Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

Myself and Siobhan are back as your hosts on the couch and we are joined by Alice today. So welcome, Alice.

Alice:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Shannon:

Lovely to have you here. So Alice is currently a relieving principal on the traditional lands of the Wiradjuri people. She is an experienced and innovative teacher and leader who is about to go into her 15th year in education.

Alice:

Yeah, I feel really old.

Shannon:

We like the term experienced today.

Siobhan:

Wonderful achievement.

Shannon:

She's joining us here today to discuss inquiry-based learning and the importance of developing critical and creative thinking in your students, along with some of her go-to resources. So, really excited to unpack this. It's a topic that's very close to my own pedagogy so, let's get into it. Siobhan.

Siobhan:

Before we ask you some of the nitty gritty questions, we like to start off with a bit of a segment called 'This or That' with our guests. So I'll give you a couple of options and you tell me which one you prefer.

Alice:

Yep.

Siobhan:

So first one, well, could be controversial, but Microsoft or Apple?

Alice:

Oh, Microsoft.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Alice:

I'm not an Apple person.

Siobhan:

Okay. Yeah.

Alice:

I don't have anything Apple.

Shannon:

We get a real mix actually on the show.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

I like definitely Apple in my personal life. Like, you know, I'm all wired up. Got that Apple Watch connecting to the laptop, I've got a bit of the iPad action, but then like professionally, Microsoft. Absolutely. Microsoft 365 girl, all the way. Yeah.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Same. Personal, Apple. Professional, Microsoft. Definitely.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

What about this one? And I'm not too accustomed to this. So, you guys will have more of an opinion, but plugged or unplugged coding?

Alice:

With primary kids, I reckon unplugged. It's much cooler.

Siobhan:

Okay.

Shannon:

Yeah. Do you have like a go-to unplugged activity?

Alice:

Kind of anything that connects to, you know, like your Cartesian plane type stuff with your older kids.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

Like it really helps to cement and solidify that, you know, the understanding around that.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. Cartesian plane was always one of my favourite things to teach.

Alice:

Me too.

Shannon:

I was like, 'Let's get outside.' Yeah. 'Bring the chalk. Bring the chalk, children. We're going outside to the basketball court.' And my principal would always be like, 'Shannon, you've been out on the basketball court, haven't you?' I was like, 'Can you tell we were learning about Cartesian planes?'

Alice:

I reckon it's one of those things that it's not until you teach it that you kind of go, 'I totally really understand it now.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

Like, I get it.

Shannon:

Yeah, and you know, I got better at playing Battleship after Cartesian planes. If my childhood self could see me now, how far I've come.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Note to self, don't verse either of you in a game of Battleship.

Shannon:

Let's go. Duel after this.

Siobhan:

Pick a competitor who's not so well-versed with the Cartesian plane.

Shannon:

Yeah. Yeah, you'll win every time.

Alice:

That's the question you need to ask before you play Battleship.

Shannon:

That's right. Yeah.

Alice:

‘How good are you with a Cartesian plane?’

Siobhan:

Yeah. Another question that we've been asking our guests is what are you either reading, watching, or listening to at the moment?

Alice:

At the moment it's lots of rom-com, non-school related stuff.

Shannon:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alice:

Books, in particular. I just finished the Bridgerton series.

Shannon:

Oh.

Alice:

After holding off for so long. My friend was like.

Siobhan:

The book series?

Alice:

No, no. The Netflix series.

Siobhan:

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Alice:

I held off until my friend was like, 'No, you need to watch it.' I was like, 'Okay,' and then I was like, 'Oh, my God. What was I waiting for?' But I've been very keen to get my hands on The Art of Skimming Stones.

Shannon:

Oh, okay.

Alice:

A new book that's just been published by Amba Press. So very, very keen to get my hands on that.

Shannon:

Yeah, nice. Take us back, Alice. You know, we love to hear about people's journeys on this podcast and their experiences, but bring us back to you as a beginning teacher. How did you go from beginning teacher, teaching in the Riverina area, to now relieving principal?

