Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins
Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins. I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the NSW Department of Education's Creative Arts curriculum team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a creative arts curriculum adviser and music subject matter expert.

Dominique

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman and in a role of Aboriginal education adviser with the Department of Education.

Today, we are lucky enough to be joined by Barkindji Song Woman, Nancy Bates, to discuss her beautiful song 'I Belong as I Walk on My Country'. Nancy is known for touring with renowned song man, Uncle Archie Roach, and is committed to writing music that means something to the world as she collaborates across communities.

Jackie

Nancy's song, 'I Belong as I Walk On My Country' is the first song to be studied in the Stage 4 unit, ‘Bigger Than The Song’ and today we will discuss the story, permissions and protocols for teachers and students to consider when engaging with this beautiful song.

Dominique

So Yiradhu marang Nancy, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us today.

Nancy Bates

Thank you for having me. What a wonderful, uh, introduction and what a wonderful thing for us to yarn about today.

Jackie

We are very excited to talk to you about your song today, but before we get into that, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and the role that music has played in your life?

Nancy

Yeah, I think I can tell you that I'm now a grandmother and a song woman. I found that I could write music in my, early thirties and had this beautiful opportunity, through music to meet Uncle Archie Roach, at a NAIDOC ball here in South Australia where I live, I live on Kaurna Country, so I'm about 500 kilometres away from home. I am Barkindji. The Darling River is my Country. I grew up on my grandmother's Country, Wilyakali Country in Broken Hill, but I've been living on Kaurna Country for about 20 years down here, and this is where I found my inner song and a way to deal with some of the hard things that I'd grown up with and some of the things that I was dealing with in life. And as I was growing and learning, I picked up the guitar and found that music is my healing and a big, largely now part of my identity as a song woman. And has taken me all across the world, across communities, and led me to working with the great song man, Uncle Archie Roach for four years, which was just an extraordinary time in my life.

So that's a little bit about me. A Nanna to one beautiful baby girl, Bailey Faye. I have, listeners won't be able to see this, but I have a very large gap of my teeth, and my granddaughter has the same gap and I'm very proud of that. So that's a family trait, it's a Bates family trait, and she's got it so,

you know, I'm concentrating on intergenerational song work, and this song is an example of, you know, creating music that connects us to our identity and to the Country that we all belong to.

Jackie

Yeah, that's amazing and thank you for sharing, that's beautiful. We've been working really closely with you to include your song, 'I Belong As I Walk on My Country' in this unit of work, and I was wondering if you could tell us why you're happy for us to use your song and why you're happy for your song to be included in this Stage 4 program that's titled ‘Bigger Than the Song’.

Nancy

Having my song included amongst the other songs that you are sharing and gifting to children, I actually feel very emotional about it because, you know, I didn't imagine myself to become the song woman that I am and to write songs that would travel across communities. And I had a really hard, um, upbringing and it meant that music found me late in life, you know?

So for me, the importance of music is, you know, our kids need access to music. The fact that I'm able to share Barkindji Language in this song, sing about Country, write about Country. It's a very simplistic song, but the purpose behind the song is big. It's huge. It's a spiritual purpose for us to connect, to feel that pride. You know, every child, every young person in this Country, and we talk about our kids first, you know, should be holding their head high and walking this Country proud to be traditional owners and custodians of this land that we've been here for over 2,600 generations, still walking that Country. So, this is like also what's really, important about this sharing is that we know through colonisation that we've lost 90% of our traditional song practice. And so, every time an Indigenous person, a First Nations person creates music, it's important to the revival and the continuance of the songs that we still have and the songs that we've created.

All the songs that have been made post colonisation that really tell our history, all of our song practice is really important. In fact, it's absolutely essential to every young person, and we want all Australian children to grow up and feel that sense of love and connection and belonging to this land. We want to do that in partnership and so this relationship between First Nations people, Indigenous people, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in this country and song – it's an offering and a gift and an invitation, and it's a way that we can all join our hands and our hearts and our minds to think about Country and to see ourselves in the context of Country. And that means that we are interconnected and that we are all related.

Dominique

That's so beautiful, Nancy and that really resonates. The first time I heard your song, well, I'll start by saying it's one of my favourite songs ever. Truly. Like when I listen to it, immediately, I felt a really deep connection to it, and it's so soothing and calming as well. And so whenever I need a moment, I listen to your song, to this song and it's so powerful and we've played it for our children as well, our two daughters, and they love it and they start singing along with it so I think everything you just shared was so powerful and so beautiful, and it really is. You know it's a really powerful song so thank you.

But as we go through it, I was just wondering if you could talk, it was a commissioned piece? Am I correct in saying that? Yep. Could you tell us a little bit about that process? What was that like, and I guess the cultural significance of filming and recording it on Country for you?

Nancy

So, you know, I'm living off Country, so when I'm 500 kilometres away from home, a lot, most of the time, and so the invitation came from the Kaurna community to write a song to accompany a Welcome to Country video resource for the city of Port Adelaide Enfield Council, who do have a really, ambitious and, large reconciliation kind of program and they do a lot of work in that area and have a close connection to the Aboriginal Community down in the Port Adelaide, Enfield area.

So, I got this call, and it was just like, ‘Hey, we're doing this resource, we'd really like a song to accompany the resource’. So, I, I was like, well, this is like, what an incredible invitation to be living on somebody else's Country and to be invited in by the Kaurna community to write these songs. There were some elders, in particular who invited me and so then there was the responsibility, because I was like, oh my goodness, I have to write the best song that I've ever written in my life because I really want to honour this Country because Kaurna Country to me is my healing place. It's the place I've grown into to become a grandmother. Not that I don't have, like I go home as regularly as possible, but this place here has given me everything I didn't know I had, I could have, and I've become everything that I never knew I would be on this Country.

So I wanted this song, really show my love and respect for Kaurna Miyurna, the Kaurna people, and that means this Kaurna Yarta, this land here and the interconnectedness, so it took a while to start thinking about how, so song starts with picking those two notes that you'll hear. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's the average speed of your heartbeat when you are walking on Country.

So I started with that thinking about, you know, what is my body doing? What is my heart saying? To walk on our Country with everything that has happened, to share this land here. It is incredible. We are still here. We are still walking our land. We haven't gone anywhere, you know? So that invitation in and then the beginning, it began with heart, my love, my empathy, my connection to this place as a visitor. I'm a visitor here, I'm a guest. And haven't I been taken care of? I tell you I have. I've raised my daughter here. Now I have a granddaughter here. You know, my daughter found love here. It's a beautiful thing to think about, where does this song begin? And it begins with a heartbeat. And then just the visualisation of walking Country, of being connected that's all it takes, for us to connect is just to be in that place.

To be quiet and silent and present. I think that's what the song brings us is to that groundedness. The heartbeat, the intention to walk Country. What do I need to take in? What do I need to let go? What's the purpose of me walking Country today?

Dominique

That's so beautiful, and I think that's really evident and has been really conveyed in the production of the song. And can you talk to us about the sound of the waves? Was that a purposeful choice as well as the heartbeat was a purposeful choice, like that idea of, honouring the spirit of place?

Nancy

No, it, it was just, it's just happened. You know, it's, evidence that Country gives us song, not the other way around. So it was just a matter of being on Country, the song coming through Country and you don't even realise that that water is just lapping in the background and you are connecting, you are locked into the rhythm of the water of the land, and you don't even know it.

There's so much going on subconsciously when you practice song through a deep connection with Country and you keep learning in that way so you only realise afterwards when you look back at that, and you hear that and you, you realise that actually the whole time Country was holding that song and that song belongs to Country. It doesn't belong to me or anybody else. It doesn't belong to, it belongs to Country and therefore we belong to it. You know, it's that sort of...it's evidence of song lines, you know the way that Country holds song. Yeah.

Dominique

That's beautiful. And it kind of leads perfectly into, I guess, what it means to Acknowledge Country as well. What is the significance of Acknowledging Country for you?

