Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Teach NSW Podcast. Myself, Shannon and Siobhan joining you again as your co-hosts and today we are so excited to have Matt joining us on the couch. Matt is an assistant principal in a NSW public school on the traditional lands of the Dharawal people. So welcome, Matt. Thank you for coming.

Matt:

Thanks so much. Good to see you guys.

Shannon:

Good to see you as well. Matt joins us today to talk about his teaching journey and how he's giving back in a number of ways to the system that he was educated in. So, public school through and through.

Matt:

Yes, public school. So, I went to public school in England where I was born and started in Australia in, I think it was Year 8 in the Sutherland Shire. And I just love it, like I think public school for me is the way to go and I love that we are one system and I love that we get to make a difference in kids' lives, which is really cool.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Love it. Can we get to know a bit more about you outside of teaching first, with a couple of ice breaker questions?

Matt:

Love it.

Siobhan:

Yeah. What's your guilty pleasure?

Matt:

Oh, white bread.

Siobhan:

Yes, but heaps of butter?

Matt:

Heaps of butter.

Shannon:

Like a Wonder White? Yeah.

Matt:

No, like bakery white bread. So, the $1.20 loaves, just.

Siobhan:

You’re speaking my language.

Matt:

Yeah, I reckon I could eat half a loaf.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

Easy.

Siobhan:

Agreed.

Shannon:

I understand that.

Siobhan:

That's a good one, for sure. What about if you had to go without one of the following items for the rest of the school year, which would it be?

Matt:

Great question.

Siobhan:

A whistle, a whiteboard marker or a printer? Which one are you choosing to go without?

Matt:

Oh. I think a whistle.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

Because I can clap and so I.

Shannon:

That's very clever.

Matt:

I think a whistle. It would be really hard because all of those things are essential, but a whistle.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Okay. What about you, Shannon?

Shannon:

Honestly, I think I'd get rid of the whiteboard marker.

Siobhan:

That's so funny.

Shannon:

I know, it's a bit rogue.

Siobhan:

Why?

Shannon:

Because I don't really use it as it is.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

At the school that I'm at, we have the interactive whiteboards and we can use the.

Siobhan:

Oh, that's a loophole.

Shannon:

That is a loophole. So yeah, I'd probably get rid of those. I don't know if I could do without the whistle. I've mentioned previously I love those like squeezy whistles, the squistles?

Matt:

Favourite thing. Squistles!

Siobhan:

Squistles.

Shannon:

Squistles.

Matt:

Wow.

Shannon:

I actually don't know if that's the proper name, but it's what I call it and it works. So, and you can just, yeah. I just squeeze it and it's good to go.

Matt:

Do you find that's loud enough, though?

Shannon:

I do actually. Yeah, I do. Especially like it's really handy on the oval.

Matt:

Right.

Shannon:

Or in a class, if you're co-teaching with 60 Year 5 and 6s, it works quite effectively.

Siobhan:

That's so funny, so we have no, what were you, no whistle?

Shannon:

No whistle.

Matt:

No whistle.

Siobhan:

No whiteboard marker. And I'm going to go no printer, because I reckon I could survive without. Because I could project up onto the board, first and foremost. Secondly, I love using whiteboard markers and letting the kids draw on the tables.

Matt:

Amazing.

Siobhan:

Even if they're not whiteboard tables, it comes off really easily and it's a nice lesson at the end in cleaning up your space too.

Shannon:

True.

Siobhan:

So yeah, I'm going without the printer. I honestly think I could survive without it.

Shannon:

Okay.

Siobhan:

A lot of things are digital these days, so.

Shannon:

That's true.

Siobhan:

You know?

Shannon:

That's true.

Siobhan:

One from each category.

Shannon:

She's going to email her end of year awards.

Siobhan:

I'm going without the printer, not the SASS staff are going without the printer. Thank you very much, another loophole.

Shannon:

I'm the same. I'll go without the whiteboard marker, but the students will need their own.

Siobhan:

That's true. Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah. Loopholes all round.

Siobhan:

I love that. Well, it's good to get to know a bit more about you

Matt:

Thank you.