Alice:

So, I started teaching in the Riverina area and I was there as a new graduate teacher for 2 years. We moved back to the Central Coast to be closer to family, to, you know, get married and start our family. And taught in a different system for about 8 years. Working as a teacher and a leader in that system. And then the opportunity for an assistant principal job came up back at the same school that I worked at in the Riverina.

Siobhan:

Full-circle.

Alice:

Full-circle. Yep. And so jumped at that, applied for that and was successful, and have been there since 2020. So, moved there at the, you know, height of COVID, and beginning of a lockdown, which was an interesting space to walk into as an, you know, assistant principal, and a new leader in the school, not knowing, you know, the kids, then working from home. It was a very quick way to find your feet, and you know, build those relationships on the other side of a screen with the kids, but thankfully, you know, a lot of the staff were still the same as when I was there as a new graduate teacher. So, it made the transition, you know, a little bit easier, and.

Shannon:

You returned all grown up.

Alice:

Yep, I did. And now I'm the relieving principal.

Shannon:

Wow.

Alice:

Which is very exciting.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

And if you think to your early years as a graduate teacher in the Riverina area, what sort of key experiences or moments shaped you in those early years of your career?

Alice:

I think having the courage to move halfway across the country. So, I grew up on the Central Coast.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

A guest that you've had previously, Aaron Johnston.

Shannon:

Mm.

Alice:

I actually went to uni with Aaron.

Shannon:

Oh, wow.

Alice:

And, you know, did my initial, like casual teaching and stuff around with him. And, looking for jobs, I was like, 'You know what? I'm just going to apply anywhere and everywhere. Just, you know, whatever comes my way will be what it is.' And got a job where I currently am now, which is five-and-a-half hours away from all of our family and,

Shannon:

Wow.

Alice:

I was like, you know, 'I'm just going to bite the bullet, do it.' And it was the best thing that I ever did. Learnt so much as a teacher, but just as a person, you know, having to step away from that safety net that you have, and that network, you know, build new networks, you know, new friends. And teaching in a metropolitan area is very different to teaching regionally and rurally and so, you know, if you have the opportunity as a new graduate teacher or someone who's in education to go beyond, you know, the Sydney metropolitan area, even Newcastle, you know, further afield, then I highly recommend it. You know, you learn so much as a teacher and you build, I think, stronger skills because of it.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really wonderful advice and thinking about like your journey in particular, you've tried a lot of different things in the education space. You've also tried different systems, as you mentioned.

Alice:

Yep.

Shannon:

You've gone for various leadership roles, you know, now in your relieving principal role. What motivated you to trial these or go for these roles?

Alice:

I think initially I had a principal who kind of tapped me on the shoulder and went, 'You're ready for this.' You know?

Siobhan:

Mm.

Alice:

'You are capable of, you know, taking on more and doing more,' and really nurtured something that he saw in me. And so, from there it was, I had really kind of grown into, 'Okay, well I'll give that a try.' And then, and you know, another door opened and a new opportunity presented itself. It's like, 'Oh, I'll give that a go.' And to the position that I find myself in now. Yeah.

Siobhan:

Which is super exciting. And in that time, like obviously your responsibilities change from, you know, classroom teacher to then moving into leadership. What sort of initiatives or things did you introduce in your time in those executive roles?

Alice:

So, it started out in kind of as a, you know, like a sports coordinator. That's where things kind of started, leading whole school sport and that led to leading, you know, district level sport and things like that. And then I took on more of an ICT kind of role doing a lot of work in that space and then stepped into the curriculum space, and then stepping into an assistant principal role, looking at leading, thinking across the school, leading inquiry, stepping into that space and driving the school. It was when I made the move back to the school that I'm at, it was right at the beginning of the very first lockdown that we had. So, it was a really awesome time to, you know, pack up, and move halfway across

Shannon:

Yeah, wow.

Alice:

The state again.

Shannon:

You're not shy to a challenge, are you?

Alice:

I do love a challenge.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

And I think that's what motivates me to, you know, take on different leadership roles and step into different spaces is because I do love a challenge. And, I like to be pushed, and put outside my comfort zone.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

So that I can see what I'm capable of.