Nancy

Well it's very deep to acknowledge Country because you have to sit and think about okay, this place, and this history, and the stories here, and who am I and why am I alive and how am I alive and how do I connect to all these things I can see and feel around me? What is the purpose of my existence? What will I do with this life? All of that begins with an Acknowledgement that you live and breathe and exist, and you exist through the context of Country. You have come from the land, you will return to the land. Taking that moment to Acknowledge. And whose place is this and who are the people that are taking care of this place and what is their name? What is their name in their Language? Whose land am I walking on? I should be proud as an Australian to know wherever I am on this great land that we still know the name of the people who take care of that land, who are the custodians. So, Acknowledgement is simple but profound.

Dominique

Yeah. Absolutely. It really is. And you mentioned Language there and how important, you know, continuing our Language is, and a section of your song is in Language. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what that process was connecting with your mob, with the community to be able to use that Language and bring it to life?

Nancy

Well, you know when I was saying before that 90% of our song practices that have been, impacted by, negatively by colonisation. We've lost a lot. You know, when we talk about Language, we're also talking about history. So, there was a time when the Australian government had policies, deliberate policies to, it was called assimilation. The thought was by the Australian government and society, largely at that time, because we had the White Australia policy, the government wanted to see Australia that was white and integrated white culture, so that English language and that meant that, and there was no value for First Nation Languages. Not the 500 languages in existence for over 2,600 generations.

It was important at that time in society for everyone to be the same and to hold the same values and to speak the one Language and to all look the same. And so, when you are also at that time getting you know, Aboriginal people who are having children like for myself, but the audience can't see, but I'm a fair-skinned Aboriginal person. Being born with fair-skinned meant that people would say, well, we could just take this child away from their community and put them into white society and then as long as they don't learn their Language or their culture or know who their family is, then they'll just be like white people and eventually we won't have any Aboriginal people at all. And this is really dangerous, right? The impact of that was that our old people were forbidden from using their Language. And so when you look at my, so I'm Nancy Bates, and so I'm almost 50 years of age, but I've grown up without my dad and his generation being able to speak Language, and grown up with, very little Language being spoken by my grandparents and great grandparents.

But now, with this resurgence of pride and bringing this back and holding onto this and making it strong again, Language. Now this Language is being taught in schools back home. We have Language nests in New South Wales, we've got our kids, we're getting our kids, our Country, getting all our kids from our communities, and we're bringing that Language back because we still do have Language speakers. We can do this work.

And so, part of that is me being invited back in to learn Language, with Language speakers and with kids now who are learning it. So, you know, now my granddaughter is growing up with Language and being able to bridge that gap in my own family. And so, one of the most powerful things I found about reclaiming Languages, even if you haven't grown up with it, even if I'm now 50 years old and I'm singing in my Language for the first time. When I sing in my Language, it's as if it was never left. It's never gone from me. It was never disconnected from me. When you sing in your Language, your voice changes. Something shifts on a very deep spiritual level in everything you are and everything you are singing about. So with all of that history in mind, when I sing in Language, there are so many layers and there's so much richness and depth in how I feel about that moment and in that song, and when we're singing together and when that song comes to that big, big, big crescendo at the end. What it has taken for me to be here and to be able to sing those words, it's phenomenal.

Dominique

It really is and it's so beautiful to hear that, you know, you are continuing that revitalisation and the reclamation of Language in your own family as well. It's so powerful to think of what's to come as well. And you've just mentioned a little bit about cultural protocols. So how do they, more broadly guide your work as a Barkindji woman, in your community, and then also when you visit others, how do you ensure that you are respectfully following those protocols?

Nancy

Hmm. Well, the first thing is, listening is the biggest for me in terms of cultural protocol. So first you go, and you're going to listen and to be invited in. I'm really big about not asking questions or as very few questions as possible. Just listen and wait for the information to come. In terms of, cultural protocols around Language, it's checking things with Language speakers for correct pronunciation. I think that's really, really important, and to ensure that you've got that kind of, I guess community giving you the nod and giving permission that this is the right way to do things.

And I think the other thing too about cultural protocols is going into work. You always need a sort of whole of community approach to how you connect. So how can I come in and work with children in our community? How can I work intergenerationally in my song practice to ensure that, the Elders are linked in with the young people and everyone in between?

How do you give as much opportunity for the song to be sung by your community or across communities as well? Sharing is a really big part and things are ready to share when everyone's happy with how things are being sung and what is being sung about, and people feel excited about sharing as well.

So, this song has been sung so much back home, and you know, across, I know that it's been sung by hundreds of kids in New South Wales as well and continues to just travel and grow. It's been sung so many times now, so the permission often when I get sort of like an email or someone calls me and says, ‘hey, we've heard the song ’I Belong’, and we'd really like to have it for our school or could we do something together?’ or ‘I really love this song’ – there's always, you know, a conversation about how that, how it can be used. So each time the song is used, there's always a conversation about how and another agreement, so, we continue to agree on how the song will be sung and I guess in that way, if things need to change or grow or adapt, we can also do that as we travel through communities. That's also a big part of like Songlines protocol. So these Songlines, which have connected our communities for thousands of years. So, Songlines are big, big long songs that belong to, landscapes and belong to communities. So imagine a big song with verses and choruses and all bits and pieces, but a part belonging to communities and so the songs’ connected when you get together.

Sharing songs across communities takes a conversation about making sure that it's still right and it's good and it's the right time to use it and it's appropriate. You know, and that we're singing it the right time and we're doing it in the right way, and that way when you get it right, those protocols, really do guide the continuance of that song practice. So through that consultation and through that, following those protocols, then you can do more and more work. And often the relationships get stronger between communities.

Jackie

Thanks so much for that, Nancy, and I guess it extending on that, by including this song in our resource, ‘Bigger Than The Song’, it is going to go across all of New South Wales, and students across New South Wales, will be studying this song within their music classrooms which is really exciting. And a big part of the new music syllabus is around protocols and ethical choices and so, I guess specifically now thinking about your song being used in the classroom, and how it can be used in the classroom, what sort of protocols or ethical choices would you want students and teachers to consider when listening to, performing or even creating music inspired by your work, or the work of other Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artists?

Nancy

Yeah, I think protocol one-on-one, the Acknowledgement. So making sure that before the song starts and that there is an, at least an Acknowledgement, or where appropriate, a Welcome to Country, so that it sets the scene for the song itself. And also that you know, that people are listening and paying that respect.

Sometimes, like I, you know, I perform in front of large audiences and just getting things to just come down and helping the listeners to be grounded in that space and of course an Acknowledgement is a beautiful way to do that. I also would expect that people performing the song, that there is respect enough for the song to quieten yourself down and be in that space. Sometimes like, you know, when you're having fun with your mates and you know you've got to sing a song and like, we get it on the band. Like bands, we're terrible, bands are terrible for it. We get on stage together and we want to start having a bit of fun. And then there's a moment where we've got to switch and go, well, this is the song now, and when it's song time, we were there as a team, as a band, and I think, I'd like to think students could think of themselves as a large band.

And there are band protocols around when it's time to perform. There is a moment where we just take a breath and we know what we need to do, and we know why we need to do it, and we do it with heart, and we do it to the best of our ability to honour the song and to honour each other. So that's what I would hope that students could also support each other in singing this song and feel, just feel that pride. Also, maybe you are a non-Indigenous person, a non-First Nations, a non-Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander person. Know that this is about you showing respect and supporting the First Nations students. You might have students that you're singing with who are Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, identify as First Nations or Indigenous. Those terms all mean the same thing, but we use them across communities in different ways. You know, by you showing that respect, you're also showing respect to those students as well, and to their culture and acknowledging that this is a really in special, special moment. And if we're paying that respect, if someone's not being respectful, call 'em out. Yeah, that's what I would ask.

Jackie

Thank you so much for that. And absolutely if someone's not being respectful, call it out. I think that's really important. Like, kids can do that as well as their teachers pulling them into line. So that's fantastic. Specifically then, what permissions are you giving, I guess, if any, to New South Wales teachers and students when it comes to learning and performing your song? For example, can it be performed, outside of the classroom or, arranged, transposed, and could it be sung in Language if using the Language in the song if local protocols are followed?

Nancy

Let's start with that last one because that's already happening. I've been working on, a, an international Indigenous country music showcase called Black Country, and we all sing that song at, the end together and so the last showcase that we had, we had a conversation amongst the First Nations performers that they wanted to take the song and use it as a Welcome to Country or Acknowledgement by incorporating their Language at the end.

