Transcript of Music topics

This transcript has been edited slightly for clarity. Listen to the Music topics podcast (36:16).

Jackie – The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team from Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate off the New South Wales Department of Education. As we commence this podcast today, let us acknowledge the traditional custodians of all the lands on which this podcast will be played around New South Wales. Their art, storytelling, music and dance along with all First nations people hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal Australia. Let us acknowledge with honour and respect our elders past, present and future, especially those Aboriginal people in our presence today who have and still do guide us with their wisdom.

Alex – Welcome to the creative cast podcast series. My name is Alex Manton and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Officer at the New South Wales Department of Education. The area of discussion for this podcast is let's talk topics and today, we'll be exploring some selected topics chosen by music teachers for Stages four and five and how they implement these in the classroom in their respective schools. So our first music teacher today is Tahnee Arnold, and she is what we call a super educator. She's based in Broken Hill. Over the last two years, she's taught music, drama, dance and visual arts at Willyama High School, which is located in the remote community of Broken Hill, New South Wales. Tahnee studied at the Central Queensland Conservatory, specializing in music theatre and holds a master of teaching. She's particularly passionate about creating performance opportunities for students in the local community. Our second music teacher today is Kerri Lacey from Kirrawee High School in Southern Sydney.

Kerry Lacey was trained as a bassoonist at the Queensland Conservatory and worked with many professional orchestras in her early years before moving to New South Wales and joining the National Chamber Orchestra and Trade Winds Quintet. Kerry then started working with the Department of Education, New South Wales, in 1991 and is currently the music teacher music coordinator at Kirrawee High School, which is located in the Shire south of Sydney. She believes her purpose in life is to teach people of all ages to be more passionate about music. Her time and energy is invested into building mega music departments and wants to see is many Children as possible get involved in music so welcome, Kerry and Tahnee. Thanks for joining us today. First, are you able to share with us just a little bit about your school, including the role that music plays within your school culture?

Kerry – Sure, Kirrawee High School is has an overarching banner called Measured by Achievement. That's our motto. And underneath that, we have something called signature strengths. So the signature strength. We have resilient learners, respectful global citizens and responsible and engaged students. So under those three banners, those three signature strengths, we have at Kirrawee. The music department has developed three pillars, and our pillars of creativity, collaboration and kindness. So within our school, the music department is an independent block from the rest of the school because it doesn't live within a big block. So it's sort of off to the side of the school. The student's playground is all around it. We have a COLA, so within the school community, it has a very high visual position. So there's lots of music coming out of it. Many children hang around the block and play instruments outside of the block. So as far as the students in the school of concerned, music is a big part of the school community. We often say that the Kirrawee high school musos are rock stars because they come from other schools where music doesn't have quite the same. I don't want to say high status, but the kids are proud to be involved in the ensembles. The kids are proud to be in a member of the music department.

We have over 1200 kids in the school. Of that, over 180 are in the music department in some way, shape or form in either ensembles or electives, mainly in the ensembles. And we have all elective classes from elected nine and 10, right through to 11 and 12, obviously and 7 and 8 mandatory. So it's an extensive department.

Alex – Fantastic sounds like a very vibrant community.

Kerry – It is. The department itself just sits between like it's at the back of the hall. So when you look at the actual physical space or the physical layout, there's ramps that come up to our veranda. Between our building and the hall used to be this big garden, they've just completely cut that down. And what they've done is created a teaching space. It's fake grass, and the kids now all starting to gather there and sit there and talk during recess and lunch. So when you see the block, it's a very welcoming place. It's a very vibrant, as you say, place for kids to come, so they feel very happy and comfortable there.

Alex –What about you, Tahnee?

Tahnee – So we have just over 500 students at our school. We also have about 20% indigenous. We do have quite a large portion of the school from low socioeconomic backgrounds. We have a very diverse cohort, and many other students do not really have a lot of knowledge in music and think we have. Like in the last two years, we've had one student who played the violin so any orchestral music that's not what our students are after. They're looking for popular music, but it's an essential part of the school. In the last few years, we've had a few students said, you know, have achieved band six is which is great. So the students who do work really hard and there're other students were looking up to them and wanting to be like those students. And the ones who are performing at assemblies and doing those kinds of activities. They don't have a great foundation for music when they come. There's not that many teachers or students outside of school who get private tuition, or the families may not have the finances to support those student's passions. But before school, recess, or lunch we always have students in our rooms, in the staff room, wanting that space so they can practice and better their skills. Yeah, I think it is pretty cool, but definitely very driven, like the students who want to participate in the music program.

