:

Yes.

Murat:

100-metre, 200-metre sprinters. Wow, you know, they are so highly strung, so finely tuned. Every little movement counts. So, yeah. You know, I'd be in the 100 metre but nowhere near Olympic level.

Siobhan:

Yeah, beautiful. We might have to go out into the playground after this and have a bit of a quick 100-metre race

Murat:

Take both of you on?

Siobhan:

Between the 3 of us.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah.

Murat:

Well, let's do the egg and spoon first.

Siobhan:

OK, as a bit of a warm-up.

Murat:

Where I dominate, and then we'll do the 100.

Siobhan:

Yeah, do you know what? We'll take a rain check because I might need to do a bit of stretching. I don't need a hammy pull.

Shannon:

Followed by the three-legged race.

Siobhan:

There's certainly a risk assessment to fill out for that one for sure.

Shannon:

Absolutely. Well, you know, thinking back, the athletics carnival is where I really thrived as a teacher and I looked around at my opponents, my colleagues, they weren't colleagues on that day, were they? It's the one day of the year. All those relationships went out the window. I was there to win, and that's all I was there for.

Murat:

Yeah.

Shannon:

No, it's good fun. And when you see the kids, students, you know, smiling and cheering for their teacher at the side of the racetrack,

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Those are the connections.

Siobhan:

I know. You feel like, as a teacher at the athletics carnival, you have like a certain role. Everybody has that duty. For me, I love being in charge of the rake on the long jump pit.

Shannon:

Controversial because I did not enjoy my time with the rake.

Siobhan:

Or, you know, the javelin picker-upperer, the shot put, you know, collector, the re-setter of the high jump bar. All very important jobs.

Shannon:

Absolutely. The announcer. I think that was who I aligned with.

Murat:

You know what I love about it though? You know, they're such meaningful days. Kids have great memories. And, you know, sometimes our kids don't see their teachers as real human beings and real people. And that connection, that relationship which you both have got in bucket loads in the schools you've been in, is so telling and so important. And what I'm also, you know, a big fan of in public ed, we've got to have the opportunities for all students in all domains. You know, if you want to believe the press, it'll only be literacy and numeracy, but we know in education that every bit counts. And we've got kids that dominate at athletics, they've got to have their opportunities there. You know, I'm proud of the school sports unit because they've really moved into the space for opportunities for our students with disabilities and look how this nation does in the Paralympics, et cetera. So, yeah. You know, a lot of fun, a bit of a breather for staff, but great for kids to see staff in another context.

Siobhan:

Yeah, agreed.

Shannon:

Absolutely. Well, that concludes our 'This or That' for the start of the episode. Now, Murat, you are the Secretary of the NSW Department of Education at the moment, but I'd like to rewind. Take us back to that Year 12 post-school pathway. What did that look like for you?

Murat:

Yeah, it's a top question because from Year 9, I knew that I wanted to be a teacher. I had top teachers in Warren Griffiths, in Hart Sturm, in Marie Johanson, in Robert Baker. They were all social science teachers and I loved geography and commerce, you know, and then I picked all their subjects, business studies and economics and geography for the HSC. And I would be very studious, but I'd be watching them because I was so passionate. They made their subject feel like it was the only one on the planet that you should ever care about. And so, I wondered if I could be like them. I'd be deeply entrenched in lessons, but I would also be watching them and saying, 'Could I pull that off too?' And so, the mistake I made is when I was Dux, you know, what do you do with an ATAR of 99.95? You either, from an ethnic household, go into medicine or law. And so, I went into law and I studied law for 2 years with a Distinction average and working for a lawyer before I chucked it all in and went to where I wanted to go. So, why do I call it the greatest mistake and why do I talk about it with young people? I want my own children who are in public schools, I want 800,000, to pursue what they're passionate about because from that day that I chucked it in and went into teaching, I've never looked back. I've never viewed a day, you know, as work in its purest sense because I get a lot of joy and a lot of satisfaction by being in the education sector. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm proud that I bit it off. I should have been brave enough earlier to say that and I don't want any child who wants to be a teacher to hesitate because of the lived experience I've got.

Shannon:

Mm. And thinking back to beginning teacher, early career teacher Mr Dizdar, what was it like your first appointment walking in the doors of Ashcroft High School?