And so, we had that conversation so, yes, this is how Songlines get reconnected by sharing Language, taking a song, and, you know, weaving our own Language into it – that would just be wonderful and wow. Yes. Can you transpose it? Of course you must! Like, I've got a pretty deep voice when I sing, which is like, which is weird because I'm really short and people, when I sing, people are like, ‘wow she's got a deep voice’.

And here's a little, this is a true story. I found my daughter's diary when she was 10, and she wrote in there, everyone says, my mum is a great singer, but I think she just sounds like a man. So, with that in mind, have a laugh about that one. Yes. If you need to take it up higher or lower, or anywhere in between, transpose away, transposing is like my life. I love it. So do I, can you sing it? Yes. It's not mine. It literally, ‘I Belong’ means that we belong to this song. Anybody who wants to just be careful though, because once you sing this song, you do belong. And that comes with a responsibility. Know that there's a responsibility when you share this song. So what comes with it? What's expectation of me is to you, is that.. that you understand that with the knowledge of song and with the responsibility of passing it on, that is a responsibility that you need to take very seriously.

And I don't mean like you have to be all serious about it, but there just has to be a like, I care about this song. I'm passing this song on. Because you know what? If there's children out there that are going to sing this song, and then your grandchildren are singing that song, do you know how happy I will be when I'm an ancestor? I'll just be looking down and going, this is fantastic, and here's how I continue my life and the impact of my life, just the way Uncle Archie Roach has for all of us that this song could travel another seven generations would make me so happy.

Jackie

I'm a bit lost for words at the moment. I'm just choking back my own emotions. Amazing. Beautiful. Thank you. And wow, teachers, what great permission you've just received to do what you need to do with this song and get it out there.

Nancy

I'm waiting for the punk version. I'm waiting for the metal version. There's going to be a hip hop version, like mix it, like let's go for it. Let's, let's see, let's see what can happen to ‘I Belong’!

Jackie

That leads really nicely into the next question because we do have a lesson in our unit where students are going to work on writing a third verse for the song from their own voice about the Country that they are on, so having that connection to their own Country. What do you think is important for them to reflect on when they're doing this?

Nancy

I would like to think of themselves at the age of 50 as grandparents and think about when they become a grandparent. What do they want to see for Country between now and the time that they become a grandparent? What does Country need? Because when we see ourselves as part of Country and we ask what Country needs and what do I need to do for Country, you also answer the question of: ‘who am I?’ ‘What is my life and what does my life mean and what do I need?’ So when you think about caring for Country, you think about caring for yourself. And I'm going to say this, right? I'm going to say this straight to you young people listening and to teachers out there, we know our young people are up against it. There's never been a generation that have been up against what they're up against in terms of what's happening to Country, what has happened to Country, and what needs to be done for us all to heal this.

And so, the now this generation, your generation, when I ask you this question around reflecting on yourself as grandparents, the time between now and when you become my age and possibly grandparents at that stage, we need to change so much. There is so much healing that we need to support your young people with. Part of writing this song is me acknowledging what your young people are up against, and I'm going to do everything I can, everything I can, while I'm here to try and make it better for you, to make it better for your grandkids. That's what I want to leave you with. Think about that. Think about being an old person and the life that you need to lead for us to be able to sit there in 30, 40, 50 years' time and say this healing is happening.

Dominique

That's really powerful messaging and a really good shift in their perspective as well. So thank you for sharing that. We wanted to now kind of have a yarn around, I guess, what was school music like for you growing up? Do you remember learning any songs by any Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander artists? And then, I guess, how important is it now that our kids are having that opportunity?

Nancy

Yeah, there wasn't, like, I grew up in the eighties, lots of, um, terrible pop music, no I shouldn't say that. Awesome great! I grew up in the eighties and so, as a kid that I was really interested in music and learnt the recorder. I remember, we had the songbooks that used to come out every year. I don't remember seeing any First Nations music in there. I mean, I grew up around like family members. We had family members. My mum's non-indigenous, but she, was also into music and stuff like that. But no, the visibility was pretty low. And then like mid-eighties though, you've got kind of like the emergence of like ‘Coloured Stone’ and there's, this, you're starting to see some, I remember, you know, towards the end of schooling, you've got ‘Yothu Yindi’ coming out, but there's just like the visibility's like really, really low. In music and having opportunities to just, you just didn't see it up and I mean, of course, in your own communities and your own families, but out in the mainstream, like definitely the access to First Nations music wasn't there. We weren't, you know, we weren't learning it.

I do remember once maybe having, we had a Adnyamathanha Song Man come and visit. I remember he was ah, I can't remember his name. No, maybe it was Uncle Buck Mackenzie who came and did, a song. So Adnyamathanha people from the Flinders Rangers in South Australia for those who don't know, beautiful, beautiful people. And singing a song about, catching kangaroo and getting a big, big fat belly because you're so full from this gorgeous wild tucker, wild meat. But that was just like once I remember in my childhood. Yeah, we didn't get a lot at all and which is a big reason why I'm always out and about at school doing, you know, doing music and connecting and doing lots of songwriting with kids and sharing what I can.

Dominique

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Onto the, I mean, I feel like a lot of this conversation's been so powerful and so heavy, like your messaging has been really beautiful, but this is a big question. So what does it mean for you to hold space here and raise your voice for mob, especially for those younger generations?

Nancy

What is it like to hold space? It's the most.. What's the word? Like, it's the deepest responsibility I've ever felt to hold space. To hold space through this song, to hold song space, to bring people into this space, to create a culturally safe space, which is what I try and do everywhere I go with everything that I do. Don't always get it right. I'm still learning. You're always learning, you know, and they always, you're pivoting and adapting. I'm still learning. I'm getting older. It's getting harder. What is it like? It’s hard, but then when you actually get to create that space and young people or other song people, you know, can step into this space and just, we find each other and we share song, and we share stories and we share, like we have big belly aching laughs and we, you know, we write silly songs, we write deep songs and everything in between and we share who we are in that safety is like this sort of Indigenous love and pride that is bigger than anything that you can feel. It's bigger than you. It's so, such an, it's like the ancestors are holding you. I feel like it's like these layers, right? The ancestors hold us and then we've got to create spaces for each other on this planet.

Within that, within that kind of beautiful, you know, that beautiful circle that the ancestors are around us. It means that I try and be wise. I'm trying to lean into wisdom and do things that feel right and wise, and I try and do what is best and what should be done, what is right to be done as well in this space and that means like a lot of listening, deep listening. Again, it comes back to holding spaces it’s just, it's not about people coming in and just sitting down and listening to you. For me, holding space is creating a space where others can be listened to deeply. So that's a big responsibility. And, but it's like, and also it can be really fun, like when we have a space together and we have a really deadly time and we go away and we're overflowing with love and laughter and hope and song. You know, that life's hard, but we're able to help each other out. It's like, it's just the bestest feeling in the whole world.

Dominique

I love that. Absolutely. And our final question for you today is how do you believe schools or teachers, can best support and amplify the voices of our Aboriginal artists and communities?

Nancy

Yeah, how, how can teachers do that? Teachers have different, you know, like, this is one thing teachers, we need to acknowledge that this is a problem that we know that over 90% of Australians don't have a friendship, a relationship, an experience of that type of depth with, you know, friendship with a First Nations Aboriginal Torres Strait indigenous person. And so the, one of the best ways for us to say like, I think I just want to call this out straight away for teachers like this is anti-racism work. That's what this is. This song, this work, the interrogation of this song, connecting first, why are you doing this? For me, I'm doing this for the combat racism. I'm doing this so that my granddaughter can come to school and not face the same things that my grandfather that her grandfather did. And her grandmother and her great-grandparents. I want to call this out really seriously to you teachers, and I know I'm, you know, I'm a pretty light-hearted person when you get to know me, but when we're talking about the education of our kids and our kids sitting in your classroom. Since the referendum, and the outcome of that, our kids are up against what is an inconceivable amount of racism in our schools and so are your Aboriginal people and staff. Your Aboriginal education workforce, your staff, the leadership. You know, we are, it has got worse. So much worse. It was unbearable before. So every school teacher listening to this, this isn't about a nice song to sing. This is about the life of our children within, that are in your hands on a daily basis. And that school can be the place that harms our kids the most. I cannot breathe thinking about that for my granddaughter. So when you take this song and when you engage First Nations artists and you look at this, know that this is consciously about combating racism in your lifetime with what you have. The privilege and the power that you hold as a teacher over our kids can change their lives. You hold that power.

