Transcript of MoneySmart teaching

Katherin Cartwright: Well, good afternoon and welcome, everyone. Hopefully you can hear me, and you can probably hear the music as well. That will turn off when we move to the presentation screen today. You can see behind me that Kerrie is busy on the Chat today. So, welcome to Kerrie. And also sitting next to me here... Come on over. Come into the camera for a moment so they can see what you look like, Colleen. This is Colleen Blancato. I welcome her today. She's the project officer for Financial Literacy here in Oxford Street. And she's going to be running our presentation today around MoneySmart Teaching, a great resource. And she's giving you lots of goodies in the file pod today. Just a reminder that this presentation is being recorded, both the chat and the presentation, and will be available on the Curriculum Support website, where the other recordings sit. From tomorrow I'll upload that. So it'll just take me a moment to switch over and give the headphones to Colleen and then she will start. So, thank you.

Colleen Blancato:   OK, good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for this opportunity. Sorry, I'm just being adjusted here, to make sure that I'm working. That seems to be better. Yes, as I said, good afternoon, everyone. And thank you for the opportunity to spend some time with you, talking to you about MoneySmart Teaching. As Katherin mentioned, I'm the project officer for the Department of Education and Communities for financial literacy. And I have the responsibility of looking after, or managing, this program. MoneySmart Teaching is a national consumer and financial literacy program that has actually been developed by ASIC - the Australian Securities and Investments Commission. The Federal Government has given ASIC the responsibility of financial literacy across the community, and ASIC have put most of their funding for financial literacy into school education, believing that if we start changing behaviours and attitudes from a very young age, then we'll a long and generational change in that area of financial literacy. So, MoneySmart Teaching, it's, as I mentioned, a national program for kindergarten right through to Year 10. And it's being managed in New South Wales through national partnerships. We began trialling this program in 2012, and over 2012-2013, and 90 schools Australia-wide trialled all of the units of work and the professional learning aspect of the program. And in New South Wales, we had 20 schools trialling the program - 15 primary and 5 secondary schools. And now we are very fortunate because we have four years of further funding to make sure that the program is implemented across Australia in as many schools as possible. [INAUDIBLE] OK, now, you know, particularly when people from State Office sit down and say, "Oh, here we are. Here's another area - consumer and financial literacy education," everybody, I can feel the groans back at school. But, no, consumer and financial literacy education is being taught in the context of the Australian Curriculum. ASIC have worked very closely with ACARA to make sure that the program aligns with the Australian Curriculum. And as the first phase of the Australian Curriculum were English, maths and science, at this stage, all our resources are aligned to those curriculum areas. So, it's not a new area. What ASIC is aiming to do is to make sure that consumer and financial literacy is embedded in all areas of the curriculum, just like literacy, numeracy, technology. It's an important 21st-century learning skill and don't want it seen just to be an area that the maths or the commerce, business and finance people are actually teaching. We want everyone to be looking at it in terms of their programs. So, as I mentioned at this stage, aligned to English, maths and science, but as further areas of the curriculum are rolled out, you will see lots more resources are being developed.

The actual strategy itself came from...I suppose, initiated with the OECD. ASIC has representation on the OECD. And because of the global financial crisis, high youth debt, and the fact that money is so invisible and credit so easily available to our young people, financial literacy has become a worldwide issue. Australia has decided to take up that challenge to address this and has developed the National Financial Literacy Strategy. And it was only actually...the latest strategy was actually launched last Friday here in Sydney. So, we actually have an Australia-wide strategy that looks at financial literacy education across the community. For schools, we actually have a framework, which we'll talk about. It's called the National Consumer and Financial Literacy Framework. And as I mentioned, it's also aligned to the Australian Curriculum. And all our professional learning within this program is also aligned to the Professional Standards for Teachers. So it's a complete package there for everyone. We have a website that contains all our teaching resources, including videos, digital resources, units of work, VET courses, online professional learning, and loads of support there for you to implement this into your classroom.