Murat:

I really excelled at prac and I remember going to prac at Marrickville High School for 3 weeks with 4 of us from Sydney Uni, from my same class. And I had a car at that stage, a busted-up Gemini, red Gemini. You know, you had to stop at regular intervals and put more water into the cooler so the car wouldn't blow up. And through uni, I know you're looking at me, you're not going to believe this, but I was a qualified fitness instructor.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Murat:

So, I used to stand in front of 50, 40 people, adults, and instruct, you know, boxercise, studio cycle, aqua aerobics. I used to do the lot. And what that gave me is the capacity to engage people, to communicate well. You know, all the non-verbal cues alongside verbal cues. So, I think I was ready to hit the ground running by way of communication, by way of being able to hold command, by way of being able to engage a group. Of course I needed the content, I needed the art and the craft of teaching. And so, I loved the classroom. I still think, I still think it is the profession without doubt where you've got to perform the most. You've got to stand up as a secondary teacher, you know this, and perform 5, 6 times a day. There's no other profession that asks you to do it. You can't just walk in, fake it, throw out textbooks, off you go. You might get away with one or 2 lessons like that. So, you've got to get up and perform. And I love performing and I love getting, you know, movement on a group, which are all things that I saw through the fitness instructing. Little would I have known that that background would help me in the classroom.

Siobhan:

Yeah, no doubt. I see it, thinking back to my own lessons, you know, like I could go into a room and know, OK, my 30 Year 9 boys might not be so interested in Romeo and Juliet today, but it is my mission, by the end, they're walking out saying, 'Thanks, Miss. That was an amazing lesson. Like, I learned so much and I can see the connections in Romeo and Juliet and Shakespeare's world to my own world today.'

Shannon:

And they feed off that passion as well. Like, if you're there giving it 110%, you're up there, I'm living and breathing Shakespeare right now. I could be mistaken for Shakespeare right now. And they're picking up what I'm putting down.

Siobhan:

And hey, they can be a tough audience, right?

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Siobhan:

So, it's about finding new and innovative ways to get their attention because you can't just, you know, you might be an expert in your field and in that content, but if they don't care from the get go, you need to get them to that point where they're ready to eat it out of the palm of your hand, that lesson. So, I can see that.

Murat:

You both describe it so well and they were the teachers that I had. You know, they weren't teaching concepts because they were there and they had a student body that would've lapped it up. It's the way they went about that craft and the passion just exuded. So, you know, I wanted to be one of them. I wanted to be one of them. I tried to be one of them. I think I had moments where I pulled it off and then I had moments that were disastrous but that's part of the teaching cycle to make sure you bounce back and learn. And I love what you said about the young learners. You know, when I became principal, I didn't need to go and observe anyone's lesson because the kids were the best markers of who were the dedicated, committed teachers. They could tell me. They could tell me. And often the accuracy is so strong because while they can't describe the technical elements of good teaching, they know that a good teacher is there, committed, dedicated, organised, you know, picks them up from where they're at and moves them forward, yeah.

Siobhan:

And thinking back to Ashcroft, because no doubt that would've set you up really well in your career, but what was that first week like for you? I'm thinking, you know, for beginning teachers listening now or people who are about to embark on their first perhaps temporary contract or permanent engagement, what was that first week like for you stepping into, you know, a school for the first time as the teacher?

Murat:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

How did you feel?

Murat:

Well, I was tremendously excited, I'll tell you why. Remember I chucked in law and went into teaching. So, you know, for a while there, my parents were questioning that I'd given away rivers of gold and prosperity and here I am working at Rebel Sport Mid City Centre. It's Saturday before Monday kickoff for school and back then, I could sell you anything at Rebel. I was in the exercise equipment section so, you'd come in looking for shoes and I'd sell you a treadmill. You know, I was really good at my craft. So, it's Saturday, and I was a targeted grad from the interviews and I'm waiting for a job and I ticked anywhere in NSW, being scared of my parents that I should be employed, you know? And Monday, I started fretting because it was Saturday, you know, Monday kickoff. And I got a phone call, said, 'Murat, can you take the call on line 2,' you know? And it was a staffing officer. And she said, 'We've got a job for you. It's at Ashcroft High School.' I said, 'I'll take it, I'll take it.' And they said, 'Are you sure? You can tell us in 24 hours.' I said, 'No, no. Is it in NSW? Yep, I'm taking it.' So, you know, remember I was a geography teacher? Social sciences, geography, economics, legal studies. That night, I did drive in the busted-up Gemini, I live in Glebe, to Ashcroft, and I couldn't find the school. No Navman back then, only had the street directory. So, not a good start for a geography teacher but I did find my way on Monday during daylight. And I landed at a fantastic, fantastic school. I landed in a faculty that had Teresa Drapalski as the head teacher. She was a tough taskmaster, but she taught me the art and craft of putting together scope and sequences, meaningful lessons, drilled onto assessment items, and grew me enormously. I could not have landed anywhere better, amazing teachers. You know, on the Monday when I walked in, there was 4 of us that started that day, and so what happens when you're a day one teacher and a permanent appointment? You're in the principal's office and you meet the principal, John Norris. John Norris was a top principal. And he said to us, 'What do you like outside of education?' And he went one-by-one. It kind of came to me, and those that know me a little bit, I said, 'I like sport.' And he said, 'What sport do you like?' And I said, 'I really like rugby league.'