I want you to know that every time you do this work, leaning into this work, being prepared to listen, being prepared to learn. Be prepared to know that you will make mistakes. Maybe if your hearts can just break. This is what Uncle Archie Roach used to say to audiences night after night. If your heart can break, then you're ready to educate First Nations kids. Then we can walk together. When your heart breaks with ours, we can walk together. Be as empathic. Feel this. Know the history, educate. Make sure when you are walking into that classroom space, that you're continually doing your work, that you know the history, the right history, the factual history.

Those kids are not there to educate the rest of your students in that class either. Don't single them out. Don't put it on them. Educate yourself. Go and find the resources. We have so many teaching resources. Narragunnawali, that site for Reconciliation Australia has so much there. You know, lay the foundations yourself and keep reinforcing them. And take, you know, every opportunity you can to continue your learning and professional development. Prioritise it and yeah, get around cultural safety, get around what that means to bring into the classroom before you tackle anything like this song ‘I Belong’.

Jackie

Thank you so much, for that very powerful message, Nancy. It is so very important, really important work and, you're right in that teachers might get it wrong along the way, but it's really very important, I think, that they start and start trying. Dominique, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

Dominique

Just thank you so much. It’s been incredible to sit in this space and listen to you. And everything you say just rings so true. I got very emotional just then because it's true. It's what we're facing. It's what our kids are facing. And to hear it from other mob as well, you know you're not alone, and there's a long way to go, and hopefully this is, steps for our society to get it right. So, thank you for sharing. Truly.

Nancy

Yeah, we have this power. We are at a moment where we just cannot look away. And if right now, if we can just, if we can be strong, stronger than we were before, then I feel like I can hold onto hope, like I can really hold it, not because I'm supposed to have it, or it's a cultural obligation, but that it actually exists.

Jackie

Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today, Nancy. Thank you for giving us the permissions to sing and have this song in our resources and share it across classrooms across New South Wales and for the story and the thinking that needs to go behind it, it's so very important and we are very grateful for your time today and also, for your sharing.

Nancy

Sing it loud. Sing it proud. I can't wait to see where this goes.

 Jane

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt at creativerrts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

I would like to acknowledge the beautiful Yidiki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts adviser, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts Curriculum Team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Adviser and Music subject matter expert.

Dominique

And I'm Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman, in my role of Aboriginal Education Adviser with the Department of Education. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by award-winning Gumbaynggirr, and Yamatji and Noongar clans singer and songwriter Emma Donovan.

Emma has been touring the country for over 20 years performing soulful songs and sharing powerful stories with audiences around the globe. She regularly performs songs in  Gumbaynggirr and Noongar traditional Languages and shares stories to provide her audiences with an understanding of Country and community.

Jackie

Emma has given permissions for her songs, ‘Mob March’ and ‘Warrell Creek Song’ to be included for study in the Stage 4 Unit, Bigger than the song. And today we'll discuss with her the stories, collaborations, permissions, and protocols for teachers and students to consider when engaging with her music.

Dominique

So, Yiradhu Marang Emma, gawambanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us today.

Emma Donovan

Nah. Thank you. Thanks for having us. What an awesome podcast to be involved in, you know, there's been some really good relationships and connections to make this happen, you know, and we'll yarn a lot more about that. But, yeah, I want to you know, come to you’s and say that I'm visiting on Dharug Land, you know, and most of my music has been, you know, written, recorded down in Wurundjeri Country in Naarm, more recent, you know. So yeah, just acknowledgement to both, you know, them, beautiful lands and yeah. I'm here in Western Sydney actually, where, most of my family is, you know, connected up through the mid north coast, but mostly where I was brought up. Yeah.

Jackie

Oh, thank you. It's really great to have you here with us today. Can we start the podcast today by you telling us a little bit about yourself and the role that music has played in your life?

Emma

Ah. I always tell people, you know, music got me out of a little bit of trouble, I reckon when I was young. I like to say that I was a good daughter, a family member growing up, going to school and doing all the little things. But, you know, it kind of always kept me on track, you know, and then more so songwriting for myself is, um, something I just hold so dear because it really does keep me, you know, sane and you know, all through my journeys of my life, I find myself always just going back to, to write, to continually heal, you know, for myself.

I'm a Mum of two little girls, so, you know, song writing's been around for such a long time, my grandparents sang, something that I, you know, want to leave and, and do for my family, for my two little ones. So, I take it very, you know, serious, especially because, most of my songwriting and storytelling comes from my family, which is a continuation of, you know, all the generations that we've told as Aboriginal People.

So yeah, that's a little bit about myself. I just, I love music.

I love to sing. I grew up very musical family, so, where it's kind of led me has been just, you know, I'm always, you know, so humbled, I guess, to kind of be in this industry and, continue sharing song and, and story.

Jackie

I wonder if, thinking back to when you were at school, do you remember learning any songs by Aboriginal artists at school?

Emma

I remember there was a couple of songs in Language, but it was never clear to me what Languages they were. You know, there was some songs and and just that floated around that had Language and I think there was some kind of, background of it being an Aboriginal song or an Indigenous song, but it wasn't clear what that song was. Um, it's a song that I later learned probably you know, through a band called Tiddas. It's kind of a little bit familiar now, but yeah, it's nothing like, the songs and the Language that's expressed today and you know, out there today.

Dominique

Absolutely. And I think that's what we're trying to really ensure happens in our schools as well, is that it's happening more and it's becoming part of the everyday conversation as well. It shouldn't be a, a shock that, we're now looking at an Aboriginal artist it should be what we do all the time anyway. And thank you to you that in this unit students will be learning the song ‘Mob march.’ So we'd just like to ask what role has music played in black activism, and who are some artists that have inspired you within this space?

Emma

So I mean, the artists that inspire me always have been, you know, our Aboriginal and songmen and women, and you know, a lot of people know my relationship with, some of the members of the Black Arm Band where I felt like I was in a band where I was in a longer, a lot more younger generation. So there was older people like, you know, George Burarrwanga from Warumpi Band and there was the late Uncle Arch and Aunty Ruby. I remember the first time I ever was in a band and played, you know, alongside, um, these artists. The first thing that came to my mind, 'cause I was ringing my dad and I was saying, ‘Dad, I'm here with, you know, I'm in the same room as Bart Willoughby, bands from like, No Fixed Address then Coloured Stone.’

Immediately I was just like, you know, these were the songs and these were the people that my father, you know, I grew up on all different kinds of music, but my father shared a lot of the black fella music for me. And so they were like people, like Uncle Bart Willoughby and Coloured Stone and stuff, so, they were like my very young influences. As I got older, I lent right into that, especially coming up in music industry, keeping myself around, Community and, you know, wanting to be a, a singer songwriter myself. That's when I was heavily listening then to our old people and still do today, and also find myself now just, you know, sometimes the genres or the things don't match, like the styles for me 'cause I'm a bit older now, but I'm just so inspired about the actually telling of the story that young Indigenous mob are writing. I'm just so, I'm so curious about what they wanna say, as Aboriginal mob, uh, Indigenous people from here, it is activism. It's a way of sharing, important stories. And so, a lot of that is in, you know, our music regardless of anything. You know, if you're a black fella, black music is black music, I think we just need to sum that up. If you identify as Aboriginal, we are music no matter what genre, no matter what you're saying is black music, and that's the biggest thing that I know.

It's funny that, you know, when you were telling the intro, then we're talking about, there's so many connections to songs and, you know, stories. I was travelling with, Jessie Lloyd, who's the daughter of Uncle Joey Geia, you know, who wrote the amazing song ‘Yil Lull', but I was on Mission Songs tour with her and yarning with her all the time about, you know, stories and the way we share our songs and the biggest line I learned from her was ‘big yarn, small song’. So, we're gonna get a lot of that today. Yeah.

Dominique

I love that. And we've had some yarns with Jessie Lloyd as well recently, which has been incredible as well.

Emma

I'm inspired by her, Jessie's amazing. I just think what she does and you know, connecting everyone. And sharing. Anyway, we'll get into that later.