Shannon:

So, I've got a bit of a confession to make because I'm a big fan of Alice's work, longtime user of your resources in my own classrooms, which is pretty cool. You were sort of, I stumbled upon Thinking Pathways. Oh, look, I'm an avid Googler always looking for fresh ideas and things like that. I feel like most teachers are, but your space and your work on thinking routines, sort of, I don't know, like challenged me to look at my pedagogy in a different light, I suppose.

Alice:

Yep.

Shannon:

One of the first thinking routines that I introduced to my class, and we might go back, and sort of delve a little bit more into what thinking routines are in a moment, but it was all around the 'See, Think, Wonder’.

Alice:

Yep.

Shannon:

And I think once I started using sort of, thinking outside of the box, and really bringing to life that inquiry thinking in my classroom, just saw such a difference in my learners. And I had a lot of students that I had that were identified as, you know, high potential gifted students, and sometimes they, like, it's just amazing. They see the learning in a different manner and I think it was a huge learning journey for me about lifting that ceiling for them, and providing those opportunities. And I think the thinking routines are a wonderful way to do that for all learners, not just your high potential students. But let's rewind for all of our listeners, and tell us a little bit about your journey with inquiry learning.

Alice:

Yep. So it kind of all started around about 2015. I connected with Trevor MacKenzie and also with Ron Richard. I attended some professional learning with both of those and it was kind of the moment that really changed the way that I taught. And it kind of, like you said, opened up my world to different ways of doing things, and really looking at, not just delivering content, but actually getting the students to think about it, and to talk about it and to engage with it in different ways. And it was from that moment on that the way that my classroom was structured, and the way that we did things was very different to generally what you would see with the teacher next door to me, like in the beginning. And yeah, it kind of really stemmed from the work that those 2 powerhouse educators do and continue to do.

Shannon:

Yeah. There's a great book by Ron in collaboration with some other authors, 'Thinking Visible’.

Alice:

'Making Thinking Visible’.

Shannon:

‘Making Thinking Visible’.

Alice:

'The Power of Making Thinking Visible'.

Shannon:

Yeah, mine has been heavily sticky noted.

Alice:

Yes.

Shannon:

Absolutely. Lots of circles and things that I wanted to bring into my classroom. Really great professional learning in that space. In relation to inquiry-based teaching, I think there's a bit of myth busting that, you know, we should probably delve into because I think sometimes there's this idea or people shy away from the inquiry-based learning in the sense that it's just the learners are all free, you know? We've given them a question and off you go.

Siobhan:

Like, free exploration.

Shannon:

Yeah and it's chaos, there's no structure.

Siobhan:

There's no scaffolding whatsoever.

Shannon:

Yeah. Can you walk us through, you know, how do we embed that gradual release of responsibility in our classroom within the inquiry-based learning?

Alice:

Yeah, and I definitely think at the beginning of my journey into the inquiry space, I was very much the same. It was, oh, free inquiry and genius hour.

Shannon:

Yes.

Alice:

And all of those wonderful things, which has a place but your learners have to have a really solid foundation. They have to have the skills and the knowledge before you let them dive into a full-blown inquiry, you know? If you think about, you know, your primary students, if you ask them to go and, you know, inquire, and research about something and expect them to give you quality work when they have, you know, they don't have the understanding, they don't have the skills to be able to do that. You're not going to get anything of quality from them. So, you know, you really need to still have explicit instruction. You know, it's a really core part of the inquiry process. You have to have that strong foundation. The kids have to know what the skills look like. They have to be able to practice that. And you know, giving them small chunks of an inquiry, so not a full-blown, you know, we're going to spend 10 weeks inquiring about, you know, space or whatever it might be that your topic is. You know, you might spend your lesson unpacking a component of the content that you're focusing on. And the last, you know, 15 or 20 minutes of that lesson might be, all right, we're going to practice the skill of what it might be. You know, it might be around justifying or comparing and contrasting or something like that. But we're going to do that with an inquiry kind of lens and I'm going to do that in a structured and a supported way to give you the skills and the time to practise what that looks like. So it's kind of, for me, it's not a, we're just all inquiry and it's free for all and we're, you know, we've got no structure around it. It has to have that element of ‘I do, we do, you do’.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

Here's what it looks like, let's build the skills together, let's have a go at practising that, let's now review and reflect on how that went. You know, where do we still need to work on either our content knowledge, you know, it might be through your observations that, you know, the kids aren't quite there yet. We need to do a little bit more work in that space or the skills need a little bit more practise, let's, you know, continue to develop that as we go through the process. And using the students, what they're showing you, what they're telling you as that feedback to you as a teacher to go, ‘Okay, we need to refine this. We need to build upon this more.'