As I mentioned, the OECD was a big driver in financial literacy education in Australia, and for the first time, in 2012, we actually had financial literacy taught as part of the PISA program that normally...well, that tests 15-year-olds in OECD countries in terms of literacy and numeracy. And, as I said, for the first time, in 2012, financial literacy was actually measured as well. And pleasingly, Australia came in third out of the 18 OECD countries, but we've got a long way to go. The performance actually mentioned that, you know, we...we're in that top group, but our metropolitan schools are doing much better than our rural schools, our low-socioeconomic students, or students from low-socioeconomic backgrounds, are not performing as well as from high-socioeconomic backgrounds. So there's lots of areas that we can improve. But what was pleasing, that 8 in 10 students in Australia do have a bank account and have some sort of control over that. So, we've got a good starting point, and it'll be very interesting to see, now that MoneySmart Teaching is in progress, what the 2015 results will be like in PISA. Let's hope that we can get up there with China and be number 1. So, that's something to look forward to.

This is the definition that we use to look at what a financially literate person would look like. And as you'll see there, that we really hone in on knowledge... Excuse me. ..and understanding skills in that area. But as you know, it's useless having knowledge and understanding and skills if we don't actually apply them in a real-life context. You know, I know I have to budget and I know I have to save, but am I actually doing it? So, it's important that we're teaching our students the knowledge, skills and understanding, and applying them in real-life situations and making it authentic learning and helping them to make good and informed decisions for their long-term future. As a result of that, looking at those dimensions there…

We actually have what I've talked about before is the National Consumer and Financial Literacy Framework. And I've actually put a hard copy of this for you in the Adobe Connect room that you can actually download later. It's a document that's been endorsed by all education ministers throughout Australia, and it's actually the policy document that looks at financial literacy education. It's in three dimensions - Knowledge and Understanding, Competence, Responsibility and Enterprise. It's set up in two-year bands, starting with Year 2, right through to Year 10. And there are learning outcomes under each of those dimensions. When you have a chance to have a look at it, you will see that it's...a lot of the outcomes that are in that particular document you'd already be covering in your HSIE programs, your maths programs, and other programs. What's really great about this particular document, it makes consumer and financial literacy quite explicit. So if you decide you don't want to use any of the MoneySmart teaching units of work, but would like to design your own units of work, embed financial literacy into that, those units, this is a really good starting point, to actually have a look at where you can go and what you can embed into it.