Siobhan:

In that sense.

Shannon:

Yes, exactly. Well, let's sort of take it back to your journey through public education.

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

In you becoming a teacher or deciding to take on teaching as a career path, was there an influential person or factor that attributed to that decision?

Matt:

It's a really great question and something that I think I've talked about too much because we all have that teacher that's made a difference. And I had so many. The first one was my Year 3 and I think my Year 5 teacher in England, in this tiny little school called Long Row Primary School, which is quintessentially English. It's got cobblestones.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

It's just the most beautiful place and when I was in her class, we were going through a fair few challenges at home, but for me, school was a really safe place. So, I'd go into her classroom and I felt like the most important student in that room. And the lovely thing is, is there's a Facebook group that's dedicated to Mrs Taylor-Jones and there are countless students in there that,

Shannon:

Oh my goodness.

Matt:

Yeah, that all had that same feeling. So firstly, I realised I wasn't that special because everybody else felt it.

Shannon:

Like, wow, there's a lot of people in here.

Matt:

Yeah, but I think that's what great teachers do.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

They make a difference in kids' lives and they don't know. And many years ago, my wife and I went back to England. My mum still lives next door to the school in England.

Shannon:

Oh, wow.

Matt:

And I gave her a hug and it was sort of, I gave Mrs Jones a hug and it was sort of this awkward, I like cried and there was snot everywhere and it was just horrible, and my wife's like, 'That's really not cool.' But I said, I just said to her, 'Thank you.' Like, 'Thank you for all of the little things that you did to make me feel safe and valued and heard. And thanks for making my classroom a really safe place to be in.' And she, of course, as all great teachers do, had absolutely no idea. Like for me, I think, I was just like another student and I don't say that to take away from the great work that she did, but it was just what she did.

Shannon:

Well, yeah, that's what I mean, it was obviously her way. So to her

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

It was probably just, she embodied that

Siobhan:

Her standard.

Shannon:

For all of her students.

Matt:

Yeah, and I have no idea what this wonderful lady taught me. Like I know, because I'm familiar with that Stage 2 syllabus.

Shannon:

Yeah, but you remember how she made you feel.

Matt:

Yeah, there was probably some fractions in there or a bit of 2D space or.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

But I don't remember any of that. Like I remember how I felt in a classroom, and that's why I wanted to be a teacher. And looking back, I didn't realise it then. Sorry, then I didn't realise it but looking back, I go, ‘Oh, that really made sense.’ And then when we came to Australia, I had the privilege of going to a local high school, and there were just so many incredible teachers. And now having like, my daughter is in Year 2, about to go into Year 2, and my other daughter's about to start Kindy. So, like I get to like kiss her goodbye at the gate and trust someone else to look after her from Monday to Friday. And that's a big deal.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

Like, that's a huge privilege. So yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to get into teaching and there's never been a day that I haven't wanted to do it. Like there are some tough days, but there's never been a day that I go, 'You know what? I'm done with this,' because it's a privilege. It really is.

Shannon:

I always think that, especially even giving advice to like pre-service teachers, I'm like that is someone's pride and joy, their world, their child, that is their world and they are, you know, coming to school every day and they're in your care. And you have the privilege to like look after, fulfil all the hopes and dreams of these little students in your class. Like it's a huge, huge

Matt:

It is a privilege.

Shannon:

Responsibility but a privilege.

Matt:

Yeah, like no other. And not everybody has the option of having kids. So I understand that. And for me, it's intensely personal now.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

That I get to send my kids off.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

As we were talking about before we hit record, like we are part of one system, and we are stronger when we are working together.

Shannon:

Yeah, for sure.

Matt:

And I think it is a huge privilege. I couldn't do anything else. Like I couldn't, I don't know, I couldn't work in an office and not.

Shannon:

Yeah, what else would I do?

Siobhan:

It's my purpose.

Matt:

Yeah, I love the wonder and the magic of the classroom. There is nothing like it when the bell rings and kids go, 'Oh, do I have to go to lunch?'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

It's the best job in the world. That was very long-winded.