Shannon:

Yeah, it's about being responsive, isn't it,

Alice:

It is.

Shannon:

To your learners at the end of the day as well.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

And I think like what you’re talking about, it takes time to, it doesn't happen overnight, like it takes time to build that culture and curiosity within your classroom.

Alice:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Shannon:

And to celebrate that curiosity and it's crazy to think of like our learners now that we have in our class, we are preparing them with these 21st century learning skills. You know, like collaboration, communication, critical and creative thinking, because they're the skills they're going to need for the workforce of tomorrow.

Alice:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Shannon:

So, I think that's why I really aligned to inquiry-base and having that exploration in your classroom, and celebrating that.

Siobhan:

So, is this something that's embedded within, like the school that you're at now? Or is this something you share with other educators as like a form of professional development, or?

Alice:

Yes, yes. In the school that I'm at now, we very much have an explicit teaching focus, and particularly in our other KLAs. So, you know, your sciences and history, geography, all those kinds of ones, we look at it through and weave in an inquiry focus into that space. That's where the staff at the school that I teach at feel most comfortable utilising that pedagogical practice because there's not, you know, obviously it's still a personal choice for you as the teacher, as to, you know, how you deliver the content, how you support the students in that space. And, you know, it's not like a, you know, ‘I'm leading the school, so you must do it this way.’

Shannon:

Yeah. It's not a one-size-fits-all.

Alice:

No, it's not. No. So it's, you know, that's where they feel most comfortable exploring with that pedagogy in that space. And that, you know, I'm happy to support that. In terms of other educators, it's definitely something, a space that I have, you know, supported others in helping to understand, helping them with what it looks like in their classroom practice, and the questions that they might have along the way.

Shannon:

Yeah, and I think, like for me, when I was starting my journey off, I suppose, and by no means am I an expert, but I started with my KLAs like science because I felt like that's where I was comfortable.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

And that's where I could sort of trial, I suppose, in that space. Whereas, it took me a while to be more comfortable and build up my skills and capabilities, and quite frankly, my bravery.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

You know, to trial it with like English and maths and things like that and weave it in in that way. So, it's definitely one of those, it's like a stepping stone.

Alice:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I definitely, no, you're right, you find what's comfortable for you and then it's not until you start working in the sciences and your humanity space that you go, 'Oh, I could bring this bit of English in.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

'And I could bring this little bit of maths in,' you know, and you get to the point where your kids go, ‘But we're in a maths lesson where we’re looking at art.’ Or you know, we’re doing some science concepts. It's like, 'Yes, we’re learning,' you know, all of the subjects support each other.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

We're not, you know, teaching everything in isolation and when you get to that point, it's kind of like, ‘Ah, you know, we’re learning. We've got real learning happening.’

Shannon:

I love those questions from students. I feel like they're my favourite moments where they're like, 'When am I going to use this in life?' And yeah, look, I always fall back on the, 'Let's talk about what you did at lunchtime, who went to the canteen?'

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

'What'd you do at canteen? You bought something. How'd you know how much it was going to cost? What skills did you use?'

Siobhan:

'How did you communicate?'

Shannon:

Yeah. 'How'd you tell the canteen lady or man what you wanted?' But yeah, definitely align to that.

Siobhan:

So, if I was a beginning teacher, what kind of pedagogy or practice would you suggest that I start implementing within my classroom when I first start with my year group?