At the back of the document, it has a progression of learning, it takes each of the outcomes, and you can see how it develops from Year 2 right through to Year 10. And that's fantastic, if you're looking at differentiating within your classroom, if you want to extend or remediate students, depending on their learning level. So, a really important document, and I'll refer to that throughout the presentation, in terms of our resources. But as I said, there is a copy on the website, as well as in this presentation. So, let's look at MoneySmart teaching as a program. Why would you look at it in your schools? Well, it's pretty obvious. As I mentioned before, we're developing capabilities in our students, we're helping them to make responsible and informed choices, and we're giving them real financial context for learning. But it's equally important for you as a teacher to build your capability. And there are...the program really looks at professional learning, and there's lots of support there for you to build your confidence and knowledge in teaching financial literacy. ASIC's really passionate about looking at your wellbeing in financial literacy. So there are...there's lots of support there within the program and there's an actual particular personal learning program especially for teachers in financial literacy, which we'll talk about. Because there are opportunities to embed consumer and financial literacy into your school programs, and there's lots of support within this program to do that, there are leadership opportunities. And I did mention that all of our presentations are aligned to the Professional Standards of Teachers, so that you can actually get accreditation for that if you decide to go down that path in your school. These are the general key messages that we try to deliver in all areas of our...all our resources. The fact that it is an important 21st-century skill and that know, it's important to build your students' as well as your own health and wellbeing in financial literacy, and you're never too young to start. MoneySmart brand comes from the consumer site. So what we actually have is a two-pronged approach to our branding and to our housing of our resources. We have, on the left-hand side, the MoneySmart website which you may be already aware of. It's ASIC's consumer site. And then housed within that, there's a tab called 'Teaching', and that is where all the teaching resources are available for you to access. So, the consumer site - great for you and your own financial wellbeing. There are lots of tabs there in budgeting, saving, buying a home, investing in the stock exchange - lots of relevant facts, all updated by ASIC on a regular basis. So that's MoneySmart, and I've got the links there for you for that. And then MoneySmart teaching, as I said, is the one-stop shop for all our resources in terms of classroom resources there. If we just go to...think about the actual MoneySmart, the consumer website, on the right-hand side of that web page there is link called 'Publications'. And there are some fantastic little documents there that you could use with your class, just for your own personal wellbeing, that ASIC are happy to send you multiple copies of, particularly if you've got parents that are interested in this area as well, or you can download them. There are also - you see in the centre of that screen - a whole lot of credit fact sheets, and they're in 16 different languages. So if you've got new arrivals in your school community, there's lots of support there for them as well. So I suggest you go to that 'Publications' link and have a look what's available in that area that you can access from ASIC directly. There's also a link on that same right-hand side of the MoneySmart site called 'Families'...'Families'. And there is lots of support there for parents to teach their kids about budgeting and saving. Parents will love you if they know that you're teaching their kids to manage their money. But often they don't have the confidence themselves to actually help their kids in that area of budgeting and saving and teaching, you know, where money comes from and whatever. So there are lots of links in that family page that will support your parents. And a lot of schools, they're actually putting some of this information into their weekly newsletters, just to help support their parents in budgeting and saving with their kids. There's some videos and case studies as well. So that's worth having a look at at your leisure. Again, on the MoneySmart site, there is a tab called 'Tools & Resources' where there are a whole lot of calculators and tools that you can access. There are little online budget planners, money health checks, where you can answer four or five questions to see if you've got enough financial planning in place for your long-term future. There's compound interest calculators, mortgage calculators. These are great for senior students, but they're also great for you or for family members to access. So...and I think there's about 45 of them altogether, and well worth having a look at, and that you can just access and use online, you know, as the need arises. We also have a great app called TrackMySpend, which, again, if you're game, you can download free from any app store, and it allows you to sort your needs and wants, and you can set yourself a weekly, fortnightly or monthly budget, and you can keep track of where all your pennies go. So it's great, particularly good for teenagers. I think they're more likely to use an app than they are, you know, an Excel spreadsheet to manage their budgets. But you can actually export the data from this app into an Excel spreadsheet if you need to at some stage. But definitely I would suggest you have a look at that and download that from your app store. The actual MoneySmart teaching packages, which are all available on the MoneySmart teaching website, there's a K-6 package for our primary students and then there is a 7-10 package. Each of the packages has a teacher guide that provides lots of background information about consumer and financial literacy education. It talks about the National Consumer and Financial Literacy Framework. It has strategies for schools to become a MoneySmart School. There are blank templates, generic activities - a really good basis and background for actually starting consumer and financial literary programs in your school. There is also a facilitator guide, because your school as a whole might decide to embed consumer and financial literacy into your school curriculum. And that guide has lots of presentations, support for you as the leader within your school, to be able to go through that curriculum renewal to embed consumer and financial literacy. And there's actually a parent workshop there because, as you know, if you're doing anything new in that curriculum area, it's important to have parents on board. And there's support there, with a workshop that you can implement as well. So, that's in the Facilitator Guide. Then we have units of work in English, maths and science, which I'll talk about in a moment. And we are actually in the process of developing some online professional learning as well. It's not quite available at this stage, but it will be in the very near future. And that's the link there. This actual workshop that I'm presenting to you now, there will be a 90-minute online one available, hopefully, in the next two or three weeks that you can actually go online, register, you'll get accreditation through the Professional Standards of Teachers, as well as it's self-guided and you can come and go over that course whenever you need to. There'll be a longer version that incorporates curriculum implementation as well, hopefully in the next 12 months. Now, getting back to the units of