Siobhan:

No, it's interesting to have, I feel like we haven't actually had that unique perspective before, so it's nice to hear your sort of, ‘why’. I'm interested to also hear from you as you've now entered into the classroom and journeyed through the public education system as a teacher, have you had any strong mentorship in your time as a teacher?

Matt:

Oh, so many. And on the way here, I drove past a wonderful school in south-western Sydney that I used to work in. I just wanted to see it and I haven't been there probably for, it would be 5 years, and I just did a quick loop, which is a bit weird. Like I was just driving around like this and I was like, ‘Oh, like that's where I used to do playground duty.’

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

There was this one teacher that was a great mentor there called Katarina and she was just the most, and is the most compassionate, brilliant teacher. And one of the many things I loved about working with Katarina is that she, there was a standard and you knew what that standard was, and if you weren’t up to that standard, she would very lovingly let you know. But she was always about working with kids and always about making a difference in kids' lives. I've had the privilege of working with some incredible leaders and incredible teachers and even now in my role, I get to work with an amazing team of educators with a different range of abilities and expertise. And every day, I learn something from them. I walk around with a notepad and I'll go, 'Oh gosh, I never thought about that.' Or, 'I never thought about organising the classroom in a certain way.'

Shannon:

We always talk about that, saying like, that what you learn from observing others is like so profound. Even we used to do, I think they were called ‘ghost walks’ at my school. And it was part of like our professional development as a school and after school from like 3:30 till 4:00, I think it was, we would walk through classrooms.

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

So, as a stage, you would sort of like nominate who wanted to sort of like pop their classroom up for, you know, a ‘ghost walk’. And we would leave sticky notes in each classroom about like what we saw and what was really wonderful, and like for me as a teacher to come in the next day or later on after that

Siobhan:

Read that from your colleagues.

Shannon:

and read the sticky notes. But they were all anonymous, like, you know, no one said like, 'Oh, Shannon said this.'

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

But I don't know, they just,

Matt:

I love that.

Shannon:

Yeah, you feel like it's almost like a reward. Like you're just like, it's really nice to have that, collegially, like someone noticing what you're doing, and they see why it works. And then it sort of had this really nice flow-on effect of these organic conversations in the staffroom. Like, 'Hey, I loved how you did that. I've actually started doing it in my classroom.'

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Or like, 'Hey, I saw that in your classroom. Would you share that with me or could I get a copy of that?' And it was one of my favourite things that we actually did professional development wise, because you've just learned so much. You don't get the opportunity to go and see different classrooms. Yes, in a leadership role, but as a classroom teacher, it's, sometimes the structure doesn't allow for that with how the school is sort of, you know, what it's focusing on. So, I thought that was a really, it was really beneficial.

Matt:

I think that's really important because there are so many great things happening each and every day in classrooms.

Siobhan:

That's right.

Matt:

And teachers, I think sometimes we forget that we are experts. Like we are really good at our job, and there'll be so many things that would happen in people's classrooms that they think, ‘Oh, that's just normal.’ Like, ‘It's just normal that I have a word wall like that. It's just normal that I'm explicitly teaching vocabulary, or how I differentiate.’ And we think that that's just, ‘Ah, yeah.’

Shannon:

Standard practice.

Matt:

Exactly. And I think sometimes we forget that we are experts in what we do.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And there is amazing things that happen every single day in classrooms, and to get to share that, I think is really cool. And there are people in classrooms that have got way less experience than me doing things that I had never dreamt of at that stage in my career. And I go in all the time and go, 'Oh, I'm going to steal that.'

Siobhan:

It's incredible.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And imagine like as a new teacher, imagine somebody coming in who's in a leadership role or supervising you going, 'You are doing an incredible job. Can I steal that?'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

The answer's like,

Siobhan:

‘Yeah.’

Matt:

‘Yeah.’

Shannon:

And that's a wonderful boost as well for a beginning teacher to have that compliment. And I feel like that would really sort of boost me.