Shannon:

Looking at the new coach, is what he's thinking.

Siobhan:

I know exactly where this is going.

Siobhan:

Yeah, he said, 'Brilliant. I've got this fresh male in my staffroom.' He probably said, 'When can you start? When can you grab the bus and get the boys out?

Shannon:

‘Training’s at 10.’

Murat:

I wish I had you interviewing me before that day. He was exactly on the same page as you.

Siobhan:

Yep.

Murat:

He said, 'Fantastic. You're going to coach the opens rugby league team because our coach has just left to another school.' And I said, what do you say, first day, first hour? I said, 'Of course I am. Of course I will.'

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Murat:

No coaching qualifications, not a day of teaching under the belt, and I coached the opens rugby league team. And he taught me the importance, what that lesson showed me was how to be a school teacher, not a classroom teacher, because that's pivotal, but how do you be a school teacher and get broader connection. Because the toughest kids were in the rugby league team and they gave me the easiest time inside the classroom because I was their rugby league coach.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Well, you know, we've all had wonderful lessons and, you know, things can go to plan, but things sometimes they don't go to plan and that's a reality. Is there a moment that sticks with you that you had to really pivot within your teaching career or something that stands out to you that, you know, built who you are as an educator today?

Murat:

Yeah, no, it's a top question. This one still hurts me. This one really hurts me. There was a young girl in Year 9 in my geography class. I thought she was out to destroy my career, you know, because I could not get her to engage at all. She'd run my lesson into the ground within a matter of minutes. And I became very good at the school's discipline system. So, I became an expert at saying, 'That's warning one, and that's warning 2,' and, you know, 'You're on detention,' and, 'You're seeing the head teacher.' And she could do all of that with me as a rookie in 8 seconds. So, you know, every time I'd get her outside the classroom, I'd think to myself, 'Oh, relief.' You know? What I did not know until the head of learning support came and met with me, she said, 'That young girl that you keep kicking out, that you think is giving you a hard time, has got vision needs. Needs everything blown up in 18 font.' And I never knew this child's needs. I had neglected even trying to find out. I just thought she was, you know, at it to ruin my career. It taught me a big lesson because I let her down and once I knew that, and in Year 9 in a social circle, that's difficult, difficult in front of your peers to be able to do that. It taught me the importance of adjustment. Do I know all my kids really well? When they're not engaging, do I know what's behind that? And it taught me a sharp lesson in my first year that you can get everyone on board. Some will need adjustment. My job is to learn about that and try and meet that adjustment. So, she taught me a really important lesson, but I still feel guilty to this day and people have heard me say this because I let her down for about 6 months before I worked that out, sat her down. And one of my biggest things that I've learned in my career is to apologise when you get it wrong. So, I did take delight in apologising to her with her mother, you know, at the half yearly report time in parent-teacher night of all of things, yeah. That one has stuck with me forever, that, you know, I should have been better prepared, better trained to meet that need.

Shannon:

Mm, but it's that power of reflection as well, right? And that's, you know, the biggest pedagogical knowledge that you'll have is sitting back and reflecting and improving incrementally as a teacher. That's all we can do, and we all want the best for our students.