Dominique

Yeah, you mentioned in that, you know, the stories behind the songs and how there's, they're the powerful thing as well, right? So, could you talk to us about the story behind ‘Mob March’?

Emma

It was a song written a while back now, so I'm just like, wow. I wrote that with the Putbacks. Lyrically, I always wanted to write a song about Marching. You know, I'm inspired by, I've been singing and I, you know, was listening to, you know, heavily always listening to, you know, Mavis Staples. She's got that song, ‘Freedom Highway’, you know, with the Staple Singers. So, I was always, I was always putting myself there, going I wanna write a song about marching. And also, I've seen a lot of things about Black History Month, with the mob in New Orleans, how these mob just go to the streets. They just march and they, you know, big songs, and I always, you know, wanted to write a song about just taken to the streets, but also how proud I am of mob showing up for us, and not just black fellas, all our allies, all our, you know, people that don't identify as Aboriginal in this Country, that we need that to strengthen that relationship always. You know, you see where it's, you know, evident or obvious when these people are walking alongside us. And if you've ever been in a march, it's amazing feeling. I was marching this year, best time my life this year. I felt like, wow, NAIDOC, I'm, you know, I was marching and just the feeling of it, you know, I wanted to write it.

So, yeah, that our mob we've been doing when we trying to get that message. And I think the other thing too is, on these platforms, like, you know, having podcasts, having social media and all of that. You know, we're not doing it alone anymore in Communities when there's injustices in places like Yuendumu or any remote part of Australia, our mob know how to, they know how to show up in big cities now. It's not, we're not sitting quiet anymore and yeah, I needed to write ‘Mob March.’

Dominique

Absolutely. And that is, it's so powerful, and you mentioned then having, having those allies with us and, and march with us. How do you feel when, and what's the impact of having, you know, allies sing slogans along with us? Like always was, always will be and other chants that, that are included in your song, how, what's the impact of that?

Emma

I just always, you know, hoping for, I suppose when I've, what I've got in mind at the time when I'm writing tunes like that is that just for everyone to connect black and white and mostly our mob, to strengthen our mob, you know, that they can have a song like that that will be around, you know, for them you know, always have that, connect and help strengthen their identity as, you know, as Aboriginal People.

Jackie

The other song that is in this unit of work, that students will also be listening to is the ‘Warrell Creek’ song, and they're going to compare some different versions of you singing that song. Can you tell us a bit about your personal connection to that song and what it means to you?

Emma

‘Warrell Creek’ wasn't a song I grew up with. I didn't have the privilege of, I had the privilege of hearing some Language, but I'm a generation away from Language being very fluent in my family. So, my mother would've heard Old Granny Ballengarry and some of her Nanas speak fluent. Same as my gran, same as my Dad.

It kind of, by the time I was around, you know, a lot of it was lost or you know, at the point where it wasn't spoken. But our Communities have been, you know, bringing it back a life and that's a huge part of, you know, my growth, you know, as a songwriter, making sure that I contribute to continue to keep Language strong in my Communities. I know for a fact now when I do write songs and it has that tiniest bit of Language in it, that the song, you know, it becomes not mine, it becomes the Community, and it, it becomes anybody that's connected to that mob and region, you know, they can hear that and also be influenced by that.

A song like ‘Warrell Creek’, like I said, didn't hear that song. I actually heard the recording of it, and I heard the, and I seen the translations and the recording of that come out of our Aboriginal Language centre in Nambucca Heads called Muurrbay. There was actually various recordings of it and I was sharing, with some of your stuff there that, you know, my version of it was my grandmother, Granny Ballengarry.

Now this day and age, she's like, great, great, great grandmother to, you know, massive clan. There's lots of other people in my Community that claim us. Had to be very careful about using that particular song or singing it and reimagining it or, you know, sharing it. When I heard it, I heard my nana sing it, I heard another man from the Nambucca Valley sing it as well, and then I heard another voice sing it, but I didn't know, they couldn't identify who sung, you know that version. So, I heard three versions of, of ‘Warrell Creek’, on recordings. And, you know, this is what Muurrbay was doing to preserve that old song and the meaning and you know, sharing the knowledge of it.

So then I thought to myself, that's how song should be in our family. Like my grandfather wrote us old song and it's called ‘Promised Land’. And you know, it's a similar thing that's happening now. You know, there should be three versions of that song. Should be my version, you know, I've got my cousin Casey, she should do a version of that song. You know, I think this is how I'm, I'm thinking, I don't wanna confuse you too much, but what I'm trying to say I guess is, I wanted to do my version of the song ‘Warrell Creek’, and I want it to be an honour and respect it.

What I did do at the time was I went to the Putbacks and I was like; this is the melody that Granny Ballengarry sings. I know the Language, I've learned this Language. Let's do a Putback Soul version of it. So, I changed a bit of the melody. I'll be honest in telling you’s, is that some of my Community didn't agree with that. I actually had some people in the Community that, you know, voiced their opinion to me and told me, ‘Sis that's not cool.’ And this is the things that happen. You know, we should talk about, not to say I'm not proud of it, but you know, I understood, I understood why, you know, she thought, you know, this particular person in my Community thought it wasn't cool. The other reason I'm bringing it up is because that should be a way to preserve it and I look at it different. I look at it like there's the traditional, there's that traditional melody that was known. We can continue that and I do, you know, in my time as a musician and artist, I do share that melody sometimes, but I just thought I'll share that story and I'll share that in a contemporary kind of way or soulful way that the way that I know how to, you know, create music, which is honest to me and what I am learning in my whole, you know, music journey.

So, it's, you know, it's pretty special, and I've, you know, with Gumbaynggirr People and where Language sits in the whole of things, that was me contributing to keeping that story alive, keeping that song alive. You know, you can have the old versions of it, but here was a 2021 version of a Gumbaynggirr woman like myself, you know, singing that in a, you know, like the soul kind of experience and that, that I've lived through with the Putbacks. So yeah, it was a snapshot of ‘Warrell Creek’ in 2021. You know?

Dominique

Yeah.

Emma

When, when it was, I heard a, a version of it, you know, from the 1900s.

Dominique

That's so beautiful, Emma. I love how you've said that and frame that, that it should continue and, and that it shouldn't just be one version of it and, and to share your story behind that is really powerful. You mentioned the relationship with the Putbacks so I guess how, can you kind of give your perspective on how non-indigenous people can collaborate respectfully with Aboriginal artists and with Communities, and what helps build that trust, to create a collaboration like this?

Emma

Oh, relationship, definitely relationship. That's the number one thing. Like you have to go out and find these, you know, mob and start them relationships and the world's your oyster once you do, you know. You'd be surprised what can come out of, honouring songs like that and stories like that.

Yeah. Where do we start, you know?

There's Black Fellas have, you know, songs like, you know, my songs, these are particular songs like ‘Warrell Creek’. There are only a handful of songs. I don't have access, or I don't, you know, my people haven't had that cultural side of, you know, music and songs, continued. We're continuing it now and you know, while we've preserved the Language, people now have this other, you know, there's that tool now of, okay, we've got the Language, now we can continue writing songs in Language. But you know, there might be some of the songs still left and then there's some, now that we, you know, like songs like ‘Mob March’ now or, you know, that are gonna continue there might not be in Language, but there's still story.

Dominique

Yeah, I think that's what it comes down to a lot of the, messaging we're sharing as well is that it is relationships that, you know, that's, that's everything.

Emma

You have to go out and ask. You have to, you know, and respectfully ask, of course, you know, and be aware that, you know, yeah, there's Languages all over this country. Some people are reviving Languages, some people are reviving stories the same as they are with dance, and also there's interpretation of what Mob know, you know, as their story, you know, and how they wanna share, uh, and continue sharing. Yeah, but it's definitely a relationship and, you know, if schools or teachers or students you know, have that interest in Indigenous music, yeah, it's the approach, I guess, and how they wanna connect and how far they, it's like anything, if you know you wanna connect with that song and story and space, you're gonna go and do it, you know, respectfully.

Jackie

I think that's a really nice segue into our next question that we've got for you, which is obviously when you’re releasing songs and new albums, the purpose for doing so isn't generally linked to sharing music in a, a music classroom, or for the music to be studied. So we're just wondering what your thoughts are on teachers or students, learning or covering your songs and the way in which they should, seek permissions to do so.