Matt:

We do something similar like with our stage meetings and this wasn't my idea, this is another lady that I work with, suggested it. But we have stage meetings in different classrooms and we rotate that time. So, one week, it's in this room and then the next one and we spend a little bit of time, it might just be 2 minutes or 5 minutes and it's the teacher whose classroom we're in who just says something that they're really proud of. So, they might say, 'Oh look, I love how I've set up the reading corner on Tammy White,’ and that's a really nice way I think of shouting out. And also it builds that collaboration I think between stages because sometimes we can get a little bit isolated. And that's just been a little thing that has been a game changer for us. And then we have that, like, shared responsibility of this is not just my classroom, this is our space, or this is every student in our state and in our school for that matter, is our responsibility. And we have a little thing and we say like, 'Who's this kid?' And we'll put a picture of a kid on the board, on the smart board and they have to say, the teacher whose child is in their class isn't allowed to answer, but the other students in the stage have to go, 'Oh, that's little Johnny. He's great at handwriting.' And the question might be, ‘How can we help him?’ Or, ‘He needs to make more friends at recess and lunch.’

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

So, that's been a,

Shannon:

And everyone can identify?

Matt:

Yeah, it's been a really nice way of sort of sharing that responsibility because while they are your children, because they're in your class, it is also our stage and every student in that stage is our responsibility.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah, for sure. We used to do the rotating with our stage meetings as well. I really enjoyed that.

Matt:

That's been one, and there's so many like little things that we think, ‘Oh, we need a lot of money to implement this or we can't do that. We've not got enough time.’ But there's actually, there's so many little things that you can do, like little tiny things that are free, that seem like they make no difference at all. But when you compound that over the course of a week, a term, a year, those are the things that make a difference.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan:

Going back to, you mentioned before about the mentorship that you've received and then touched a little bit on, you know, your generosity with beginning teachers or you sort of, I suppose hyping them up, I guess.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

I'd been interested to hear more about how you have passed on that mentorship that you've received and now giving back to the beginning or early career teachers.

Matt:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

What does that look like?

Matt:

Well, I don't think I've, I’ve definitely not always done it well and it's something that I'm continuing to get better at.

Shannon:

Well, we're lifelong learners at the end of the day. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

I think being present is really, really important. And we all have those days. I've got 2 young kids and some days, they just drive you crazy.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

Like last night. And it's really important, I think too, when you're at work, like be at work, like, be present. We've all got other stuff we've got to do. We've got to pick up the Click and Collect and pay the electricity bill and the mortgage is due. I get it. Life is complicated.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

But I think the people that you are leading and responsible for, you have to take the time to really be present with them. It's about being intentional and knowing what things are going to make a difference and what things aren't.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I mean, you can reformat that email, like that's great. Like I love a well-formatted email and it's important that there's no typos.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

But that's not the thing you should probably spend 3 hours on. Maybe step back a little bit and go, ‘Am I just busy here or am I actually making a difference?’

Shannon:

Well, it's even like small things. When I was a beginning teacher, I remember, you know, like everything I wanted to print and laminate everything.

Matt:

Yeah. Pinterest classroom.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Have your own slides.

Shannon:

I had curated PowerPoints and X, Y, Z. But a couple of years, maybe in my second year even, or I had a mentor who was pretty honest with me as well. She was wonderful. She would say to me like, ‘Are they learning anything different if you just drew it on butcher's paper?’ And I was like,

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

‘They're not,’ and that would be co-construction, so maybe that's probably the better thing to do. But that took me time and having that mentorship from someone to be able to be like, 'Hey, did you think of it like?' She didn't say, you know, ‘You should do it like this.’ It was like, 'Well, what do you think of this?' It was like the way she would pose those questions to me, and to me I'm like, wow, talking about that emotional intelligence, like she's getting me to come to that on my own.

Matt:

And I think that's like a great leader.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

Because then you feel like, ‘Oh, I've had this amazing idea.’

Shannon:

Well, I was empowered, right?

Matt:

Yeah, and you feel like a superstar. Like I.

Shannon:

I did, I was like, 'Yeah, you're right. I'm going to do that. I'm going to get that butcher's paper, and this is fantastic.'

Matt:

But I had that on like a word wall and I had a word wall that was really high up. I was like, ‘Wow, look at this thing, it's beautiful, it's laminated, it's incredible.’