Murat:

Yeah, and I wish the broader society would understand that. You know how I said, you know, teaching is a craft where you stand up and perform 5 or 6 times a day? You know, I've got QC mates of mine from when I was at law school and I absolutely stick it to them because they prepare for a case for months. They've got junior lawyers preparing and then they go up and perform, really, they go up and perform in front of a, you know, jury or the judge for a 4, 5-day case and then there's a break before the next big one. Not only the performance side, but you’ve got 25, 30 different individuals. And we demand that the teacher know where they're at on their learning trajectory, where they're at on their social trajectory, what needs they may have, and to meet all of those needs. So, you know, people talk about differentiated learning. That is awfully difficult to pull off. It's almost like having 25, 30 lessons running at once because not everyone is at a uniform level. That's why I take my hat off to teachers. You know, like you, I've been there and tried to pull off what that looks like. And people do a remarkable job in meeting student need, meeting where each child is at and trying to move them forward. I wish broader society would have a better respect for that.

Siobhan:

I do agree. Is there something you would say to a student who's, or, you know, a career changer or somebody who's, you know, in their current career or about to choose a career who's sitting on the edge of the fence about teaching? What would you say to them to sort of give them that final push?

Murat:

Yeah, take it. I mean, you know, I don't want to be in any other sector. This is the only sector I've really known, but I've taken great energy out of. In fact, I've met a lot of mid-career changers, re-trainees, who make outstanding teachers because of their life experiences that they can bring to the fore. Imagine, you know, I taught commerce and economics and business studies, but imagine someone who came from industry in those areas. You know, I think it's a good time to join. I think it's a good time to join the profession when remuneration is better, when we're looking at tackling teacher workload and restoring the primacy of the classroom. And I've got so many fond memories. I mean, this might shock you, but when my time comes to a close as Secretary, I want to go full-circle and I wonder if I could go back and casual teach in some locations and remember the joy of what I signed up for as well, originally.

Shannon:

I think you touched on it there, you know, some of the massive key achievements during your time as Secretary. What ongoing impacts are you most proud of in your role now?

Murat:

Yeah, I'm really proud that, you know, I'm able to use to my advantage, to the organisation's advantage, the experiences that I've had. You know, there's no other way to understand those experiences. I'm proud that I've been able to be all positions inside the school gates from a teacher, you know, I wrestled and learnt what a year adviser does. You know, I was Year 9 year adviser at Ashcroft High School. I was a head teacher of a social science faculty, deputy principal, principal, those experiences are still entrenched with me. I still know what a 42-period timetable on a fortnightly basis looks like and I want to keep myself sharp on that. So, I try and leverage those experiences. I try and put a lens over the work we're doing in the centre to support schools to make sure that it's going to be useful. The things I put out as Secretary, I want our people to feel like it's going to help, it's going to be useful. It's not another layer, it's not another reform, it's not another thing to grapple with, because the teacher's plate is full and I want the additions that I can make to be things that can help.

Siobhan:

So, how do you see the department evolving in that way? You know, under your guidance, what kind of initiatives are you hoping to work on?

Murat:

So, one of the big things I drove when I came in is this School Experience Program. I wanted everyone in our organisation, no matter what their role is, to understand the operating rhythm of schools. So, I said very early on that anyone that starts new with us, I'll put them on the payroll, but they can't start until they do 2 weeks in a school. I'm really proud that we've had 250 people now go through that program. I've met many of them. Many of them have written to me. I'm proud that we delivered the plan for public ed. I'll tell you why I'm proud of that. We've always had strategy documents, and when I came in, we had one almost ready to go and I canned it because I knew that they don't resonate inside the school gates. It sounds too bureaucratic, too corporate. So, I'm proud of the plan for public ed. When I move around schools, I see engagement with that. I'm proud about the salaries that we delivered but I'm not naive enough to know that just being at the top of the public school scale fixes what attraction and retention looks like. I said earlier that I want to tackle workload and make sure our teachers, good teachers like you, can just concentrate on the classroom. I'm proud that the things in the pipeline that aren't revealed yet are all going to be meaningful things to help teachers. And I'm proud that the organisation, it's a very large organisation, is becoming a lot more teacher and school-centric. You know, that is where it's easy to use the phrase ‘the magic happens’ because it's not magic. It takes deep commitment to pull off good work and I want this organisation to sit up tighter to support that.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as public educators, we sit here and the values are so clear and, you know, deeply ingrained within us, like belonging, equity, celebrating diversity, all such fundamental parts of public education and all, you know, key components of Our Plan for Public Education. Could you talk to us a little bit about the key components, particularly for our schools, of Our Plan for Public Education?

