This transcript has been edited slightly for clarity. Listen to the High leverage strategies across creative arts podcast (39:10).

Jackie – The following podcast is brought to you by the creative arts curriculum team from secondary learners educational standards directorate of the New south Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all First Nations People hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders, past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Welcome to the Creative Cast podcast series. My name is Jackie King and I'm a Creative Arts project advisor with the New South Wales Department of Education. Today we have a special podcast for you where we have our visual arts advisor, Kathrine Kyriacou speaking with curriculum officers, Alex Manton and Ravenna Gregory about the high leverage strategies which are delivered in the HSC Professional learning. Please welcome Kathrine, Alex and Ravenna.

Thank you for joining us today. I'm going to start with you Kathrine. So, you've been running this HSC professional learning for some time now. Can you please tell us a little bit about the professional learning program?

Kathrine – Yeah, I can. It's a pleasure to be able to talk about it. So, I've been a part of it since the beginning of 2020 and it's a program that aims to support teachers to collectively improve student achievement. And the focus really is that we're doing that regardless of their socioeconomic status. And there is a focus on closing the equity gap through this program. It's presented by the Quality Teaching Practice unit, but it's co designed by expert HSC teachers. Sometimes we hear about them referred to in the media as the best in class by curriculum experts and educators. And also, what's pretty exciting is that there are education partners on board as well. Each new term, we have new content, new resources that we share with stage six teachers to help them deepen their practice. So last term there were eight subjects doing the pl and the subjects at this stage are being selected because they have high HSC candidature. But the program is growing. The thing that's exciting, I was mentioning before about having a research partner, we're working with Western Sydney University and Emeritus Professor Wayne Sawyer to look at his research into success in the HSC. So, it's a huge project and to be a part of

Jackie – Fantastic. I actually sat in on one of your professional learning sessions last term and found it very inspiring. So today we're going to talk about the high leverage strategies, which is something that you talk about in the professional learning. Can you please give us a little bit of background on high leverage strategies?

Kathrine – Yeah, I can look. The high leverage strategies have come out of the research of Emeritus Professor Wayne Sawyer and he and his team conducted quite a lot of research some time ago that really is specific to New South Wales and specific to the HSC, where they looked at some of the strategies that very successful teachers were using and brought that together. And those are the strategies that we share. All of that research is ongoing and being currently updated with all the teachers who are currently involved so that those are the kinds of things that we share and that we're hoping to share with you a little bit today and we share it through a full day of live online PL.

Jackie – Fantastic. All right, well let's get straight into strategy one, darts. Kathy, can you tell us a little bit more about darts please?

Kathrine – I sure can. Some teachers, maybe if you've taught English might be familiar with darts because it's something that English teachers use and refer to regularly and if people listening were to google darts, they would find a range of information on it. Darts stands for directed activities related to texts and it's something that sounds reasonably easy to explain. But for stage six students, it's a strategy that when used effectively can make a huge difference to students’ engagement with and understanding of written subject content. So, darts is actually about coming up with and planning for ways that your class is going to deeply and actively engage with the meaning of texts that really is the focus. There's a whole range of strategies you could use, but a really easy one for visual arts, and a lot of teachers might be using without having the label for it, is marking the text in visual arts. Teachers often might say to classes that they'd like them to use four different coloured highlighters to mark up some writing by an art critic for example, and they might say to the class, I want your red highlighter to look for where he comments, makes comments using the cultural frame and I want your blue highlighter to be where the critic is really making subjective statement. It sounds like a pretty straightforward strategy. It is, but it's actually getting students to engage with the content that's in front of them and to navigate it and make decisions about it. So that is a very familiar easy darts strategy. Another dart strategy might be categorizing or labelling texts or even trying to come up with a theme for some text that they've read. So for example, again, it's easy to talk about the conceptual framework or the frames in visual arts, students could be given slips of paper with a sentence or two about a range of artworks and then even if you want them to be active and you wanted to use some games, which we're going to talk about later, you might actually give them a pile and you could put them in teams, they're going to read those strips of information and then they're going to categorize them by, you know, running across the room and throwing the bit of paper that is about the world into the basket that you've labelled the world and running across the room and putting the one that really focuses on the artist into the basket that focuses on the artist. I know sometimes with our stage six classes we may be overlooked some of those more active or engaged ideas when working with text, but they're really powerful when you use them purposefully. Something that other art teachers really like to do that I love to do is to get your class to look at some writing and then map it or diagram it or use a table or a chart to break up the information. So there's some simple darts strategies.