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

All my Pinterest followers, which are

Siobhan:

They're going crazy for it.

Matt:

5.

Shannon:

My 5, ‘I blew up.’

Shannon:

This is amazing.

Matt:

And it was so high up and I was so proud of it and I said to my supervisor, 'Hey, come and check this out. You know how we did that PL on like vocab, like, look what I've done.’

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And then she walks in and goes, 'It looks very pretty, but you do know that you teach Kindergarten.'

Siobhan:

And they're not.

Shannon:

5 year olds can't extend.

Matt:

They need to be able to access it, they need to be able to get a word

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And get back to their desk and use it. And I thought, 'Oh, okay. It needs to be accessible.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And so, now when I go into a classroom and I see a classroom as a working space, like that's so much more meaningful. It can still be organised, it can still be pretty, it can still have pastel colours.

Siobhan:

Or it doesn't have to be.

Matt:

Or it doesn't have to be.

Siobhan:

So long as it's a functional working space.

Matt:

And I think one of the best lessons I think I ever did, it was in a demountable and it involved butcher's paper, whiteboard markers.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

I mean, what you can do with a Post-It note as a primary school teacher is unbelievable.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And a high school teacher.

Matt:

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And so, I love those kind of classrooms where you go, this is obviously a shared space and kids own this space.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

Because it's not about the, I know so many people that would have a really beautiful classroom, it looks great on Instagram, but then you go into the storeroom and it's chaos. And so, let's not paint this picture that it needs to be a certain way.

Siobhan:

Do you have any advice for first-year teachers on setting up their classroom?

Matt:

Oh, so, so much. And this is all because I've made all of those mistakes. I think firstly, organising your space and thinking about things like people flow or student flow. So, if you have all of your trays in a corner, you're going to have 25 kids rushing to those trays, it's just not going to work.

Shannon:

Did that in my first year.

Matt:

100%. I got rid of my desk quite early on, and it's a bit controversial, because I actually wanted a place to be able to put things. For me, my desk was just a dumping ground of everything. And so, I got rid of it, so I needed to have an actual space for everything.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I needed to put it away as opposed to just putting it down. So, I got rid of my desk. So, I think, I usually start the year with pretty blank walls because I want kids to be able to contribute something to that.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And the only other piece of advice I'd say is make it relevant. Like, don't be precious. Don't have a display that's up for 12 months. Because you're not learning the same thing for 12 months. I used to pull down displays every 5 to 10 weeks because it just wasn't relevant anymore.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And so, I think really, really take the time to think about the space. What do you want? What do you want it to sound like? I'm a big fan of those colour dots on the floor in Kindy. But I'll sort of move them around. For example, I would use them say, for differentiation. So, these colours, I would be able to break my groups up using that.

Shannon:

Like sit spots.

Matt:

Sit spots, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan:

I know what you're talking about, guys.

Shannon:

I was like, I don't know if Siobhan’s seen these before.

Siobhan:

I am well aware. I've taught Kindergarten classrooms over my time.

Shannon:

Get Siobhan a sit spot.

Matt:

Yeah, and I.

Siobhan:

And can it be purple, please?

Matt:

I love it. I think the only other thing I would say is like go and sit in your students' seats and take the time to think about like, what does it look like?

Shannon:

Perspective.

Matt:

Yeah. And there was this one student that I had that was vision impaired. And I didn't think in my first year of teaching, you should probably sit her close to where she needs to be so she can see the board. So, I used to go around, sit in each of the seats and think about, what does it look like? Is there something obstructing the view of the board? Is there something which is distracting for this kid? And it's just one of those little things that I think makes a difference.

Siobhan:

Yeah, you kind of need to make the space functional for who you have in that year, right? Because you might set up your classroom really well in 2022 and then in 2023, you have a whole new set of students and you need to make it accessible for them too.