Murat:

Yeah, I'm really glad that you called out equity. You know, my own background is I grew up in a housing commission Glebe. My parents are still in that house at Mitchell Street, Glebe. My story is one of a strong, supportive family, but one that came from enormous financial disadvantage. So, in my DNA is, you know, to try and smash through disadvantage. You know, I grew up in what that structure looks like. And so, I talk about this concept that you and I, that the 95,000 teachers, 2,200 principals, our job is to make sure every one of our children have a rich education passport. You know, it's a passport that money cannot buy. It's a passport that we stamp experiences and achievements. And the richer that passport, the more stamps, the more achievements, the greater the prosperity for that individual. That's the magic of what we pull off in 13 years of schooling. And what I like about that passport is, at the end of it, at the end of those 13 years, that passport is not measured on your postcode. It's not measured on your income level. It's measured on what those teachers have been able to pull off with you. And I've seen that pulled off in the system to great effect in so many locations. So, you know, it knows no boundary. Our job is to cut through that equity barrier, to cut through that excuse level that could exist and to create achievement. So, I'm very proud of that equity call out, personally because, like I said, it's part of my DNA. I also worked in a lot of disadvantaged contexts, and I know that disadvantage need not be poor outcome. I saw some phenomenal outcome. So, that's the first big call out. The second, and we've got 6 pillars there, I'm really proud of the status and standing of the profession. You know, I've got this bad habit of not being re-invited to barbecues. What happens is, I'm married to a lawyer. We go to a barbecue, it's often her circle of friends and they say to me, 'What do you do, Murat?' And I say, 'I'm a teacher,' because that's how I still see myself and describe myself.

Shannon:

Yes, absolutely.

Murat:

And they say, 'Where do you teach?' And I say, 'Oh, lots of places.' And they say, 'Oh, you're a casual teacher.' And then my wife dives in and goes, 'Oh, he's the Secretary of the department.'

Siobhan:

Yeah, kind of in charge of 2,200 schools or so.

Murat:

When they hear that, they all want to pick your brains about education. The debate goes into private and, you know, public, it goes into funding. I get passionate and carried away, and before we know it, we're back in the car, my wife's saying, 'I'm not taking you again, you can't control yourself, you got overexcited, you banged on about it, you drill public ed.' So, I'm very, very fiercely protective of the profession and I want the profession to have high standing.

Shannon:

I really resonate with that equity piece and pathways. I moved to Australia, went into Year 10 here, with my family, and it was a whole new country, it was a new schooling system. I was proudly in a public system. in a public school on beautiful Darug land. And it was those teachers that took the time with me, specifically my career guidance counsellor, to get to know me and what I was interested in and showcase those pathways, because they were so vastly different post-school to where I had come from and where I had moved from. So, without having teachers in my corner to explain not only the system to me, not only the system to my parents, you know, I was so fortunate to have, you know, that equity. Every opportunity was given to me because, you know, I was ready and I was in a public school and I was awarded that privilege. So, I just feel so fortunate now to work in public schools and bring forward that to my future students, because you're right, there should be no barriers.

Murat:

I like what you described about teachers in your corner. I use that a lot. You know, you only need one teacher in your corner. One teacher. We're a big school here. You know, if you've got one teacher in your corner, that kid, that student of ours feels a deeper sense of connection and feels a deeper sense of being embraced in that school context. Imagine you've got multiple, multiple people in your corner inside the school gates. So, I want all our children to have one person in their corner, inside those school gates, but I know the impact of the multiplicity of that.

Siobhan:

It's actually why I became a teacher, because in Year 11 and 12, I felt that really deep sense of connection to my teachers and I chose teaching because I wanted to be that for somebody even earlier on in their schooling journey. I thought to myself, you know, I could be there for my Year 7 self who perhaps wasn't intrinsically motivated to do their best and was cruising by because, you know, school was fun. It was a fun, safe place to be.

Shannon:

Yeah, got to see my friends.

Siobhan:

And it was easy at that point in time.

Shannon:

Got to do a bit of learning.

Siobhan:

Yeah, and I feel like, you know, if someone had said to me a bit earlier on, like, 'Hey, kid, you actually, you know, got a bit of brains up there, let's start using them and see what your true potential is,' yeah, who knows where I would be, but I felt that in my senior years of schooling and I wanted to pay that back in dividends to my students now, which I feel that I certainly have done, which is exciting.