Jackie – I love some of those ideas and that last one where we map it or something like that. We did a podcast last year with Jessica McCarthy on sketchnoting, and I just think that fits so nicely into visual arts. Ravenna and Alex, we've got you both here today too. Could you give us Alex some examples on how we might use darts in music?

Alex – Sure, I guess in music it's important to note where do our students in stage six actually engage with texts because most of our content is done through listening and performing and composing and obviously we do have musicology as part of that, but they don't tend to work with a lot of text in music one in particular. Obviously, music two if they're choosing to do elective essays or musicology essays when they've got to write 3000 words, so they're very much going to engage with the text but most of what they do is based on their own analysis. However, it's really important that the text that the students do engage with relevant to their discussion and that they're using their research to support their musical evidence and their observations. So, one similar way that Kathy mentioned just then, that we do in music as well is that highlighting of text. I like to use the term Rainbow editing where they write the who, what, where and why and they allocate a colour for each of those sorts of observations on what is happening in the music. What section is it happening in? And so forth? So that's a really cool way for students to understand whether what they've written contains all the information that they need to include. Sometimes I'll give the students a model or response that is cut up and they have to listen to the music and then put that text back together in correct chronological order, which engages their listening skills as well as their reading skills and learning how to interpret that text. Another way, I guess, is how you would interpret it into a viva in music one or into an essay in music two and extension is the student's ability to be able to transfer text. So, the viva and the essays require the students to gather information, determine whether the text that they're reading is valid, generate and develop their ideas further. Consider their evidence and how it links to that text and then form their opinions. So, I guess that's all part of their critical thinking skills and being able to marry what they're listening skills with the text or that those musicology skills. One last way, which is effective in terms of revising the concepts of music. When the students are getting to their trial exams is having two pieces of music that is played and the students in front of them have statements, observations that happen in those two pieces of music, but they have to work out which statement matches up with which musical excerpts. And it's great if you pick two pieces that use the same instrumentation because they have to listen more carefully and read and decipher the information that you've given them more carefully to then be able to match it up with the correct aural excerpts. So that's another way that we can incorporate darts.

Jackie – Some lovely examples there, Alex, thank you, and Ravenna, we've got you here as well today to talk about how we might use darts in drama.

Ravenna – Thanks Jackie. Yeah, I mean lots of parallels, I think with what both Kathrine and Alex were saying about the way that these strategies are occurring in visual arts and music and the one I think that we're all using or that I use routinely as text marking in terms of that darts strategy. And I guess when Alex was talking about in music, not necessarily engaging with a lot of texts, in drama we do engage with a lot of text. Students do engage with a lot of texts that are written by others. But I guess the strategy that I can think about is engaging with their own text through that idea of peer assessment and self-assessment and what's described as text marking by darts, I guess for me, was always sort of codifying responses. And one of the things that I've always gotten students to do is use the marking criteria. Using the marking criteria, identify where in a written response that marking criteria is being met and doing that in different colours, doing that in their own exam responses or doing it for other for peers exam responses is really nice and I guess I have kind of extended on that by using that in the Director's folio. So not very many drama students do the Director's folio, it's probably one of the most challenging of the HSC individual projects that students can choose to do, but it's really nice to get them to sort of use highlighting to make sure, kind of colour coding a system to make sure, that they are really clearly expressing a concept or vision throughout their folio because it's 3500 words and they can lose track of where that's happening and that the analysis and synthesis of research is occurring, and where the production experiences or they can do that as well with the requirements of the projects are making sure that everything there is being hit in that 3500 word project. I think as well, one of the other darts activities that I routinely like using drama is predicting and I guess moving beyond the obvious things of plot and character prediction. I think the way that drama uses prediction is often through examining subtext and intention of characters. So, what's really going on below the surface here and what could this mean through that kind of exploration of text beyond the kind of what's on the page. And then I like to use as well maybe reading or doing a moved reading of the first moment of a play in stage six that you might be studying and getting the students to make predictions about the style and form of that play just based on that opening moment. So, what is the evidence, what conventions, what techniques are we seeing in this opening that might let us know what the form of this play or the style of this play is going to be and also about its context. And so that's a really good one. And then I think as well, transformation is one that stood out for me in the darts strategies. So, the transformation of a play script into a performance essay. I have found really, really useful with students. So, the idea that what would traditionally be a paragraph becomes a scene with the supporting evidence being the transformation of scenes from multiple plays as well. So, for example, in the compulsory Australian HSC topic, taking multiple plays and thinking about transforming the context and issues of those plays into a thesis and then further exploring how transitional devices can also express a thesis. So, there's kind of complex transformation of texts happening in that activity.