Alice:

I think the easiest practice to kind of start with is kind of looking at the way that you question students and the types of questions that you're asking them. So, kind of thinking around the Bloom’s taxonomy, you know, the levels of questioning continuum that he has. Looking at, you know, are all the questions that I'm asking them requiring just a basic recall of information, that lower order level of thinking. Am I pushing them to think, you know, to explain their thinking, to justify their thoughts, you know, getting the higher levels of thinking happening in the classroom. Yeah, definitely looking at starting in that space, which leads in then nicely to, you know, dabbling with thinking routines and the 'See, Think, Wonder' is the easiest one to use. That kind of, I guess, opens up the space in the classroom for the students to feel comfortable to share their thinking and to know that people see things differently, they have different perspectives, and it kind of creates an environment where those are accepted. You know, we expect people to think differently to us, to challenge the way that we think, and to create an environment where I can share my thoughts knowing that you've probably thought something different and we can talk about that and then go, well, actually I can see your perspective and that makes more sense now that you've shared that. So, I definitely think those probably are the 2 easy ones to start with.

Shannon:

And when we talk about, I'm just like actually giggling here, thinking back to when I first introduced ‘See, Think, Wonder' in my class. So the whole thing is like, you might use a visual, for example, or a concrete material, something, depends what you’re studying at the time. For example, if I think of maths, I remember this one time in particular, I was doing patterns in algebra with my class, and I was like, 'Great, I'll do a 'See, Think, Wonder' I put up lots of shells, all different sort of patterns and fossils, et cetera, on the board.' And I said, 'What do you see? What do you think? You know, what do you wonder about this image?' And crickets. And why was there crickets? Because I hadn't explicitly taught how to use it. And I think like they're the moments that you're like, 'Okay, right, Shannon silly. Go back, like, we need to do this together.' So, you know, then I went back to my gradual release responsibility. I do one, we do one together, and then you all do one. But that didn't happen overnight, like it was a real building block that I worked on with my class. And one of my favourite ways to do it was in groups.

Alice:

Yep.

Shannon:

So, you know, having them sort of work together in mixed-ability groups to complete a 'See, Think, Wonder' and it's just phenomenal what comes out of their little curiosity. It sparks off one another and they just like piggyback. And I loved that little buzz in the classroom, that little hum around, you know, let's get curious, let's investigate, like, what are we thinking about when we look at these fossils, and the things they'd come out with?

Alice:

And you often find that's where you truly like tap into their background knowledge.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

And you can kind of see, 'Oh, actually, you know, more than what you're letting on.'

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Alice:

And you have that level of understanding that I can push you further in this space, and we can actually dive into this area a little bit more because that's what the kids need. You know, I can see that they've got that level of understanding through that discussion, through those thinking routine prompts that, you know, you end up finding that the learning that you do in the classroom is richer for it.

Shannon:

Yeah, and not a bad way to pre-assess as well.

Alice:

Mm, absolutely.

Shannon:

You really like, I think it, you know, it just took me time, and this is every teacher, like it takes us time to trial things and, and see what works. But making those connections for me, like I can use this as a pre-assessment and I can use this as an observation for their learning.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

I can even use it like post.

Alice:

Yeah. And a great formative assessment tool.

Shannon:

Oh, absolutely. Let's work smarter, not harder, people.

Alice:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

So, you know, like I think about that time with my 'See, Think, Wonder' and my students, and look like I, I knew my students in and out and I knew that they were such curious beings by nature. And I think that's why I knew I needed to sort of take their learning in a different, on a different road, I suppose. But what does it mean to look at learner readiness, I suppose? Like, talk to me through like your sort of process with that.

Alice:

Yeah. I think it's one of those things where you need to obviously know your students, and understand where they're at with their knowledge and their skills, but also look at how do I scaffold and I structure that so that the kids have success. So, it's about that starting small, choosing one thing, so like a 'See, Think, Wonder' to start with. And you might say, okay, well we are going to look at, you know, we're going to do some visual literacy with an image from a text that we're reading and we're going to do the 'See, Think, Wonder,' but I'm going to chunk it down into small parts so that we can all achieve success.

Shannon:

Yep.