Murat:

And I want more of us, there's 95,000 of us in the public education system as teachers, I want more of us to encourage young people into teaching. You know, do we have tough days? Plenty of them. But there's so many moments that you and I enjoy inside the classroom. It keeps bringing us back and I want more of us to encourage. You know, we've now got a lot of schools with teacher clubs. You've heard of these. Started at Macquarie Fields High School with Jan Dolstra.

Siobhan:

Jan Dolstra.

Murat:

How fantastic. Imagine we were there in our time and they had a teacher's club where we had a teacher or teachers running for those interested in developing the curiosity and interest in teaching. Even if those people don't go into teaching, they're going to be much better communicators. They're going to have a much better presence and standing.

Shannon:

Well, it gives them an understanding, doesn't it? When they are in the hot seat per se and they're up there and they have to, you know, prepare themselves and know the content and how to deliver it when they are doing it as a student teacher, they then have a new found respect for their teacher and the work that they put in building those connections and performing.

Murat:

So, more of us should encourage. You know, if the profession is listening out there, I think we should all galvanise and get behind it, you know?

Siobhan:

Well, yeah, it's part of the pillars of the plan, you know, restoring that pride back in teachers

Murat:

Correct.

Siobhan:

Of our profession. What would you say to an early career or a beginning teacher who, you know, hasn't yet seen those rewards perhaps? What advice would you give to them?

Murat:

Yeah, stay strong here. There's going to be, you know, and don't be too harsh on yourself. No one gets it picture perfect from day dot. You know, people say, you know, the experiences will hold you in good stead. And the other part I'd say to them is know how to switch off. You know, it's such a demanding profession to be ‘on’ when you're there. Know how to switch off. Now, people that know me would say, 'Oh, he's calling the pot black. He's terrible at doing that.'

Siobhan:

‘Need to practice what you preach, Murat.’

Murat:

Because I'm always thinking about education and I can't stop. But, you know, that switch-off mechanism is really important because you've got to be back the next day and you've got to perform again and the next day after. And then, you know, have a very strong reflective mindset. How can you look at a lesson even if it didn't go well and say, 'What can I get better?' You know, the other thing, if I had my time again, it never need be a lonely profession.

Siobhan:

Yes.

Shannon:

Oh, goodness no.

Siobhan:

You have people there in every corner of the school.

Murat:

Yes.

Siobhan:

Whether it's the GA. Tell you what, make friends with the GA because as soon as I did in my new school, I had my heater every single day in winter turned on and ready for me in my classroom. ‘Thank you, Jim.’ I'd just like to say, ‘Thank you, Jim.’

Shannon:

GA. All SASS staff for that matter. They are going to know things that you will just never have thought that you'll need to understand, like the printer. Myself and the printer are not friends, and shout out to Nat, one of my beautiful SASS ladies. She kept me alive, let me tell you, with the printer.

Murat:

Well, this is why your series is so important because these are great tips that you never know when you're walking in. But don't you, I know you'd agree with this, there's so many great practitioners inside your school.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Oh, yeah.

Murat:

Just watching and learning from them is going to hold you in good stead. You don't have to go outside the school, it'll be inside the school. So, that's why I say it never need be a lonely profession. And then how do you leverage the department? You know, I spent weeks on end preparing lessons. We've now got lessons and scope and sequences.

Siobhan:

On the Universal Resources Hub.

Murat:

Yeah, that's available. So, you know, don't go reinvent the wheel either.

Shannon:

And written by real teachers. Like, what a collaborative, cohesive environment to be a part of.

Murat:

Definitely.

Shannon:

Now, looking ahead to 2025, what are you most excited for?

Murat:

I'm very hopeful of a new funding agreement. You know, all of us are listening in the press around the divergence in funding. You know, by next year, without a funding agreement, we're at 95% of funding and we need to be at 100%. Our counterparts are beyond that. So, I'm looking forward to supporting the Deputy Premier of government to deliver that funding agreement. I'm looking forward to starting the year stronger on a staffing base. Now, we're 95,000 classrooms, 2,216 schools. We've been working really hard to break the back on a teacher shortage, which is a national and international problem. The data in front of me today says we're better than this time last year, but I know one vacancy is too many. So, I want to really bring that figure down. So, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to doing some big things on the workload front. But I wonder if we could look at student report cards like I flagged. I wonder if there's other areas that we can look at. I'm looking forward to the ground feeling like the department is a little more in their corner by way of the support structures. I spoke about the lessons and you referenced the Universal Resources Hub that we're delivering on. You know, I also know that every one of the 200 days counts in a school year, that we start really strong, energised. I know that from a student and parent angle. So, how do we keep that flow strong as well? And obviously someone in my role wants even better and stronger results for the kids that we serve, but also so it can give a bit of a fill up to the system and a bit of confidence boost that we're on the right path, doing the right things. I said to our beginning teachers, how we switch off. I want the profession to be able to switch off as well. So, we recently introduced, you know, the right

Siobhan:

To disconnect.