Jackie – Some lovely ideas shared there amongst the three of you. Thank you for that. And I think some students would come along and see a chunk of text and it can be so overwhelming for some students. So, to have some directed activities to break those down and actually some purpose to highlighting, not just grabbing out that highlighter and highlighting random words but having some different colours and making some sense of it I think is some really great ideas shared there. Strategy two, we've got is about building understanding and interpretation. So, Kathy can you take us through strategy to please?

Kathrine – Sure. Yeah. Look interpretation I think is probably an important strategy for all of the arts forms. It's really very important in visual arts because when you interpret you are actually searching for meaning and you're constructing meaning, you're engaging in that act of explanation. And one of the things that highly effective teachers do is really set up their lessons so that problem solving and thinking and applying knowledge rather than just copying it out or reproducing knowledge. The interpretive act is really a big focus in the way that they design their lesson and in what central to their lesson. So, when I'm thinking about that, in terms of visual art, I guess the thing that most teachers, art teachers, would know and understand is that our syllabus is set up with interrelated, so connected interpretive, frameworks and they're actually called that in the syllabus and they are designed to support students to make meaning of source material. In our case it might be artworks in a way that becomes increasingly more complex. So, for us, the frames provide four lenses through which we can view art making and art criticism and art history and their ways that students can really frame up their own interpretations of things. So, when we're talking about Stage six, in section one of the HSC exam students are tested on their ability to interpret works. They’re given unseen plates, a range of source material and that might include an artwork, it might include an image of the artist working in their studio constructing artwork, and it might include a really limited little quote by the artist and then they are asked to construct an account of the way that the artist might have made choices and the actions that they have undertaken. Their processes, their ideas, the concepts that are informing artwork just based on source material that is in front of them. That's all about interpretation. And I guess what I would say is that as teachers using that approach to constructing meaning in your class is incredibly powerful, not just saving it for exams or for test. You know, the lesson once a fortnight where you might have your HSC focused lesson, but actually thinking about the way you teach art criticism and art history as more being about allowing students to develop understanding and meaning rather than spoon feeding them information or getting them to read something that neatly sums up a time period or an art movement or an artist perspective. Another really lovely way to do that might be to give students, you know, a whole range of statements by an artist, sometimes they are contradictory at the beginning of a case study, for example, and then getting them in groups and getting them to try and write about, you know, what values they're starting to see being unpacked by that artist and what connections they're making and maybe connecting that to prior learning that they've done, or to movements that they know about, so that they're actually constructing some meaning and you're building that into the lesson. And it's a focus of the lesson is that really valuing that they are creating meaning in the classroom. I guess that's what interpretation is all about as a strategy.

Jackie – I think it's really great when they are concluding their own meaning from something as well. Ravenna, in drama I'm sure students are interpreting a lot and developing their own meaning for different things. Are you able to talk about this strategy or how you might use this strategy and drama?

Ravenna – I mean, I feel like the interpretation of text is throughout the stage six of course for drama, but also the interpretation of staged moments. You know, it's all about that experience of what do we see on stage, what do we feel because of that as an audience, how does an audience interpret that moment when it's done this way as opposed to when it's done this way. So that idea of directorial intention and its impact as well is really evident throughout the course. And I guess one of the ways of exploring that a little bit further is obviously through the play building and that's the core content for the course, is that group devised element generating and exploring ideas through play building, but then deciding on which one of those interpretations to use, through that selection structuring process. That's the most the place that I find that it's actually most actively happening in drama, even though you might think that it's about that interpretation of script, it's actually in the group devising that you see the mechanics of interpretation. And I think the lovely thing about that is it's through that feedback cycle as well, students have to grapple with I've interpreted this way and I think the audience will interpret it that way as well, but then the reality that often they don't and I have to do things differently. I think that's the really nice thing about that group devised process and then I have to refine and rehearse in order to make sure that intention is realized. And I think, I’ll do a little plug at the moment for one of the resources that we have up on our website, the group devising using research is a stimulus resource. The nice thing about that is that you have multiple interpretations by a cohort, so if you've got more than one group in your year 11 class, you'd have multiple interpretations of the same phrase. And I think that's a really interesting thing for students to see for them to go back and go, well, I interpreted it this way, but how nice is it to see these other students interpreting it in that way. So, I think a lot of these strategies for me, they're sort of, you know, are the bread and butter of the drama classroom, but it's really lovely to make that explicit so that students hopefully can understand that idea of interpretation. What does that mean to interpret into some of the other areas of study as well? But yeah, I think making that explicit is the key strategy that I would kind of encourage and have used.