Alex – Great. So what sort of instruments do your students play Tahnee? What are they into?

Tahnee –Yes, so I'm a vocalist predominantly, so I love working with vocalists. Quite a few of them coming through, guitars, bass drums. But yes, your standard kind of pop/rock musicians coming through. Yeah.

Alex – Kerry. What topics do you teach in stages Four and five at your school? And how do you teach them? How do you plan?

Kerry – We have just completed our first five-year plan of change would be the best way to describe it and we reconfigured all of stage four and five topics. We have a variety of students who come to the school with some background music and some that don't. And like Tahnee's school, we have some kids. We have a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds; we're very proud of the fact that we provide a free ensemble program at the school. So what we did, what we wanted to do was connect the ensemble program to the senior curricula and build to develop the music 2 and music one students' skill set in year 11. So what we did was we worked backwards. So for Stage four, we introduced drumming. That was one of the first things that needed to be introduced because we didn't have any drumming of any sort. The rooms were very subdivided when I first got there; they had composition happened on this day, and performance happened on this day. There wasn't all across curriculum across integrated teaching happening. So what we did was we introduced African drumming in year seven. Then they do skill tech of guitars. They do keyboards, and then they do music and animation, which is a technology unit. Then, in year eight, we introduced Japanese drumming. So we spent four years buying these Japanese drums overextended budget, So we introduced Japanese drumming. We then introduced Launchpad as an app on their iPads; we then introduced small ensembles and gaming. And so, in year seven, we were focusing mainly on rhythmic drive. We're focusing particularly on word banks and end of units. We were looking at developing their ability to be creative from a composition perspective in groups and collaboration to put that together. Then we get to Stage five, and we focus specifically on certain things that we needed for music two. So they do Beatles. They do musical theatre. Then they do side projects. They do jazz stomp, and then they just showcase for their parents and then for year 9 it's all about harmony chord functions and things like that. In year 10, they do minimalism, film music and then they do their showcase for parents. They will then do Australian music, small ensemble and decide their projects at the end. So they're all about fragmenting development by the use of texture, all that sort of thing. So that's kind of how we structured those that that flow through from 7 to 10.

Alex –Wow. And so do you have a pretty big music to cohort?

Kerry –Yeah, So we've been very fortunate. When I first got that, we had one, sometimes one year, nine class, sometimes two, year nine classes. But it only a year 10 class. Now we've been getting two year nine, two year 10. So our numbers for music two and music one have been building, which is nice most of the time in music two we have about we've had eight or 10 kids. Now we're getting 13 to 16 kids in that cohort and then the music ones have been usually big that this year there are 18 in year 11. So I've got 16 in music two and 18 year 11 in music one.

Alex – So, from a practical perspective, Kerry, how do you manage 30 year 7 kids drumming?

Kerry – Enough drums for every kid. And there were these packs that we could buy that had 15 Djembes there the smaller Djembes, so that was pretty affordable. We purchased 1 year and we bought one pack the following year. So then we ended up with 30 Djembes. We've got them stored in like one of those pigeonhole cupboards. It goes along the wall, so all of those kids play djembes, and we have some bigger ones that were used. We bought some dun duns, but again, this was over three years. We budgeted to buy this stuff because it was a target was a particular target. And all the kids play the African drums. So they all learned to do the bases and the tones. They learn all the rhythms we teach rhythms using fruit. Don't laugh. Don't laugh that we teach them using fruit mangoes. OK, we use, we use mangoes, we use pineapples. We use, um, watermelons. We use water, the mango. That's fun. So we use fruit names to help the year seven's learn their rhythms and patterns. We do things in cells, so we teach them in two beats or teach them in four-beat patterns. So watermelon plum, we'll do watermelon plum, mango plum. That will teach them in block patterns for African drumming. And we do the same thing with the Japanese. We spent it took us three years to get the drums, but we only have. We have the daiko. We have one daiko, we have two hira daikos and then we have five Shime Daiko. So that is what we call a class set. And so we rotate the Children on those in groups. That's how we manage it and those that aren't doing that. They are on tyres if you can believe it. Go-cart tyres. Yeah, you get those, and you wrap them in like a gaffe Plastic. Like that hard gaffe, you can get from office works. Wrap them in that you could wrap them in base plastic and then wrap them in that and they are fantastic as djem as djembes and also as daikos and things they make great sounds. Kids can beat them up. Nobody you know can't do anything to break them or anything like that.