work. At the moment, we have integrated units of work for Kindergarten through to Year 6, so those integrated units have English, maths and science outcomes. Then we have separate mathematic units for Years 1 right through to Year 10, and then maths units for 7 and 8, English units for 9 and 10. I don't know what happened... Oh, science there for 7 and 8. So, integrated units for primary and then separate units in our secondary package. As I mentioned before, there'll be further units being developed. At the moment, we're here at DEC in Oxford Street developing an umbrella sustainability resource for our Stage 4 students in English, maths and science. As I said, under sustainability with a consumer and financial literacy context. So there are new resources being developed all the time. All of the units of work have Australian Curriculum content descriptions aligned to all the activities. As well, they are linked to that framework. Because, as you know, in New South Wales, we have our own New South Wales syllabus, I have actually mapped each one of the units of work to the New South Wales syllabus. And that curriculum mapping is available for you to download from this Adobe room at the end of the session. It's not on the website because, as I mentioned, this is a national program. No other state is interested in our syllabus. But for you, so you don't have to do that curriculum mapping, that's available. All of the units of work are on the MoneySmart teaching website in PDF and Word doc format for you to download so that you can individualise them for your own class...classwork I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about what the units of work are because this is a fairly short presentation, but in the Teacher Guide within the program, there's an overview of all the units of work, and then, as I mentioned, you can actually go into the website and download each of the units. But, as I mentioned, the integrated units K through to Year 6, and then some individual maths units. They all are, sort of, a project-based style units where there is a real-life context to them and a culminating task that's really quite engaging and motivating for the students. We start off with looking at fundraising with our K-2 area, where they actually use some real coins, looking at planning a fundraising event, working on some budgeting. In Year 3, we start to look at the difference between needs and wants, and they budget...plan a breakfast based on needs and wants. They look at the difference between brand names and generic brands, and looking at the sustainability and affordability of those things. They try to stay within a budget there. A whole range of other activities. And I don't really want to go into too much detail because it will take up too much time, but they are all...they all have sort of skills that the kids can take into their real-life context. For instance, that Year 5 one, 'Never too young to be MoneySmart with clothes', looks at all the peer pressure that kids have to buy brand names in clothing. So the kids design their own recyclable, reusable fashion accessory, and there's a whole lot of other maths that go with it as well, so that's a really fun unit. The Year 6 one looks at the real cost of owning a pet. It's called 'It's raining cats and dogs...and chickens?' And so that'll put all the hidden costs of owning a pet, and they design a chicken coop, so they bring in all their geometry and space and area. And then they design a chicken coop and calculate the cost of what eggs would benefit for them. And, yeah, it's a very sustainable and hands-on sort of approach. All our maths units start off with a story, scenario. And then there are lots of math activities built around that with some sort of culminating event at the end. But as I said, at this stage, two units at least for each year level, and all those resources are available on the website. Now just a quick overview of the secondary. For some of our Stage 3 teachers, you may find that the Year 7 maths unit is applicable to your students because it looks at how to reduce spending. It looks at comparative grocery shopping, where they do a whole lot of comparative costing of groceries and look at unit pricing. And they also look at mobile phone plans. And the students calculate the costs of data downloads, phone calls, whether it's more economical to buy your phone outright or go onto a plan. So they actually really dissect a mobile phone plan. Now, I'm sure a lot of our Year...our Stage 3 students would cope quite well with that unit of work, so I suggest you have a look at that if you're a Stage 3 teacher. All of our units of work use the same template, and we actually have a blank template in the Teacher Guide that you can use to develop your own units of work. But our units are all using this planner. We have all the Australian Curriculum outcomes and the framework as well. And as I mentioned, I have a document that puts a third column in there with the New South Wales syllabus outcomes so that you can replace that part of the unit. It maps to the general capabilities and the proficiency standards. And then there is an actual unit planner for each of the units that actually gives an overview of the teaching and learning sequences, all the assessment tasks and the resources that you need to use. There are very, very detailed teaching notes that you can just...any teacher just can pick up and use. But, of course, you're going to adjust them to suit your classroom. But they are very detailed. There wouldn't be a lot of planning if you decide to take those activities on. And then there are some Blackline Masters there as well. As I said, all available in PDF and Word doc on the website. Each of our units of work have digital and online resources mapped to them. And I our resources in this space, there are...there's a document that takes each of the units of work and matches the digital and online resources. Those resources are also great stand-alone resources. They have great little learning objects that really engage the kids. They are usually in three levels, and there's some sort of scenario that kids need to go through and come up with some sort of result. Lower, middle and upper primary. I won't go into them now, but know, they use quite cute little characters. Like for a 'Fun Day Out', students have to pick...they go into different websites to pick a particular venue to go for a day out, and then they have to cost it based on the number of family members that go with them. There are nine mobile phone learning objects for lower prim...upper primary and lower secondary that look at different aspects of using your mobile phone. So, it's a little interactive that the students have to make some decisions, and the decisions they make will impact on their phone bill that they get at the end of the learning object. So, it's quite engaging, and there's...they are quite cool sort of avatars that they use within those resources. And we're hopefully getting a lot more resources developed over the next four years with the funding that we have, so keep your eye on the website for further digital resources. This isn't an actual part of MoneySmart Teaching as such. It's an additional program. But I'd really like to just draw your attention to it because it's a great program originally written for Indigenous students in northern Queensland, but it's been adapted for all classroom scenarios. Stage 3 unit - 'Do I need it? Do I want it? How can I get it?' - helps teachers develop a school economy within their classroom. So the kids are actually given a job to do, they're paid wages, but, as a result, they have to pay rent on their tables and chairs where they sit in the classroom. They actually get...they have a banking system where they