Emma

Yeah, me personally, I get a real, you know, I'm very honoured and thrilled always, that someone wants to learn my song. Like, the amount of times I get approached, it's like, you know, it's a huge honour for me. Um, I think, you know, the more them connections happen, the better. Like people get a better understanding, you know, of what we are writing, what we're sharing, what we're putting out there in this world. You know, I think that's the biggest thing that I love, is that someone has taken that interest to wanna learn you know, something about my song and that's just personally. You know, I know it does happen and it's always the odd, you know, student or or teacher that wanna share and, you know, like we are, you know, doing in this podcast sharing, um, and you know, with you sharing, particular songs and yeah, it's, it's pretty, pretty cool.

Jackie

I guess in, in thinking about that in, in opening, up and the, the students being able to learn your songs in the classroom, are there any sort of extra protocols or, or ethical choices or things that they need to think about, that need to be applied to a song such as ‘Warrell Creek’, for instance, is it appropriate for students all across New South Wales to potentially sing this song in their classes? Or are they maybe best to learn the instrumental line or the story behind it? What are your thoughts on that?

Emma

Hmm. I think that, you know, the artist, like someone like myself, you know, I wouldn't put it out there if I didn't want anybody to learn it. I wouldn't put it out there if I, didn't think it was special enough for somebody to learn or wanna share. That's just me. I think you should double check in on, on that though always if you, if you are, wanting to share it or, you know, have it in a program or have it, you know, as a part of a choir or something like that. There's always that like, just to double check and ask. Majority of the artists that I do know and I can't talk for everyone, you know, speak for everyone. Which does lead me to say just double check and always ask and you know, it is about that, um, seeking, you know, just education, trying to find out the history around it. Um, you know, where it is from, what local group is it, you know, there's so many people connected. If you know, there's one particular song, like I said, this song, ‘Warrell Creek’. I feel like I'm this tiny little person connected to it. It's connected to so many people. It's connected to a Community, it's connected to generations. So yeah, they've, you know, gotta find the right people and that'll, that's where it'll take you on that journey to, you know, a lot of communities have their own protocols and a lot of communities have their own kind of ways.

You know, they, even have politics, you know, around certain tunes as well. Oh, you know, that family used to sing that song, but oh, you know, blah blah, such and such wrote it. Also, it could have to do with who the song's written about could be written about a certain person that you know isn't from that clan or has passed, or, you know, there's all of them questions that come, you know, with it.

And it's just finding out, you know, Mob will let you know who's in charge of the tune, trust me. And they'll tell you where to go when they're not in charge of it, you know, or have that ownership of it and it's the same like kinship and the way we connect to our bodies and our people. When someone passes, we know who's, you know, rightfully the caretaker or the person connected to that person that's passed. So, you're gonna go around and find out what are the best ways to honour that person now that they're passed?

Similar to a song, really? You know, similar to a song. You gotta check, you gotta check in who, who's got that right now to that tune and, yeah, how to go about finding out how to, you know, rerecord it or, you know, it's funny, like I was talking about the younger generation. You know, before and recently in NAIDOC, I heard the Jessica Mauboy, um, tune the reinterpretation of a song called, you know, ‘The World Is Turning’ by Yothu Yindi. That song was written by a man that's passed now. He's from a certain community. I'm sure Jess would've went through the right protocols, she would've went to someone of, you know, finding out who's in charge there now of that tune and, you know, wanting to put her, her version of it or her spin on it. It's a continuation now 'cause it shows another light to it, similar to me with ‘Warrell Creek’. It shows another light, it shows another, interpretation of it, it shows that it still exists, that it still has that journey. It's gonna have longer journey now, you know, in five years to come. Who's to say, the next, you know, group or, Indigenous artists out there, you know, shouldn't cover or reinterpret a song like that. You know, that's the power and beauty of it.

Dominique

Absolutely.

Emma

I think the more that that happens in these spaces. And, you know, that's our people telling our people's songs. So, the more that this happens in, the wider community, meaning non-indigenous mob interpreting songs like, you know, ‘World is Turning’, or ‘Warrell Creek’. Ah, wouldn't it be, you know, isn't, this is what we are looking for? Isn't this what we're, you know, trying to bridge these gaps? This is the way, this is, music is the key. You know, it sounds, you know, cliche, but it's true.

Dominique

Yeah.

Emma

You know, these are, these are the relationships that we need to have. As you know, there's a black fella Community, but once you have that kind of way in especially at, you know, meeting place like songs like, you know, ‘World is Turning’, can you imagine if another non-indigenous artist, yeah, recorded that, that would even be more powerful, wouldn't it? Just as powerful.

Dominique

I think, Emma, that's, that's exactly what we're trying to do here and, and within education has such a powerful opportunity to be able to do that in our classrooms with our kids. So thank you so much for sharing all of your stories today. Our last question kind of leads off on what you were just saying, and you did touch on it before too, but I guess, how important is it for teachers to include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander music in schools?

Emma

Definitely have, you know, definitely want to, would love, you know, more teachers and that to, to share that. I remember when I was with the Black Arm Band, I dunno if too many people know about the Black Arm Band, but, it was a big collaboration of, you know, a lot of Indigenous artists, but also the core like kind of Melbourne jazz ensemble players and people, and what Black Arm Band, what the agenda was, you know, on, on the meeting terms of this collaboration, was that there was no black music written in scores. Like there was no, if you wanted to get, you know, orchestras to play, there was no scores written, you know, with the, with with tunes like ‘Island Home’, all the big kind of songs that have shaped, you know, black fella, like the songbook of, you know, black music. There was no, yeah, there was no music, , there was no scores written, for it.

So that was the kind of agenda, that was the thing that led that band and made them relationships happen and made to, you know, music and productions and all the rest come out of it. That was like, you know, one of the reasons why that band kind of you know, worked. It worked because you know, these mob or black fellas telling black fella story, they came together, with non-indigenous, you know, mob and they, you know, there was this huge collaboration similar to me, like in the Putbacks was a similar, like a, it was an extension of that 'cause I met the rhythm section from the Black Arm Band. You know, it ended up being the Putbacks so it was a, was a relationship that continued, but it had longevity. Like it was, you know, over 20 years of all of us, you know, playing together.

Dominique

Do you have any emerging black artists that you would recommend for our teachers to check out?

Emma

Oh, look, you can't keep up these days with, the amount you know of, Indigenous artists that are out there. You know, I feel like I've missed them. It's amazing because there's so many. Pretty much incredible, festival producers. That's the other thing too, black fella music. It's up there in a lot of the festivals now. Like these producers and people that are programming, well, we have our own black programmers, you know, so they're putting music like that at the front forefront of a lot of festivals now. So you only have to just, again, do your homework, and find out who's there.

I feel like, when I first started there, there wasn't even a lot of women, Aboriginal women that sang the, the generations of it was so far between. There was like Auntie Ruby, you know, and then there was Tiddas. That was another generation. Then there was like Christine and Shakaya and, along comes like Jessica Mauboy and then myself, you know?

Whereas now, oh my goodness, there's, yeah, if you want me to name a few, I would right now. And that would be Bumpy, you know, Noongar, woman based in, Naarm, Kee'ahn who's Kuku Yalanji Torres Strait Islander, you know, women, um, Emily Wurramara, Thelma Plum. There's, you know, I would just rattle off the top, of my head now for Aboriginal women, but I don't think you could have did that, you know, years ago.

But yeah, going back to that collaboration, I remember what I was trying to say now, going back to the collaboration thing of, you know, the Black Arm Band, that whole conversation about needing more black fella music to cross over, and it crossed over a certain genre which was the, you know, the jazz ensemble or the classical theatre style. That was the conversation there that made that whole, company burst which was the need for black music to be in them spaces, you know? So, of course, I guess answering your question, again, going back to, you know, why wouldn't you know students or teachers, you know, get involved in continuing black fella music? We definitely do. We definitely need to do that. You know, make this place better. Strengthen relationships. And, you know, understand that a lot of the times Aboriginal mob, when we are writing, a lot of the things that we're, you know, like a song like Mob ‘March’, you know, this is our opportunity to rewrite history, rewrite history in this Country. So the reason why a lot of, you know, mob, use music as a outlet, and it's because, we haven't over the years, haven't had that opportunity to tell our story as Aboriginal people and we are now. And so this is the reason why, them relationships need to continue.