Alex – Fantastic. How did you come up with that, Kerry? I have to say I haven't heard that one before.

Kerry – I'm very blessed that I have a colleague of mine, Dave Manual, who does a lot of Taiko drumming around the place. And he's the one that said to me, Kerry, get the go-kart tyres on. You can get them for free at a lot of places. There'll be places that are tossing at go-kart tyres. They are small enough to get them the relative size that they're easy for kids to manage. You could take them outside, and nothing happens to them, and it's great works well and of course garbage bins, garbage bins too. So you pack the garbage bin lid with like a thick felt, the super thick felt and then coat it with the same, I guess OK, and a. So long as the kids don't hit it with the taiko sticks. That's good because if you hit him with the taiko sticks, you break the garbage bins, and so you got bits of garbage bin everywhere. It's bad you don't want that.

Alex – Oh, wow. And Tahnee, what do you teach in stage four and five.

Tahnee – So I have so far taught stage four it. But I'm just starting to Stage five. So I've got what I've got planned? Not yeah, 100% consolidated. But in year seven. We break concepts down, so in term one, we look at tone colour and duration the way we look, a tone colours is through the instruments in the orchestra. We are looking at each of those families, what the materials those instruments made out of? So why they make those sounds? Why, what the size of the instrument, how that effects pitch of the instrument. And then also we look at duration. So I find that seems to be one of the most complex concepts for the students to digest. So we start any kind of rhythm work right at the start of term one. In term two, we look at the piano find that's the easiest way to teach pitch. We also look at expressive techniques, and then term three we're looking at composition. We also looked at the guitar, looking at structure and texture. And then by the time we get to term four, they've got enough information to start their ensembles, and we begin to put them together in a band.

Alex – So do they, sort of you, have guitars and percussion?

Tahnee – So term 1, when we focus on percussion drums, tambourine and then yeah term two we have a new set of keyboards that is very focused entirely on that. Then guitar term three.

Alex – And then you're putting it all together term 4. Is it challenging with teaching the orchestral family when they have never seen those instruments before?

Tahnee – They're very interested. We were looking at the woodwind family today, and we do have some of the instruments in at the school. Still, usually, students don't wanna play with them. And I think with the flute, And they're like, Oh, my God, do we have one of those of the school? And I got it out so they could see what it looked like. It was quite exciting for them. They're just not exposed to those kind of instruments. So I remind them, as well in like, you know, you do watch TV, and you'll notice like in a lot of ads there is classical music. So even like the building of the repertoire that we listen to, I'm like this will be familiar to you, so it's good too, I guess, to see where these sounds being produced from?

Alex – So what are some of your student's favourite activities? Um, that really engage them in their learning, Tahnee?

Tahnee – They like anything with a little bit of competition. We have this one little activity that's called 'Smack it'. So divide them into teams. So this is after they've learned where the notes are on the stave, and so they compete against each other and have a magnet each - dividing the classroom in two. And who, which other side of the room gets the most points wins. So I'm like, OK, show me where a C is on the stave, and then they've got a race to be able to show me where C is, or whatever the note happens to be, or if you divide them into teams was all right. So we're going to do a quiz. So we can test your music theory knowledge. Still, also I mean, mostly, it's performing like but, yeah, most favourite thing is always performing. That's the first thing they ask you when they when you get to the classroom. We performing today. Are we doing prac?

Alex – How about you, Kerry?

Kerry – My kids love to. My year sevens and eights, they're like yours. They come running to the block, and they just want to get their hands on things. We do a lot of play, learn strategies, and play first before we learn many things and use card systems. So we have, like, component card. So there are word banks for each of the units. And so, for example, African drumming. Let's say they learn ostinatos or cross-rhythms, they know call and response. They learn a variety of things, and so we'll give them these card things. And also then you've got 10 minutes to compose something, using those things then come back and play. They like playing for each other in groups scenarios. When it comes to that sort of thing, they don't enjoy so much playing by themselves. However, they do like the challenges. So we do set challenges to our kids. For example, the guitar unit they do is what we call the personal best unit. So the students have levels so that the level seven systems, they worked through the levels and they aim to get as high through the level system as possible, and they're rewarded for various things that they love to come in and go. I'm on level five. Look at me. Oh, I'm fabulous, you know, and so they like to show each other like to play for each other. It's one of the things they do love to do. Anyway, the stage five kids just want to play in groups. That's just what they want to do. They want to play with their friends. They want to play in small groups.