Alice:

And you know, it might be, okay, 'I want you to tell me all the things that you see on that image, and let's record them. We're going to record them together. Now tell me why you think that particular part of the image is placed with that one.' You know, all of those kinds of questions that you might throw at your kids. 'Right. Let's record that thought down. What is it that picture makes you wonder, how does that connect to what we already know about the text that we've been reading?' Or, you know, you might use it as the beginning before you read a text. And doing that a number of times so the kids are used to, 'okay, well, when I'm asked to do a See, Think, Wonder, engage in that thought processes, here's what the teacher's asking me.' You know, it's about them understanding when you're saying to me, see, you are asking me to look at something and you're asking me to list it. So it's a very, you know, surface level, low order thought processes. I need to know as a learner that, you know, when you are asking me to identify something, here's what that means. When you're asking me to compare and contrast, here's what that means. So, I have to know what all of those verbs mean, but you have to show me, and you have to demonstrate it to me, you have to help me practice before you let me go on my own.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

So it's about, and I reckon you probably spend initially the most of your time doing it with the kids.

Shannon:

Yep.

Alice:

Giving them a little bit of autonomy over, 'Okay, now I want you to write down your wonders. Have a go at doing that by yourself before we come back and have a look at that collectively.' But it's that gradual release of responsibility model and knowing when is the best time to release them so that they achieve success. But it's kind of, you sit a lot in that, we do space, I think initially until you can go, 'Right, they're ready.' And you start to see them apply it in their learning without you even saying it. You know, the more that you use those routines, and that's why they're called routines, because the more that you do them, the more they become routine. And it becomes a way of thinking and a way of doing things. And you know, you get to the point where the kids will be engaging in learning, and you see them use the routine without them even realising it. Because you've built that structure, you've built that foundation so that they can look at something and go, 'Okay, here's what I'm doing. I can apply that without having to walk through step by step.' It becomes more fluid and focused in the way that they use them.

Shannon:

Yeah, and there's nothing better than when they hit you back with the question, 'Well, Miss, what do you wonder about?'

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

I'm like, job done.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

No, I love it. They get really into it as well, and they build their own capacity with those routines, like you were just saying and it's exciting to sort of see your learners come on that journey with you and celebrate being able to be creative and critical thinkers.

Alice:

Absolutely, yeah. And to use the language too.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah.

Alice:

Like, you know, you see them, the more that you use it, you start to see them using the language, and they'll be like, 'Oh, I noticed that this.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

See that. I wonder why this? And it's like, yep. A job is done.

Shannon:

'You guys are doing amazing.'

Siobhan:

Checking for understanding as well.

Alice:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

Sure.

Siobhan:

To reiterate that language to you and that's how you know that they've got it.

Alice:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

Well, what do you wonder is quite an abstract thing.

Alice:

Yeah. It is.

Shannon:

What does it mean? We need to unearth what it means to move forward and understand it.

Alice:

Yep. And it's when you share your wonderings with others, particularly as a teacher, you know, when the kids share what they're wondering about, that you can go, 'I can build that into and weave that into the learning that we're doing so that we're answering those questions.' And the kids then can see themselves in that process of learning. And they go, 'Well, I wanted that question. We're actually going to explore it. It fits with what we are learning. And we are going to take that and learn about it. And connect it with, you know, the broader concepts that we're, you know, you know where we want to go.' And it gives them more ownership over how they get to that end point because they can see themselves in that process, and they have a voice and a say in how they get there.

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Siobhan:

And what you were referencing before Shannon, in terms of like, 'Oh, I, you know, used my thinking routine and it didn't work.' Yeah. Yeah, looking back now, you know, I'm wondering if for you, Alice, you know? is there something that you know now that you wish you could tell your beginning teacher-self what not to do or what to stop doing? Or what you just should know at that point in time?

Shannon:

Good old reflection, hey?

Alice:

Yeah. I think probably would go back and just say, 'Be kind to yourself.' You know, as a beginning teacher, you feel like you have to know it all, and be all over everything from the moment that you walk into a classroom. But that's what the other teachers are there for, to help support and mentor you, you know? So, ask for help would be a message I would tell my former self. You know, reach out. You know, people don't think any less of you for reaching out and asking for help. And, you know, read as much as you want or as much as you can about the topics that interest you. And, you know, go wherever your passion leads you.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. I think a big part of that as well, you know, is reflection and cultivating that practice of reflection. Like, I said, I was like, 'Come on Shannon, this is not working. Why did you do it like this?' But I'm not afraid to say, 'Hey, like, it didn't work.' But I tried again and I built that capacity.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

But part of that was my reflection.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

So, you know, what advice do you have to beginning teachers to really cultivate that practice of reflection?