Yeah, hit up as many indigenous, you know, musicians and songwriters, storytellers as you can, be involved. Um, what do I always say? Tune in.

Jackie

Oh, that is, fantastic, Emma, thank you for coming along and sharing your stories with us today, and also thank you for working with us and giving the permissions for students to be able to engage with your songs, ‘Warrell Creek’ and, and ‘Mob March’ and obviously giving that background story to those songs today and, and just giving teachers and students a little bit more to think about when they do engage with those songs, I think is so very important.

Emma

I appreciate that and you know, let's also acknowledge that sometimes you might not get the permission too. You know, there might be certain songs that you know clans and communities wanna hold on. You know, there's some that might not be so generous, you know, let's keep that in mind and there might be a reason for it. It's got nothing to do with what you are trying to do. We shouldn't be offended about it. It's more to do that, you know, there's another, you know, there's another journey or there's another, it's a fitted time for it or purpose for it, to stay within Community or stay within, you know, certain families.

I can't always talk for, on behalf of, you know, everyone, you know? That's the other thing too, I think with, you know, indigenous music and when we're putting things out there. Not one black fella talks for every black fella. You know, we have to go and, yeah. Check in. I'll leave it there.

Jackie

An incredible part of our learning, actually, but yeah, thank you for sharing your stories with us today.

Emma

No worries. Absolutely. Yeah, means a lot for me, you know, to always, like I said, that's my contribution and way that I, you know, I want to connect people. Yeah. All of us.

 Jane

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

I would like to acknowledge the beautiful yidiki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Adviser, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's creative arts curriculum team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a creative arts curriculum adviser and music subject matter expert.

Dominique

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman in my role of Aboriginal Education Adviser with the Department of Education. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by Jasmine Seymour and Debbie Smith from the Bayala Aboriginal Corporation. Bayala Aboriginal Corporate is a Dharug Language organisation based in Sydney.

Bayala is leading the research behind current Dharug Language revitalisation project. Bayala believes that sharing, teaching and learning Dharug Language is a cultural responsibility as important as caring for Country and Community. Jasmine Seymour is a Dharug woman belonging to the Burubiranggal people. Jasmine is a descendant of Maria Lock through the Lock, Morley, Douglas, and Seymour families. Jasmine is a Dharug Language teacher, a Dharug Language activist, an award-winning children's book author-illustrator, a Dharug Language song maker, a primary school teacher, and a Language researcher. Jasmine supports Australian Language education for all and works towards advocating for and promoting multilingual Indigenous Australia.

Debbie is a Dharug woman, belonging to the Burubiranggal people. She has been teaching in High School Music since 1992. She is excited to be able to use these songs written by Bayala in the classroom to support Language learning and as part of the Australian Music program.

Jackie

The Bayala Aboriginal Corporation have granted us permission to include their songs, Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu to be included in the Stage 4 unit, 'Bigger than the song'. And today we will talk about the Language, story, protocols and permissions for students in New South Wales to learn these songs in the classroom.

Dominique

Yiradhu marang Jasmine and Debbie, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us.

Jasmine Seymour

Didyarigurr. Didyurigurr

Deborah Smith

Didyarigurr Warimi.

Jasmine

Warimi budyari nhaady'unyila Dharug Ngurragu. Hello. It is good to see you all here today on Dharug Country.

Jackie

Thank you. We are really excited to speak to you today about these songs. But before we do, can you take a little moment to tell us a little bit about yourself and the roles in which music has played in your life?

Jasmine

Sure. Ngaya giyara Jasmine Seymour. So, my name is Jasmine Seymour. I'm a Burubiranggal woman belonging to the Hawkesbury area in Sydney. My, music journey really starts with my dad. My Dad was an old folkie and a blues man. He also taught himself to become a jazz musician when I was in high school, so I got really fixated on becoming a jazz singer. I went to Southern Cross University and did their contemporary music course straight out of school. I got in on my audition, which was amazing. I couldn't read any music. My dad was an ear learner, a complete ear learner so it was a really big shock for me to go to university and realise you have to read music which was very jarring and a big learning journey for me. I thought that I was going to be a jazz singer, because that's what I had been doing with my dad, but I sort of realised when I left uni, I'm actually an introvert and I don't really enjoy performing at all. Love singing, love making music, don't love being the front person. So, that was quite shocking for me to suddenly go, well what am I going to do then?

So, I didn't really want to become a music teacher either because my dad was a high school music teacher. So, I sort of stayed away from that for a long time and I really did try to get into the gig scene in Sydney, but yeah, it just wasn't working out for me. I then had some children, and I decided that I wanted to go and retrain as a primary school teacher. And so, I went and did that and, started teaching, kindergarten. And when I was teaching kindergarten, I was really made aware that there were no resources for Dharug Language at all. There was nothing. And that sort of led me to write my first children's book, Cooee Mittigar. And after I did that, I went and did the Masters of Indigenous Languages Education at Sydney University, and I was really shocked that I didn't have any understanding of my Language. I thought that I did, but when I got there, I realised I've never been taught anything about my Language, and it was deeply shocking to me that this had not been available to me in school. It seemed like a really big injustice.

And so, I started immediately making resources and making songs because I was teaching little people. And it was so, so powerful for these kids because the school I was teaching at had a really large Indigenous cohort, and immediately when we started learning and teaching songs, the engagement of these kids just absolutely went through the roof. And so much so, that one of the kindergarten classes that I had to teach, every time they would see me coming, they would start singing Ngarra Badhu which is one of the songs we're doing today.

And you know, this is the power and beauty of music. When I went through primary school, you were taught the C staff from Kindy. You know, recorder, you had a really, really good music education I felt. You learn all of that, but we don't do that anymore. And sometimes you know, it is not the priority of schools. I think through this journey of creating songs for our revitalisation program, you see how much kids miss it, how important it is for them, what joy it brings everyone, the peace it brings people, and it also builds community. Music is just one of those, amazing things that really enriches your whole life.

Jackie

I love, how teaching little people sort of brought you back to song and also, really exploring that music in the classroom. That's beautiful. Debbie, how about you? What could you tell us a little bit about, yourself and the role music's played your life?

Deborah

So very briefly, I started playing the piano at the age of four, classical piano player, lots of eisteddfod competitions, AMEB grades, and kind of got to the end of high school and my teacher, who was from the Ukraine said, well, you're not really going to be a performer, so sent me off to do a teaching degree.

And low and behold, I came out a high school music teacher, ended up working quite not far from here at Colo High School and I guess that kind of grew on me over the years. So, I've been doing that, like I said, since 1992. I really, enjoy working with kids you know, in the music space, doing lots of bands, concert bands, jazz bands, that's kind of been my thing. Particularly getting HSC kids to realise their potential at that level. During COVID though one of our Bayala mob, Corina, said we're running Language lessons online and if you want to come on board. So every Sunday we would zoom for a couple of hours this group of us all are Learning Dharug. Amazing. And then Jasmine and Corina said, if you want to learn anymore, you should go and do this MILE course. So, I stupidly signed up to do MILE, not realising it was another master's degree, and low and behold, out the other end, I've kind of become a Dharug Language teacher now which is very exciting but it's kind of surreal at times because I just really, being a Dharug woman and not knowing any Language like Jasmine, I just wanted to be able to talk the Language of my ancestors. And my Mum is a Dharug elder, and she knows no Language at all. Like that whole generation cannot speak any of their Language at all

Yeah, that's how it ended up and so in my master's degree I did of course you have to do a research project. You have to teach the Language in one way, and then you have to teach it in another way and see which one works best. So of course, I use music and of course, the results from my little, research project, the actual teaching with music, the kids actually loved that. And when I interviewed them afterwards to get their feedback, you know, the comments were; they really enjoyed learning the songs that went along with the Language, it made it easier, it made more sense, it just flowed more – all of those things that Language learning support, was just there with the use of music. You know, because learning both music, and learning Language, there's a lot of repetition involved. You know, you've got to do your scales, you've got to practice that line or whatever. But you are doing that repetition, but the kids don't realise it as much when you're presenting it through a different medium. So we're not actually speaking it anymore, but we're just reinforcing it with this music, which makes it so much more fun. And the kids actually don't realise they're learning something at the same time.