They want to have the chance to create and write and, you know, use the skill sets that would give them. But the problem is, there's never enough room. That's the biggest issue. Yeah, no, You know, trying to have you got a class of 30 in year nine or a class of like, I haven't got a class of 20 with two sets of classes, ones in their tens, class of 20 and even getting them to do stuff like that are hard. There's not a lot of room in the place of the room.

Alex – You just mentioned creating and writing; Kerry, how do you specifically implement composition into stage four and five? And how do you introduce the concept of notation to your students? Because I think that some teachers find that a challenge or that we don't feel well equipped to teach composition, for whatever reason, um, how do you approach it in your classroom?

Kerry – Well, composition to us is creating, so we don't use the word composition. We tend to side of the kids. I want you to create this from this stimulus. So because they're used to that in other subjects, they used to other subjects saying here's a Here's some stimulus. Do something with that, you know? So I tend to talk to the students and say to them, Look, here is some elements I want you to write. I want you to create something that uses this, this, this, this and this and we give them a checkoff. And like I said, it comes back in the Stage four and five to those word banks because we're trying to teach them the terminology like fragmenting addition, subtraction, whatever the thing is that we're doing. So we tend to try and create composition, composition activities that more collaborative creative stimulus pieces, I suppose. And we also do a lot of playing of compositions. So, we do things like the year 10s are doing minimalism, for example, to play small group arrangements of tubular bells. Koyaanisqatsi. They'll do clapping music, and then they have to go and create their version of whatever we just played. So now apply the skills that you learned. Let's extract all the information we have. Here's our word bank. Go and use that. Make me something create me something. They'll play it for me. You know, play it for your team. Play it for your class, play it for whoever, whether it be outside, Year eight or outside banging on guitars. Let's go and play for them, you know. And so that's sort of how we deal with composition.

Alex – That's great, do your students, enjoy that process, Kerry?

Kerry –Very much so. It was interesting. When I first got to the school, I had the Year 11 music one team and the school had a room full of computers, a room full of keyboards. This rehearsal room and composition was always done at a computer, which did my head. I got to say because composition for me has always been done on an instrument. I've always sat down at an instrument or I've always used an instrument to compose. So I found that quite surprising. So when I, me being me, rocked into the year 11 class and gave them three pieces of stimulus and said, 'Here we go, here's three pieces of stimulus, create something from that.' And I kid you not, those kids stood there and had no idea what to do. They could not create something from it. They said, 'What do you mean?' And I said, Excuse me. 'What? What do you mean, what do I mean?' And I said, Well, that's a chord progression, and that's a rhythm, and that's a technique. Can you try and put them all together? And they went, What now? Yeah, now's good, and then it was.

But we're not in Music Room one, and I said, 'You have to be a music room one to do it?' and they went, 'Yeah, because that's where the computers are', and I just I sat back on the chair, and I just went 'You're kidding me'. So that whole culture of creating in that level has to start at year seven. So I find for me teaching them the content, like the rhythmic patterns in cells teaching them the actual words the nature of things like your call and response to your ostinato and stuff like that that helps them to give them something that they understand concrete that they can then put together. And I love creating; kids love to play and create. So it works well for us.

Alex – That's great, Kerry, how about you, Tahnee?

Tahnee – One of the first composing activities we did with students is just did parodies working with the lyrics. Oh, yeah. OK, you're going to use the same melody, same chords, and one of the year's seven classes. They come up. This was during Covid lockdown as well. So they chose 'Let it Go' from Frozen. And they wrote, I know, wrote a song, and instead of 'Let it Go' it was like, 'Hear us play, hear us play' because So it was pretty sweet. They're very excited. Yeah, um, that's brilliant. They love that they got right into it and they're got into groups too. Sometimes it's scary. I find, like, one on one. But if they've got a group, OK, you get you do this line, and then I'll write, I've got the next one bounce off each other. As far as like, the actual assessment goes, do a little portfolio, and it does start with OK, let's write an Ostinato in 4/4 let's write one in 3/4 OK, so now let's write four ostinatos. So let's do polyrhythms. OK, so let's look at what that looks like layered and then the next activity, uh, is OK. Now let's look at a pentatonic scale.