Alice:

I think there's some core questions that even as an educator now that I ask myself.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

You know, when I'm looking back at the end of the day, you know, I kind of go, 'Okay, well, what worked today?' You know, what were the glimmers? What were the shining moments? You know, and really taking stock of, you know, here's where I was successful today and what didn't work. And why was it that that worked, but that didn't. And what was it about that moment that, you know, wasn't, you know, didn't hit the nail on the head like I was expecting it to, you know, it could have been the time of day that we did things, it could have been how I structured or scaffolded it for the kids. And really kind of, you know, making a mental note of those things. But also looking at, it's only probably been the last few years that I've, you know, added a few questions around who benefited from what we did today? But who didn't? You know, who am I not picking up? Who's flying under the radar? That's, you know, needs a little bit of pushing or is struggling, but not telling me that they're struggling, you know, kind of diving that little bit deeper. So, it's not just about me and my practice, but you know, having that little bit of a focus on the students as well. And then what does that tell me about how I'm, you know, pitching the learning in the classroom. I find, and it was probably only, you know, after about my fifth year of teaching that I started writing my observations in my Assessment lesson plans.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

So, any of the adjustments that I'd make, I'd always go back to the lesson plan that I made, I'd put them in red and then I'd write down any of the observations that I noticed about the kids.

Siobhan:

Yep.

Alice:

And pop them all in there so that come report time, I could go back, look at all the observational notes that I've made around, you know, who was able to do different things, who got things, who needed more support. And it really gave me a really good strong platform to go, here's where my kids are at. I knew exactly where they're at, at any given moment. I could track that progress through the teaching and learning program that I had. You know, it wasn't a document I created in the holidays and then I didn't look at it again. It was something that I was looking at every day.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

Actively changing it, and writing all over it by the end, you know, it just had red everywhere, all of these notes.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

But it meant that it, you know, if I was on the same grade the next year, I could go back and go, 'Okay, here's what worked for this group of kids. Yes, I've got a different group, but here's how I might change and adjust that to suit these kids.' See if that lands the same way. Look at the tweaks that I made. You know, things that, particularly if you're picking up a unit that someone else has written.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

You know, their context, that they're working in could be very different to yours. So, looking at what do my kids know? What's their level of background knowledge? How do I support them with the skills that they have to get them to this point? You know, where are we going? And what do they need to get there?

Siobhan:

Yeah. And it sounds like obviously you, I would assume you share a lot of this knowledge with your staff. What does knowledge sharing look like in the context of your school, and particularly with the early career teachers?

Alice:

So, we operate with professional learning communities at our school. So, we have a literacy and numeracy and our wellbeing. They drive all of our school improvement initiatives. And so we have a team of teachers from each of the stages who meet to focus on that initiative but they also work to build each other's capacity. So, you've got very experienced teachers who lead these professional learning communities, working with teachers who, you know, are 10 years into their career, right down to beginning teachers. And so they really work together to build capacity. They work to understand, you know, where the school's at with that particular initiative, and then how to work collectively to drive it forward. And then they also have the opportunity to then lead the professional learning for the rest of the staff around that. So, I think I find that model works really well in getting staff to work collectively and collaboratively together to build the skills of all staff. So, everybody's on one of those 3 teams. And gives them ownership over where we are going as a school and how we get there.

Shannon:

Yeah, it sounds like you're very much, you know, part of your ethos as an educator is really that lifelong learning, and building that capacity, you know, future educators.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

What sort of, you know, lasting effect do you hope to have on the teachers that you have that impact on?

Alice:

I suppose, I guess if you know something that I have experienced or done with, you know, the students that I've worked with or the teachers that I work with makes one ounce of difference to somebody else, you know, helps them on their journey, then I'm happy. You know, I don't do anything in my career to, you know, be in the spotlight or anything. But my, I suppose what drives me is helping others. And you know, if I can help one educator, then you know, my job is done.