Matt:

I remember trying a, like, I used to have like a walkway around my classroom because I wanted the words, the vocabulary to be accessible. I wanted students to be able to get up and be self-sufficient. And so I had a masking tape track essentially around my class. And that worked quite well because a student could get up and go and get the thing that they needed to do to help them with their work. But then the year later, I tried that and it was chaos because I had an extra 5 kids and there was just no space. So, I think that flexibility is

Siobhan:

For sure.

Matt:

Really, really important.

Shannon:

And co-constructing your learning environment with your students as well, once you've.

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Had them for a couple weeks, got to know them a little bit. I think that's all part of the like student voice and choice in the classroom as well.

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

And don't be afraid to change things.

Matt:

And even like, maybe it wouldn't work in Kindergarten, but if you've got an older group of students, I used to get them to design the space and say, 'Look, I've got 30 students. The things that we have are a whiteboard. We have a reading corner. They are the must-dos.' And you would be amazed at the options.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

And imagine what that would be like for a kid if they came into a school and they're like, 'Oh my gosh, my teacher has listened to me and set up our classroom in this way.'

Siobhan:

Yeah. We threw around the term a bit earlier on in the episode about lifelong learning and the fact that we're always, you know, encompassing that into your practice. What does that term actually mean to you, and how do you see that through and embody that within your school culture?

Matt:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I love learning. I'm a super nerd. Like I'm always reading something or watching something, or trying to find ways to do things better. And I feel like I know less now than I did when I started teaching. Because when I started teaching, I was like, 'I have got this, I've done all the study, I've got it.' And I didn't, I had no idea. But now I feel like I know what works and I know those sort of few fundamental things, but I'm also pretty flexible with all the others. And so, for me, I'm always listening to something. I'm always listening to audio books and listening to things that in many ways I disagree with because it's important for me, I think to, we all live in these bubbles, and to be able to go, 'Oh, I'd never thought about that.' I'm always learning. I love studying, probably a little bit too much. So, I've sort of stayed at uni, in and out, forever and I probably need to stop that. But the world is a fascinating place. I mean, it is changing all of the time. I learn so much from my kids, from my students. So, they'll tell me something that they're working on, and I'm like, 'I've never thought about using Minecraft to create a model of our classroom for 3D shapes.' I've never thought about that. So, having that open mind, I don't really stop, which I think can sometimes be a detriment. Yeah, and I think I look back at when I first started teaching. Like I'm a completely different person, a completely different educator, a completely different leader, than I was when I first started because the world is a fascinating place, I think.

Siobhan:

When we were talking previously, you've mentioned that you've had the opportunity to kind of meet a lot of other educators, influential people in the space. You've just mentioned now that you've been studying or in and out of university. What has that been like meeting influential educators and how have you brought that back to your classroom and shared that with the community?

Matt:

Yeah, our profession is an incredibly generous profession. And so, like, quite often, I'll read a book and go, ‘Oh my gosh, like, I wish I could share that with someone. It's really interesting.’ And so, about 5 or 6 years ago, I was down at the University of Melbourne and doing a Masters in Instructional Leadership. I wanted to get out of NSW and look in, because we all have an accent. Like I was born in England and I don't think I have an accent, but people say I do. And so, like, I wanted to sort of peer in as an outsider into a system that I care deeply about. And I remember sitting in a lecture with Professor John Hattie, who's just amazing and thinking, 'My gosh, like there are so many teachers that need to be here and need to hear this.' And so, one of the ways I kind of wanted to give back was to start a podcast around those conversations about how can we firstly, do a better job of professional learning, because we've all sat in professional learning and gone, 'Ugh, I could be at home,' or, 'I could be eating white bread on the couch,' or, 'I could be doing something else.' So, I wanted to try and create a place to have professional learning on demand and free, which is really, really important. And I think when you get to speak to these people who are really quite amazing, they're just normal people that genuinely care about being great teachers and genuinely care about making a difference. It is interesting talking to your heroes because I think sometimes you think, 'Oh my gosh, like they're just so beyond what I could comprehend.' And then you realise that they're just struggling with the same thing. Or you hear a story. I was talking to Professor Yong Zhao, for those that are not aware is quite a well known professor and he was saying that, I'm paraphrasing here, but his first year in teaching, like he was terrible and he hated it. And he thought, 'Oh my gosh, like the reason why I went into teaching was because something else didn't work.' And I remember having that conversation going, ‘I never knew that you are just a normal person like everybody else trying to figure it out.’ So, for me, being able to share those conversations has been really meaningful. And it is a way of just giving back to a profession that I care so much about. I still can't believe that we can have a conversation for an hour or so and that be distributed to thousands of people.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