How can we create a melody from this scale? So right, you can only use these notes. So super scaffolded and directed questions, which makes it easier for them to address. Even to the point of like, so on this bar, you must use the third note, and the bar must be C or whatever it happens to be and then for the final activity. So they got, like, a pretty good basis and an idea of what they're doing, and we then choose like little rhymes. And one of them was '12345 once I caught a fish alive' and brought in a bit of literacy into the activity, so break these words down into the syllables. You now have to create a rhythm with this amount of syllables. And so that was the first step. And then the next step would be then, so now let's add a melody with that. Once we get to year 8, I start to look at maybe adding some chords, but I'll give them chords. They're like, OK, now let's add a melody on top of that. And, um, you know, I'm planning on doing a similar thing. Year 9 Music actually, I think I might do choose Australian Song. Then we're gonna look at a range, yeah so maybe each might choose something like, Waltzing Matilda. I now let's put in a different key, right now let's put a different melody on top, then getting to year 10 like you're saying, I love the idea of stimulus. And for me, I think film is like such a great stimulus. So pick a scene from a movie or giving them some short films going. OK, so let's create something that will enhance the mood for this thing.

Kerry –Oh, it should do. When you talk about Australian music which we do when studying small ensembles in year 9, I give them several songs. They have to put it into a different style with that particular Song, like reggae or a disco, which has a structure and a form. Yeah, so, therefore, they learn how to deconstruct chords and reconstruct them in the patterns that work incredibly well. The other idea about while you were talking with the Australian music one - I was going to ask you a question. Do you have kids ask you why do we not use those two notes on a pentatonic scale? Why do we not use number four and number seven?

Alex –That's a great question, Kerry.

Tahnee – They don't.

Kerry – Mine do! They ask, 'What's wrong with four and seven?' and I say to them, 'Well, they're not good notes together, they don't play well together. And so I play them, and they are like oh no.

Tahnee –I was reading through the questions before this, and I was like, Oh, which activities do your students like? And I was, like, thinking about that, because sometimes I have a, like, a good lesson and like, yeah, they do all the right things, and I'll finish the lesson. And I'm like, Oh, like, was that good? You know, you want to do similar activities like this. They might actually like - oh, no, that was actually a bit boring. And, uh, OK, it means you're lovely, compliant students. And, like, we got done what we needed to do, but yeah, I think that's like, Yeah, I do find my students are pretty. They're pretty accepting and, like, quite compliant in general. There. OK, well, she said so. So it must be, you know.

Alex – At least they're open Tahnee.

Kerry –Yeah. Being educated, it is. And they're the ones you want too. Because my kids are not, they're not short in making statements. So, for example, why do we not use those two notes. You know, they're always asking lots of questions. Why? Why are we doing this?

Well, because of this, I'm very good at answering the why questions these days.

Alex – And so. Let's talk about the mandatory topic, Australian music. Who are your favourite artists or pieces that you like to explore with your students?

Kerry – Where do you start where these questions it is? You know, I was listening to Classic FM yesterday while in the car because I like to listen to that at times and there was this piece by Iain Grandage, and I didn't record, I didn't write down the name of the work, but it was It used muted trumpet. And I thought I'm going to find out. I'm going to find that work because it was fantastic. So for me, though, we do The Rabbits, and the kids love that program. They do. So we do that one. We do Lior as well in year 10 and Edwards. We do Elena Kats Chernin, and we do Stanhope. So we do cover quite an extensive range of that music to the starting composers that they're going to meet when they're in music two. But we pick up Australian music throughout the rest of the 7 to 10 program. So we have key pieces that we've put in to like guitar. You know, we've got some guitar pieces by Australian artists. We've like, obviously Tommy Emmanuel, and people like that. We've got some keyboard works that we've tossed in there through with the year sevens and the year eight. We toss some things in the launchpad and the gaming. So particularly the gaming. This is some wonderful orchestra works with gaming, something you can do. So we've peppered it throughout the program. So there every year encounters Australian music in some way, shape or form. The latest edition is William Barton. We're doing a bit of work there, which is good, so we just need to find a didgeridoo player at the school.