do deposits, withdrawals, pay their utility bills. They get to go shopping, get to save for end-of-term events. So it's a proper class economy. That particular link on the MoneySmart teaching website has all the teaching notes that run that within your classroom for non... It's, as I said, originally written for teachers of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students, but if...great for teachers of non-Indigenous students because it provides a whole lot of Aboriginal culture and history within that program to support your students. There are videos on how it operates within a classroom, all the teaching notes and teaching support material. So it's a really great program. There's an extra one for Year 9 on how I can start my own business, but I really strongly recommend that as a program that could be implemented in any classroom. There is...ASIC have also developed this sort of a WebQuest challenge game that's actually housed within a site called Skooville. Normally you would pay a subscription per child per term to actually access this game, but because you're actually participating in this workshop, you can actually contact ASIC through that email address there, say you've done MoneySmart Teaching Workshop 1 and ASIC will provide you with 12 months free subscription to your class to actually access Skooville. Skooville is a great sort of social media site that's moderated by a teacher for...oh, I think it's about eight or nine hours a day that the site's open. Students can learn about digital citizenship, chat with each other in a safe environment, and then access this great game where they actually have to get jobs, pay bills, and earn points throughout the game. So, if you're interested, if you go to that slide you'll get all the details about getting access to it. I just wanted to draw your attention to St Ives Park Public School. They were one of our trial schools. And they have become a MoneySmart School. And they are really passionate about the program because they've really embraced it and implemented it and embedded it across their school curriculum. And there they've just given some of the reasons why they've continued with the program and what it's doing for their students. They particularly like the wide...the cross-curriculum focus, building 21st-century capabilities. Parents are very supportive because, as I mentioned before, they love the fact that you're teaching their kids to manage money. And it's a great strategy for implementing the new maths curriculum. It provides you with lots of direct support because you're looking at Australian Curriculum outcomes and implementation strategies. So it's always nice to have an endorsement from a school that's working. They have...they actually really took the Year 5 unit, 'Let's have a big day out', and had a competition within the class to cost an excursion. And the winning one was actually an excursion to Wildlife World in Sydney. And the students actually costed it themselves. They had to actually find somewhere they could go for $20. And the students actually were able to attend, have a sausage sizzle, and it only cost them $19.40. So, it was all done by the students. As you know, when you're planning school excursions in your school, you're usually doing all the hard work. Why not get your students to help you out? So, it fitted in really well. And there's an actual, as I online resource called 'A Big Weekend Adventure' for that age group that looks at costing a weekend away, so it's fitted in really nicely. But you can see they' terms of the outcomes in mathematics - addition, subtraction, multiplication of money, and then developing a financial plan within the budget. So, really, real, authentic learning. And there's some photos of the kids actually involved in the program. So, a great endorsement. And I thank St Ives Park for providing that information to us. These are just a few links, and I won't go into them in big detail, that are of external programs that support our program. The Commonwealth Bank provide free workshops for students that you can register online through the Start Smart program. They tailor them for Year 1, right through to Year 11. And they're little one-hour presentations where they come in and talk about some of the issues that we talk about in MoneySmart teaching. They don't promote their products, but there's a little bit of marketing there just with the colours and whatever, so it's up to you to decide whether you would want that within your school. However, the Commonwealth Bank Foundation do provide teaching awards every year for consumer and financial literacy programs, and they give out 15 a year. And, actually, they were only announced last week and six of our New South Wales schools actually won an award, so those schools got $10,000. And the teachers who actually put the submission in get $2,000 as a personal reward, so it's a nice incentive to do a 200-word submission for something that...some sort of program that you'd like to implement. ASIC also have a MoneySmart Week in September, and we provide some awards for $2,500. And unfortunately they are closed for this year, but keep your eye open next year. And the Financial Literacy Australia also have grants that you might be interested in. But there are links on that in the presentation if you're interested. I did mention that is a financial personal program for teachers. It's actually developed by Scott Pape, the 'Barefoot Investor'. He' see him on the 'Sunrise' program an he writes for some of the weekend newspapers. But he has a program designed specifically for teachers to help them feel confident with money. And these are some of the topics that he has looked at, at this stage, and he will put more up in the near future. And what he does is he has a...he interviews a teacher, and there's a video where you actually see the interview, and then he presents a challenge around that particular topic, something that you can do in 60 minutes, 6 hours or 6 days, to improve your financial wellbeing. So, for instance, the 'Being debt-free', it was an interview with a teacher in her early 30s who has managed to pay off her mortgage in her early 30s and how she managed to be able to do that. So it's quite relevant to teachers out there. As I've mentioned, everything aligned to the Professional Standards of Teaching. Just going to finish on this point now. And, yeah...because I think I'm going overtime. I don't want to hold you up. But there are opportunities to become a MoneySmart School. And there is a registration process and it's quite simple. You've done the first part of it by attending this workshop. We will provide banners and marketing and support for you, so have a look at that on the website and feel free to go into that. I'm just going to finish off there. If you are interested in having me come out to the school to present to all your staff in the school this workshop, I'm available to go anywhere in New South Wales to do that. I'll bring hard copies of all the resources on USBs and lots of handouts. And it's usually a one-hour presentation. By all means, contact me and I'm happy to do that. If you would like a certificate today with all the standards, go to this link here, fill in the form, and I will send you a certificate, because I know that in many cases only one teacher per school has actually registered on MyPL, so I won't have everybody's name. If you would like an individual certificate and some handouts and additional information, just go to that link and I will get that certificate to you as soon as possible. So, thank you very much for your time, and I look forward to hearing from some of you schools out there, and hopefully some of you will become MoneySmart Schools. So, thank you for your time. Thank you.