That just blows my mind that someone can be driving to work in Sydney traffic or driving to work in America or mowing the lawns in Spain and hear a conversation that we're having.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I still can't wrap my brain around that, but I think a way of getting really great ideas out into the world, and also highlighting the great work that teachers do, so try to strike that balance between academia and also what I call the heroes, which are the people in class every single day.

Shannon:

I really resonate with what you're saying, like getting, you were so, you know, like privileged to be able to talk to these prominent figures in education and then part of you starting the podcast was to be able to bring that into listeners' ears and teachers all around. I suppose for me, I feel like that really equates with like equity across the system as well. And you having that opportunity, being able to bring those educational figures onto the podcast to share their voices, to share their research, their theory, their practice, et cetera, I think that's such a digestible way for teachers across all systems to be able to have that professional learning.

Matt:

Yeah and, I think you're right, like absolutely right. The equity is really important. And for much of my career, I've had the privilege of working in south-western Sydney in some really low socioeconomic schools and it's important to me that all teachers get access to world renowned thinkers and that their practice is improved, because sometimes we can't afford to spend big money getting big speakers to come in or that money is better spent elsewhere.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And I think that's why, like, it's such a privilege for me to work in the public sector and I think for me, like public education is the way to go because it is about equity.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And how can we make sure that every single student, regardless of where they live, regardless of their postcode, has a teacher that is an expert and that has access to a world class education system. And we're not there yet, but I love that our organisation is working towards that.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And it shouldn't matter where you go to school. It shouldn't matter how experienced your teacher is. It shouldn't matter what your professional learning budget is. You should be able to have access as a student to a great teacher. And I think all teachers deserve to work in environments where excellence is expected.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

So yeah, that's one of the reasons why I do it, and it's just fun. Like, it's really fun, connecting with people and.

Siobhan:

Of course.

Matt:

Reading a book and going, 'Oh.'

Siobhan:

'Hey, that's you.'

Matt:

Yeah. ‘Hey.’

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I always get a little bit nervous every time I see people's names pop up on Zoom. And because they go, 'Oh, that's that person, that's that.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And like a lot of the videos I haven't published because my kids are running in the background and it's just chaos but it's a really fun thing to be able to do, and a way to invest back into a system that has given so much to me. I think it's important and I think we should. And as busy as we are, we've all got lives, we've all got stuff to do.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I think you're never too busy to give something back. I think that's really, really important.

Siobhan:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

We even talk about, you know, as teachers taking on a pre-service teacher for their professional experience, like that's us as professionals giving back to the next generation of teachers.

Matt:

You've always got time for that.

Shannon:

Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way as well to sort of sit back and reflect on your own practice, I think, being able to sort of look at what the new wave of teachers are coming through the system, learning at university and what best practice is, you know, being shown and demonstrated at a tertiary level. So, there's always something to learn.

Matt:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

I'm interested to hear, because you have heard from so many great thought leaders or people in the space, how do you synthesise all of that information, bring that into your classroom? Like what's working for you? What are a few high-impact strategies that are working for you at the moment in your classroom context?

Matt:

Yeah. That's a great question. And I think I need to do a better job, I think, of going back and relistening to that just for my own professional learning. I do struggle, I think, hearing my own voice recorded.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah. We can relate.

Matt:

Yeah. And so, like practically, like I've just finished reading a book by Professor Andy Hargreaves and he talks about middle leadership.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

And I would love to be able to get that book for our middle leaders and say, 'Read this. Like, this really articulates some of the challenges that you are dealing with.' And so, that would be one of the ways of doing that, is taking a conversation that we've had and then actually putting it into our school setting. Or there was an interview I did with Dr Fiona Young, she works for an organisation, an architectural firm, and talking about the importance of spaces and really, really thinking about how students interact to think what affordance is, which is how they interact with spaces. And so, it is a bit weird kind of referring or recommending something that you've like done to someone. And I think to be really clear, I am not that expert in those conversations, I just get to learn from some pretty incredible people.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

But I think you're right. I think taking the time to say, okay, what does this actually mean for those people that are listening? But yeah, it's really fun and until it stops being fun, I'll just keep doing it, I think.