Tahnee – One of my favourite artists also pieces is I like Paul Jarman. He's piece Warri and Yatungka was because I love the narrative accompanied by that piece of music and when I am Indigenous. I'm Ngemba. My people are from Brewarrina. So I'm very passionate about teaching indigenous perspective in schools in a respectful way. And I did have a year seven come up to me, and they like narrative, and it's an excellent way for them to connect with the content. So we'll listen to the peace, and we talk about the story and the yearning for each other, the love story. Then they focused. And then we break it down and give them super year seven. So super scaffolded sheet OK to me. You know, picture the other artists I'm listening to a lot is Thelma Plum. Well, lately, I think she's pretty cool. I love my, uh, because I love musical theatre—Big Tim Minchin fan.

Kerry – Of course not always appropriate, but very good, but fine. Yes, Miss Matilda Matilda content. But yeah.

Alex – Got one final question for you both. Why is music important to your students?

Kerry – If you would ask my kids why music's important to them, particularly the Concert Band kids, which is my 7 to 10 kids; they would say to you, particularly after last year, it's 'what makes them breathe'. It's what makes them believe it's what makes them feel like they belong and they're alive. And I think last year, in particular, I watched my year 9, 10 and 11 students stop breathing. They stopped living; uh, they struggled. Our kids struggled with no rehearsals online. I mean, we gave them all sorts of things that were totally different, and they all came, and they all complied because they were desperate to play and desperate to sing. And my vocal team, who I had for the first time this week, all the first thing they said to me after they sang the first song, they're saying one of them said like there was dead silence. One of them said, 'I'm finally alive' that was one of the year 10 kids, and my heart nearly broke. I just thought, Oh, poor, kids. But for them, I have this little social subculture, and it's all about music for them, and their world revolves around that block and around that cola and around that area. And when it was taken from them, it ceased to exist for them, the vibrancy of what goes on in their lives, they stopped breathing. So that's how important music is to the kids in our department and the kids we see that come through our block, which is just of the best things in the world to watch it.

Alex – How bout you Tahnee. Why is music important to your students?

Tahnee – It's a safe place for our students, as a CAPA department in general. Wellbeing is probably at the forefront for us. We do have those students who excel. But most importantly, music just provides a very safe place where they could be themselves. And, you know, they might just play like a melody in an ensemble piece, like, you know, one finger-like technique. Maybe not like great whatever. But it doesn't matter. It's just about being a part of that community and being there with their friends and feeling safe in a part of the group, and I think I think it's probably a little bit of escapism as well. We are so isolated here in Broken Hill, so it definitely, yeah, I guess it could be pretty transformative. I've felt that. I'm from the northern rivers where it's green and lush, and there are music and dance everywhere, and here there's not quite as much. When they come to school, there is always that place in those two music rooms where they can go and yeah have some peace. And this, yeah, safe place.

Kerry – I think it's like that in so many schools. You know, there's not one school I've taught in that that does not exist. The music department is like this Garden of Eden in the middle of of these schools. It's fascinating to see how music departments can draw things out of kids; you know, kids come to us. Some kids come to us because they want somebody to find stuff in them. They want us to find magic in you, you know, and that's for all those music teachers out there, and I'm sure they will all agree with Me. That's why we do what we do. That's why we stayed until 6:30 at night. And that's why we're up at 6:30 in the morning and with the school. And that's why we're running the musical. And that's why we're doing all those things. Because to watch that one kid and that light bulb go off, and they just have that moment of magic. And they were a rock star, you know, it's just it's fun. Wonderful. It's the best job in the world.

Alex –Thanks so much for talking with us today and for sharing your ideas about what you teach at your respective schools. I'm sure that the listeners will have many new ideas to take back to their classroom. But most of all, I think you've pinpointed why music is essential to our students, and that's why we do what we do. So thanks, Kerry. Thanks, Tahnee. Catch you next time.

Jackie –This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts Curriculum Team Secondary Learners Educational Standards Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining the Statewide Staff Room as a source of all truths regarding curriculum or email our curriculum advisor Cathryn Ricketts Horvat using the email address The music for this podcast was composed by Alex Manton and audio production by Jason King.


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