KATHERIN CARTWRIGHT Just before you go, Colleen, before I take over, someone asked about SSP schools, special schools. Do you have resources on there for that?

COLLEEN BLANCATO  Yes. Not specific. And we are...our funding is going towards some SSP schools, but I have been presenting a lot in SSP schools. And there are...particularly with our senior kids, we've been able to adapt some of our primary stuff. But I can tailor a workshop that looks at specific resources that we do have on the website that would be suitable for SSP schools. Worked a lot in SSP schools across the state. Yeah, thank you for that question.

KATHERIN CARTWRIGHT Thanks. I'll take over from Colleen now. Thank you so much, Colleen. People are cheering, I'm sure. I'm cheering. I'm excited that I can charge my students rent for their chairs, that I can possibly win $2,000 for myself for implementing this kind of program, and that I can get my kids to organise my excursions from now on. This sounds fantastic. I'm just going to go to the conclusion slide. I really appreciate Colleen coming today. I know we've gone a little bit over, but thank you, everyone, for staying on. In the file pod today there are wonderful resources that Collen has produced, particularly those where you've matched them to our NSW syllabus outcomes. We really appreciate that you went to the trouble of doing that because it would have been my job otherwise, I think. So I really appreciate that. There's web links in the little pod there as well, next to my slide. All of those are active. Again, I can see a spelling mistake straightaway. I'm so sorry about that. I'm lucky I'm not the English advisor. But the links will still work, so please go to any of those links. As Colleen said, there was a little Bitly link there to the Google doc. You can get certificates for everyone who participates in today's session, and that includes if you're watching this as a recording. So make sure you clicked on that, or when you see the recording tomorrow, you can go back and have a look and click on it if you didn't do that while the presentation was going on. So, we really do thank Colleen for coming and sharing her wealth of knowledge and the wonderful resource around MoneySmart. It really is something that, as a society as well as teachers, we want to encourage for our students and ourselves. I think it's wonderful that there's information there for us, so I think that's really helpful as well. So, yes, the session will be up on the website tomorrow if you want to watch it again and go through slowly and click on any of those links. Thanks, Kerrie, for putting up where I'm going to put it tomorrow. But thanks, everyone, for staying on. And remember, if you do have any suggestions or further information you want... At the moment, this series will be our last, but if there is a high influx of people requesting something in particular, I might be able to find someone, like Colleen, that can come and speak on a different topic as well during these sessions. So, thanks, everyone, for being on. And we'll sign off from now. I will stay on if there's any more questions, but I'll stop the recording. So, good afternoon, everybody.

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