Jackie – I love that you've given the group devising resource a plug their Ravenna. But as you were talking, I was thinking about our other year 11 unit of work that we talked about just recently, the text and intention unit and how the students are constantly interpreting the practitioner’s practice, for want of a better word, and putting that into movement as well. I think it's obviously very clear in drama that interpretation is happening all the time. Alex, in music, how would you say interpretation is used in music?

Alex – Interpretation can be applied more broadly in music. We’re continually asking students to interpret the music itself and what they're listening to. And often that will also be scores as well, particularly music two and extension where they have to interpret the score. A score is a type of musical literacy, so to speak. In the music two paper in question four, our students are also often given a quote for question for where they need to apply or interpret that quote to their ten mark essay. And so, I guess that's another way that students in music are applying the interpretation skills and sort of unpack that quote and support the quote with musical evidence that's generated from the music that they're presented with. I suppose as well, we often see kids in performance interpreting a cover version, interpreting a piece of music in their own way to create a cover version or an adaption of an existing work, which I think requires similar critical thinking skills and problem solving skills to be able to do that.

Kathrine – I totally agree. The Creative Act itself, we've talked about this a lot visual arts as well, you know when stand in front of a landscape for example and you bring together all of the knowledge skills and understanding you have about representing the land and about what other artists have done and then put your paintbrush onto the canvas. You are interpreting, art making, I'm sure music making and drama, they're all interpretive acts.

Jackie – I love that. And Alex, you've talked about my favourite thing in music and reinterpreting a song in your own way that it's my favourite thing. If I can listen to an album of arrangements of songs and they're just a little bit interesting, then that is my all time favourite.

Alex – And I think that that's what we should be encouraging at HSC students to do when they're picking their performance pieces. I'm sure the examiners would love to see highly creative interpretations that are successful and that they're not just copying the original performance.

Jackie – The last strategy that we're going to talk about today, and I think this is going to be the most fun strategy that we're going to talk about today is building understanding through games, simulations and stories. And, you know, all of these things, my favourite thing about teaching is building understanding in games, to build engagement, simulations and of course storytelling. So, Kathy can you share some of those ideas?

Kathrine – This is pretty straightforward, but you know, again, it's really amazed me working with some wonderful teachers over the last year and a half that really successful teachers incorporate games and simulations and stories and value it as much as, you know, perhaps the rest of us do, and maybe even more. It's a strategy that we're actually unpacking with the visual arts team in HSC PL this term and I would love to just tell you some of the amazing things that art teachers do. But you know, one of the teachers is Carol McGilvery from Kincumber High School and we've had her on this podcast before and what she shares about how she teaches art criticism and art history is just so engaging and beautiful. I thought what I would focus on just for the podcast today is a little bit about storytelling because again, I think it's one of those elements that as a teacher sometimes we can overlook. But I know that for me, if I've ever gone and heard artists speak or you know, if I've watched documentaries or engaged with an artist practice, it's very often the personal story or the emotive moment or some point that is quite impactful. That means that I personally go and research them further and read everything about them and listen to extra things. And I know that that's the point where we want our year 12 visual arts students, for example, to be. We want them to be, you know, interested to know more about the artists that we're sharing in case studies. And so, I guess I just wanted to emphasise with this strategy today that storytelling is a really vital part of any effective teachers art.