Shannon:

That's why we became teachers. Hey.

Alice:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Siobhan:

Has there been, you know, one memorable project in particular that really stands out for you that you've implemented?

Alice:

I think back to when I taught Year 6 and we were doing a unit that centred around space. So earth and space was, that was the focus of the unit. And you know, we really, it's really exciting content to be delivering to Stage 3 students.

Shannon:

Oh, it's my favourite.

Alice:

Mine too. And we started with this really cool provocation around, it has something to do with one of the planets or something like that. And it was enough of a hook to get the kids in and they just wanted to know more. So, we built the unit around exploring the different planets, and understanding space travel, and, you know, we connected in what we were doing in the literacy space in with our science units. So, the texts that we were reading about, you know, had a very space-centered focus. So they were, you know, fiction as well as non-fiction texts. The vocabulary we were learning, you know, it was all kind of tied into one. And it culminated with us going on an excursion to Sydney, to Observatory Hill.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah.

Alice:

And took the kids in there where they could, you know, be immersed in all the history of that place. They've got this amazing dome where you kind of sit in this seat, not much bigger than this, and you lie back and it's got this space, you know, it almost takes you on this tour of the planets through this room that they have. And the kids were just so engrossed in the learning, but the questions that they were asking, the tour guides, they were like, 'What have you been learning about?'

Shannon:

Wow.

Alice:

Like, the level of questioning that they had for them. They were like, these kids know a lot about space. I was like, 'Yeah, we've had fun.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Alice:

And it was one of those things where it's like, yeah, this has had a lasting impact on the kids. And they were just, you know, the higher order questions they were asking, the tour guides were like, oh, I have to think about that answer. Like, you know, it wasn't just your stock standard. Oh, you know, which planet is that and you know, why do you do this? It was, it was really cool to see the culmination of that and all of the learning that they'd done. They're able to apply it and, you know, ask further questions in the excursion that we had.

Shannon:

I always used to get really hyped about earth and space in that unit as well.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

It was just, I don't know, there was something different about, with the students I'd had, they were always just so into, they were just like big space. Like they just loved it so much. And I remember we did this, we did this unit, like cross-curricular with mathematics on like what your birthday would be on the different planet.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Oh, we had so much fun. Oh, my goodness. It was just like exponential.

Alice:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Understanding about, yeah. How old you'd be and, and you know, on the tangent, what do you think you'd look like if you were like 7 billion light years old? We had a lot of fun.

Siobhan:

Well, what's the consensus on Pluto now these days? Are we still calling it a planet or.

Alice:

Oh, it's a dwarf planet.

Shannon:

It is a dwarf planet.

Alice:

Yeah. It's not considered an actual planet.

Siobhan:

Good.

Alice:

It's been demoted.

Shannon:

It has, sad for Pluto. Sorry.

Siobhan:

Had to confer with my space nerd.

Shannon:

Got kicked out of the club.

Alice:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Sorry Pluto.

Alice:

But it's really cool to see, you know, in the leadership position, seeing those units being taught in classrooms now. So, I have a child who is in Year 5 and he's just gone through the space unit.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Alice:

And seeing his love of space and the questions that he's asking, it was like, 'Oh my God, I just want to be back in the classroom.'

Siobhan:

Welcome to the club.

Alice:

Who wants me to teach space. I'm coming to teach space.

Shannon:

If I could opt in earth and space, like only sign me up.

Alice:

Oh, living world too, I quite like.

Shannon:

Oh yeah, too. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I understand. Yeah. Yeah.

Alice:

She's not sold.

Shannon:

Now that you've thrown living world at me, but yeah, I really, earth and space is my jam. Yeah.

Siobhan:

Well, unfortunately, that's all we have time for today but I'd like to thank you, Alice, for joining us on the couch today and sharing your journey and pieces of advice and really great, I would say just strategies that you can grab and go with into the classroom and really use them to make a difference. So thank you.

Alice:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Siobhan:

You’re welcome. If you enjoyed this episode make sure you share it with a friend, someone who would benefit from listening and until then we’ll see you next time. Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe, to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team, from the NSW Department of Education.

[End transcript]