Murat:

To disconnect. So, that we could educate all of us around what the workload looks like. So, I ask our teachers to do that. I mean, I said I'm not the best example of that, but I do love my Wests Tigers and, you know, every weekend, I take time out to watch them. I've learnt a lot from them because they're at the bottom of the table.

Shannon:

About perseverance.

Murat:

I've learnt how to handle disappointment.

Shannon:

Is that where you got your coaching professional development from?

Murat:

Well, maybe one day I'll take over and coach them as well and see what I can do with them.

Shannon:

Tell us more about that rugby league team. How did they go in the end?

Siobhan:

Yeah, what happened with the Ashcroft boys? How'd the team go?

Murat:

Yeah, no, we held our own. In fact, you know, one of our players became a first grader for the Wests Tigers.

Shannon:

Wow.

Siobhan:

Oh, wow.

Murat:

And one of the proudest moments in my career was on his debut, he and his family asked me to present him in the dressing sheds with his first jersey.

Siobhan:

That's special.

Shannon:

Wow.

Murat:

And he did play 16 first grade games before his career was cut short. So, yeah, I say that I made him. I say that I made him.

Shannon:

It's all about that grounding, isn't it?

Murat:

It is. So, you know, whether it's the Wests Tigers or whatever it is that allows you to switch off, make sure you've got a good switch-off mechanism as well.

Siobhan:

Good advice.

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Siobhan:

And interested to hear from you, Murat, how do you want your students to remember you?

Murat:

Yeah, I think as someone who is fair, who was in their corner, and who wanted them to grow, you know? I think in my experience, kids that feel like you're in their corner, you want them to prosper, and that you're fair, generally produce good things. So, I hope I'm seen that way. And, you know, I hope I've got many more days as Secretary, and I pinch myself, with all honesty, every day. Can't wait to jump and get back to work because it's a huge privilege. It's a huge honour to be able to lead the public education system. So, you know, when my time's up with what that looks like, I hope I'm remembered as someone who was fair, as someone who was in the corner of schools, and as someone who grew and improved what they look like. I might just finish off with, you know, my appreciation. Can I just say that I see it as a father of 3, 2 in a primary school, one in a high school, the importance of the teachers at the school. I want to thank the profession for the work they do. It's phenomenal work that has not always had you on the best operating field. I recognise and respect that. We spoke about teacher salary today, we spoke about workload. I'm very confident in leading the organisation that with the plan for public ed, with the slower rate of change, with the things that we want to drive, you're going to feel us more in your corner. So, I ask you to stick solid with us because we need every one of you fantastic individuals out there making that daily difference.

Shannon:

This is the last time for Season 1 we're going to be saying goodbye to all of our listeners. It's been a phenomenal season, and as we said, we went out with a bang today here joined by Murat Dizdar, the Secretary for the NSW Department of Education. We're very thankful and privileged to have had you on the couch to join us. So, thank you very much.

Murat:

Can I thank you both? I'm a huge fan of the work that you've produced. It's so fantastic for the profession. I feel delighted that I've made it to Season 1. I want to see Season 2.

Shannon:

You heard it here first. Next time you'll see us back on this couch, it'll be Season 2.

Siobhan:

We'll hold you to that. We can do a report card check-in at the end of Season 2.

Murat:

Awesome. Sounds good. Bring me back.

Siobhan:

And let's hope Tigers are up the ladder a bit higher next year.

Murat:

Exactly.

Shannon:

Stranger things have happened.

Siobhan:

Only time will tell.

Murat:

Have faith. Have faith.

Shannon:

No, thank you once and all to all of our listeners. You know, whether you're thinking about becoming a teacher, you are a teacher, you're a beginning teacher, we're all in this together. Share this episode with a friend, someone you think that will get something, you know, out of it. And until next time, we'll see you.

Siobhan:

Take care. Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe, to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team, from the NSW Department of Education.