To be honest, I look forward to those moments when I'm teaching, where I get to share that little juicy tidbit about an artist and their lives. There's a reason why Frida Kahlo is so enduringly popular. I will say I've never taught her, but you know, students want to know the gory details of her life and what's happened to her. They love if you can feed them some information, for example, about Cezanne and him being an outsider and not accepted by the impressionists. Of course, everyone knows about Van Gough and his ear before they know anything else about his art, but it means that people remember that and come back to that. I know when I'm talking about the contemporary Aboriginal artist Tony Albert's work by revealing his personal family connection to the Hyde Park Memorial, my students become actively politically motivated and engaged to read and learn more about that. So, I guess all of these strategies are interrelated and there's so much more we could say about each of them. But when it comes to games and stories and simulations, I guess, I would say that sometimes they are the moments that really capture students hearts and minds and they really let your students create connection with the content. And we know we started to talk about games earlier when we were talking about the frames or the conceptual framework. Games also have that effect. And I think teachers need to think about them as serious learning even though it's fun. So, I'm happy to hear what music and drama might. I know that drama is going to have a million things to say.

Jackie – Yeah, let's leave drama to last because we've got lots of game ideas for drama. I love that you're talking about stories and you did delve into stories there Kathy, because as a part of the Aboriginal Pedagogy and the eight ways of learning, storytelling is one of those elements and it's so important for engaging students and it does, it just turns their minds on and perks up their interests sometimes, if they can relate to a story that's being

Kathrine – I'm just going to add to that and I'm going to just say that for the teacher, what that then means is that you actually have a responsibility to go and read widely and know more and be ready with your content and know the moment and actually, you know, to use some of those drama games to know the moment when you're going to drop that story because you need to move those kids forward in their seats and get them listening right. So, all of that feeds into it into your own practice as a teacher, I think.

Jackie – Absolutely Alex, we're going to throw to you for stories, simulations, and games in music. What can you share?

Alex – Kathy, I was having a bit of a giggle with what you said about all of the artists and you know, just the interesting things about their lives because it's similar in music and it's tricky though because it tends to be what the kids most remember. You know that J. S. Bach had 20 Children and that Beethoven was deaf. You know, they always remember that stuff or even the latest one that I came across was Stravinsky's The Soldier's Tale, which was actually a theatre work, their performances were postponed due to the pandemic of the spanish flu, which makes that very relevant. That's actually included in our year 11, Music for Small Ensembles resource, that's on our website.

Kathrine – Look, they always remember that stuff, but it does engage them all.

Alex – I was thinking about a couple of games and one of them that I like to play with my students a lot is when they're doing their concepts of music revisions. So, we have our six concepts of music and you write one concept on an A3 piece of paper and place them around the room like concept stations. And each student finds the station to sit at and you play the excerpt of music once and they need to just write down everything that they can hear in the music related to the concept. And then they all switch tables and the next person needs to read what the last student wrote and either add to it or add a new point based on the next playing. And so, you play it six times. And by the end of the class you've come up with a whole concept analysis of that work. Generates fantastic content and is a great way to revise the concepts of music. The other game which I stole from someone that I haven't actually played yet with my own students but it's like a concept contest where you play the music and you give each of the kids some post it notes and they need to write down a musical observation that they can hear, and they have to run it up to the board and place it on the board. And if they're the first to place that particular observation on the board, then they get a point. But if it's the same as an observation that's already been placed, they don't get the point. And by the end, you know, the winner is whoever got the most points. So, find a way to revise those concepts where when they really over it, by the time they should seek comes around.

Jackie – I love that, so getting them to run up to the board. Maybe give them six different coloured post it notes too so they can classify their observations into the concepts as well. So Ravenna, drama and games.