Siobhan:

I love that. And what about in terms of within your classroom at the moment?

Matt:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

What is working for you and your students?

Matt:

Yeah, so I'm a multi-class assistant principal, so I don't have my own class. So, I teach RFF across my class. So, I teach history to each of the classrooms, which is so good, I'm absolutely loving it. I think to answer your question about what that actually looks like is, for example, with Dr Fiona Young's work, I really think about the space. So, I'll go in and even though it's not my classroom, I'll arrange it in a way that allows students to collaborate.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

In a way that allows students to ask questions. Really simple things like having sort of subject-specific word walls. It's hard because, and I'm assuming this is an issue that high school teachers have, is that you sort of go to a different room, so whatever I have has to be transportable.

Shannon:

Easily transportable, yeah.

Matt:

And so, making sure that there's really subject-specific vocabulary being targeted, students are using it, students are engaging with it. And then of course, we're very privileged to be an Apple distinguished school. And so we use obviously Apple products to really help engage and differentiate our kids, but we also use Google Classrooms to make sure that we have a stage Google Classroom.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And that really helps to make sure that all students, regardless of where they are geographically in the school, have access to that differentiated curriculum.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And it's really, really useful for things like cross-stage composites, which can be quite tricky. And so, what I try and do is make sure that there is always an opportunity to learn, whether I'm there or not. So, even during class time when they're back with their normal teacher, letting them know that there is always going to be something that you can do. And so trying to set up those, the different types of infrastructure to really help students has been really important. And that idea came from a conversation that I had with someone who was an expert in that field. So, I think it's really important for me to be able to do the thing that I say I'm going to do and actually have that integrity, but constantly learning. I do get a little bit distracted sometimes. Like I'll read a book and go, 'Oh, I've got to do that.' I'm like, 'Hang on, no, I need to implement the last thing.’

Siobhan:

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Matt:

So, I'm trying to exercise a little bit of restraint, in a way.

Siobhan:

Yeah..

Shannon:

I imagine working as an assistant principal with your stage in that capacity doing release from face-to-face teaching with their classes, that would be such a wonderful opportunity to get to know the students and build that rapport with them. Particularly when it would come a time where, you know, you would need to intervene in a behavioural matter or you know, you would need to have a conversation with a family. You'd have that sort of relationship with the students already from being in their classroom and teaching?

Matt:

Hopefully. It's a model that we've been trying for a few years at our school. I'm part of a wonderful school, my boss is amazing and it's a model that we've been trying and we really look at those like preventative strategies.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

There was a book I read a little while ago called 'Upstream' and it talks about, how do we prevent things before they happen.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

The issue though, of course, is how do you measure things that didn't happen and things that you prevented? But I think the idea is that, how can you be proactive as opposed to being reactive?

Matt:

And being in classes.

Shannon:

Siobhan and I are big fans of that.

Matt:

I love it. If nothing happens, you've done your job.

Siobhan:

Yeah. If you could have our listeners take away one message from this episode, what do you think that message may be?

Matt:

Just take your time, like, move slowly, take your time, be kind to yourself. And just choose one thing and do that.

Siobhan:

Enjoy the small moments as well.

Matt:

There’s so many.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Celebrate the wins, enjoy those, you know, ‘A ha’ moments that the students have and, yeah, I think it’s a really great take away.

Matt:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Beautiful.

Siobhan:

Well, that's all we have time for today on our episode with Mathew. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your wisdom, expertise, and insightful guidance. I think our listeners will really find it useful. I personally did, so I hope that they do too. That's all for today. We thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you on the next episode of the Teach NSW Podcast. Bye bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning into the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe, to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @teachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team from the NSW Department of Education.

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