Ravenna – Games and play are central to the drama courses throughout K-12. And I guess at the same time as we're calling this games, I guess a lot of drama teachers that I've spoken to just recently have been kind of moving to calling them exercises to give them more gravitas and to make them more of a serious thing. But it's a funny thing to hear that actually, a high leverage strategy is to call them games. But I think, like the idea of story is so sort of key to drama and that, you know, that coherent dramatic structure is the thing that we keep coming back to in drama, doesn't make this coherent statement. And that statement, even when it's not narrative is about communicating a story, you know, communicating, I keep coming back to intention, but that's what is behind the story, you know, what's the intention of the story. And it's obviously there in all of the warm ups that we do to kind of funnel that energy to harness the collaborative powers that we see in groups, all of that kind of stuff. To build group dynamic to improv is playing games, you know, all of those things are clearly there. But, I guess, in stage six, what you want students to be doing is using those games with a purpose and using that play with a purpose. And that purpose is usually about the actor audience relationship and how either play in the devising process or in the rehearsal process or in the generating kind of process is going to help you to manipulate tension. Ultimately, that's what you're wanting to be able to do, whether that's in a written project or in a performance. And I guess the first thing I thought about is the Approaches to Acting topic which Jacques Lecoq. One of his key kind of concepts is leisure, which is play, and it's through play, to the point of boredom is where creativity, when it's played, to the point of boredom its beyond that boredom that creativity lies. And I think that's a really lovely story to tell students as well about giving significance to play and games and seeing that as a creative process in that same approaches to acting. One of the practitioners is Augusta Boal and I have a colleague who always starts his introduction to Augusto Boal with the story the fable of Xua-xua, which Boal uses himself in his book. And that story is an ancient fable about the discovery of theatre as the art of looking at ourselves as spect-actors. And I think that's a really lovely kind of link for students to interpret. So, all of these high leverage strategy are coming together. They interpret the purpose of Augusto Boal approach to theatre through this story. You know, you don't even have to explain to them what this guy was all about because the inclusion of this story, the reading of this story, the sharing of it is what helps them to interpret. And I guess one of the other things I thought about is that we're asking students to tell their own stories through the individual project rationale as well. We're asking them to tell us the story of the work, to explain the intention through story. And the one that I really thought about that I think is a little bit outside of the box that I haven't used myself, but I loved seeing my colleague use this. My colleague gamified the revision of the two topic areas in HSC drama by creating this really elaborate point scoring system for embedding topic conventions and techniques and key information in multiple kind of mini group devising challenges. And there was a time limit. And, you know, whoever could have the most of these conventions embedded in their group performances by the end of however long would win a prize. And that's that lovely thing of play and stimulation and games all coming together in that in what could have been a really inactive way to revise and instead became this really fun active and hopefully impactful strategy.

Jackie – I love how you and Alex have both talked about gamifying revision because revision can be like so dry and so boring just going over things that they've already learned. So, to gamify and make it a competition, I think is just a fantastic sort of way to engage students in revision. Ravenna, we've got something going on in the statewide staff room this term in regards to games and drama games. And I know you just said that drama teachers would prefer to call them exercises and activities. And I have heard that, that has actually featured in this podcast before about not calling them drama games, but can you talk a little bit about our drama game share?

Ravenna – Yes, I guess that's an attempt in statewide staff room to kind of go, well, there's this the importance of games in readying students for learning in drama. And so whether it's to lift their energy or whether it's to get them accepting offers and collaborating effectively or whether it's to get them focused or whatever it is, we've created a couple of ways that teachers can share their favourite games or the games that they think are most useful and they can do that either through filling out a form which then will be fed into this kind of collaborative collection that's constantly evolving of games to be used or they can do it by recording a game through flipgrid.

Jackie – Yeah, fantastic. Today has been such a fantastic discussion about pedagogy really, about finding different ways to engage our students and lift them to the next level. Kathy, can I get you to sort of finish this off?

Kathrine – I can talk about this stuff all day. It's so inspiring to hear people talk about what they're doing in their classroom and what works well in their classroom. Look, it's been a pleasure, thank you for giving me the chance. And I guess I would say too, I'm really glad we got to share some of these ideas with creative arts, and we're happy to continue the conversation in the statewide staffroom if people want to talk about what's going on in their lessons and what works well. I know our whole team are very happy to have conversations in subject channels about that, that's what we love. And I guess I'd also say to visual art educators, it's an amazing opportunity to tap into some, I'm going to say extraordinary, extraordinary professional learning that has run over a year and a half now where you get a whole day online with colleagues from across the state to talk about just these kinds of things and I just say welcome. Google HSC professional learning visual arts or find it in the statewide staff room, there's a link there. Please come and join us and keep this conversation about what you do in your room that's effective going.

Jackie – Thank you so much for joining us today, everyone and a reminder to New South Wales Department of Education Teachers to join the statewide staff room and continue the conversation. This podcast was brought to you by the creative arts curriculum team of secondary learners, Educational Standards directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email our Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor, Cathryn Horvat at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.

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