Jackie

I love that. Debbie, you've touched on and spoken a little bit about your masters of Indigenous Language Education and your research project and the topic of valuing, of teaching Language through song, could you share a bit more about what that looks like or how you have done that in your classrooms?

Deborah

So essentially, I've tried to marry the songs with whatever Language script we're working on. And so teaching them whatever the dialogue is of the day and then reinforcing it with a song. In essence, as I said before, the kids actually think they're having a bit of a break and a bit of fun, you know, bring the xylophones out, we'll have a little muck around on those. Why they're doing it from my perspective is to just reinforce and consolidate their Language knowledge, and the other thing we've done just recently with our performances of course, is the actions. So, the little kids actually love the actions and the jumping around and reinforcing the dhalang through, not only the singing, but also the actions, which is, fantastic. Like I'm amazed I've been working with the primary schools locally to prepare for performances for a local festival and each of those schools has had one visit by me and one group rehearsal before the performance, and I'm amazed at how much the kids have remembered the Language of the songs, the melody of the songs through those very quick, you know, rehearsals. I mean it's not how the SYO or SSO will, prepare for a concert you know, it's very, very quick. We go in, we do the Language, we do a few actions, we jump around and whatever and it's amazing how quickly the kids will learn these songs and these melodies, which has been, quite nice to watch the joy that the kids have had.

Jackie

Yeah, that's wonderful. Let's talk about the songs now. So, the department has been working with you to include Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu in the Stage 4 program 'Bigger than the song'. Can you talk us through why you are happy for these songs to be taught in schools across New South Wales?

Jasmine

Yeah, sure. So, Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu both reflect I think, the values of Indigenous communities, right? So Ngarra Badhu is about listening to water, listening to Country. Listening is one of the biggest Indigenous values there is. If you're not a good listener, you're considered to be stupid. If you're a good listener, you're very smart, you're intelligent. So listening, you know, if you don't listen to your elders, to Country, something bad is going to happen to you. And so the values in the song, are there because of the Language as well, right? And Yanma Ngurrawa is also about that. It's about walking on Country, looking at everything on Country, singing on Country, singing up Country, listening to Country. The really important values for Indigenous people and really for all Australians this is what relationality is, you know, understanding place.

So you know, Language revitalisation in Australia is unfortunately the largest, group so we still have some Languages, Indigenous Languages that are spoken by children, but it's not many. Most Aboriginal Languages are undergoing revitalisation. We are all learning about our Languages again, because that knowledge has been taken from us. We've been told in the past that we're all so different, that we possibly couldn't understand each other, but it's not true. You know, we have a similar set of sounds in the Pama-Nyungan family group. We have similar grammatical features, like all of our words take endings mostly. We share some common vocabulary as well. And, this lack of knowledge about this is actually a bit of a violence against us because it causes issues about who's allowed to learn Language, who's allowed to use it, who's allowed to speak it, who's allowed to teach it. But from our perspective, it's actually very urgent. You know, if we want to be using our Languages again, we need people to speak it. We need visibility. We need people to understand how they work and how are we supposed to do that if we never learn anything about them. Our organisation Bayala Aboriginal Corporation, we do view it as a cultural responsibility to share, to teach, and to learn more about our Language. It is extremely important. And what goes with that are these, universal values that everyone can find, some relation to, because they are common across all Indigenous nations.

Jackie

Jasmine and Debbie, would you mind talking through, how best teachers should introduce these songs to their classes? What kind of steps should they take before launching into singing?

Deborah

I think learning the sounds is really important and I know that most high school classrooms, the kids are going to be resistant to that. The kids here now fight over using the clap sticks and going through the sound drills – they get selected to do the sound drills every lesson, and I counteracted the negativity. We looked at the sounds and found out the words they belonged to. So the sound anga, you know you’ll find in some of those songs so the intellectual side of it is seeing that sound and link it to the word. And those sounds are common in so many Australian Aboriginal Languages. So Jasmine can speak more about that. But sound drills, you have to start every lesson with them otherwise...

Jasmine

you English it.

Deborah

Yeah.

Jasmine

Yeah. So that is a really big issue for our Community because we know there are no fluent speakers of Dharug, we have never heard these sounds before. We’ve only ever heard English versions of these sounds, so it’s really important to drill the sounds just like you would do a scale. Music and Language has so much in common. It is literally patterns, and you just need to practice, practice, practice, and you sound terrible for such a long time and then, one day it all comes together and you sound beautiful. And so, the similarities between that is, has always really struck me.

I’m a trained Jazz singer, right? And so, you do all these vocal warmups, and I really knew the power of that and so going into Language learning, we really felt it was extremely important to have some sort of sound drill that gets your mouth a muscle memory of these sounds. It’s very, very important. And it takes literally three minutes a day or a session, and you just do them quickly before you start the songs. And like Deb said, you very quickly see these sounds in these words. So yeah, very important practice.

Dominique

Yeah. Beautiful. Can you talk to us a little bit about how cultural protocols guide your work, both within your Community and when you visit other communities as well?

Jasmine

Yeah. For us, the cultural protocols about using, our Language and our music is, like I said before, sharing is a common cultural value across all Languages. You know, but sometimes in Language revitalisation, some communities will not want to share their Language, some are still building their Language, and every Community is different.

And so you have to listen, remember that value again, to those communities and what they want. For us, it is about visibility. We want to see people use the Language, we want to have other people to speak it with. If we don't have those people, then we're not using our Language. It's really important to us that we share and teach and learn.

It is again, a cultural responsibility for us. Other Language groups have different protocols that you need to follow, so just because we say that you're allowed to share our music doesn't necessarily mean that you can do the same with the Language group where you are sitting on today. So you always have to be respectful. You always have find out more from those communities. You always have to include Indigenous people in any programs that you're doing about Language. So if you are about to use our songs in your school program, you need to check in with your Indigenous community in your school and make sure they're aware that that's happening.

You need to have conversations with the people who are community leaders in that space. It is really, really important because mostly they will say yes, but you will never know if you don't ask. So it's always the most respectful thing to do is to ask and find out.

Dominique

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jasmine. And both songs are in Dharug Language. Can you talk to us about that journey that you've gone through, what that process was like, and particularly when writing them, how you connected with your Community, to bring them life.

Jasmine

Well, with Ngarra Badhu, like I said, they were really, made for my Indigenous Community at school. That's where they were born out of really and also for the adult speaking Community that we were doing the Language lessons with online as well. So it was both happening at the same time and they don't happen in isolation so the Community is aware that it is happening, so we have many, Dharug people who were sharing the songs and using them themselves, and so it becomes a really empowering thing to have for your Community because it also creates visibility. We were really inspired by Clint Bracknell's Noongar Wonderland and how amazing that was. And just his attitude also to Language revitalisation and sharing. I really, recommended it as a resource to check out because it is so beautiful. And the other thing too is like; these songs are not traditional songs. They're contemporary songs. You know, they have Western melodies because we are contemporary people influenced by the music that we grow up around, you know? We're writing as contemporary Dharug people. And so, they're not traditional songs by any means, but they are revitalisation songs that are full of meaning and purpose and, beauty as well. So yeah, I hope that answers that question.

Jackie

It does. Thank you. You've talked about the importance of, if teachers are going to be using these songs, particularly if they're not on Dharug Country, that they need to be talking to their community first. Assuming they've received those permissions from their community and it's good for them to to be teaching and learning these songs. When teachers and students are listening to, performing or creating music inspired by these works, what sort of protocols or ethical choices do you think is most important for them to be keeping in mind?

Jasmine

I think really unpacking what the lyrics means. So as I I said before, like they reflect cultural values of our communities of listening, respecting Country, relationality of place, and reciprocity, you know, like sharing as well. And so, if you're going to turn either of these songs into a heavy metal, sort of jam, that's not appropriate. You know, you need to really think about the lyrics and what they mean. So, yeah, I think that's my advice about that. Debbie, what do you think?

Deborah

Yeah I agree. The songs as they are, reflect, as Jasmine said, what they're about, what we're about, and so the styles really shouldn't be altered in any way.

Jackie

Thank you. I guess that leads to my next question. So specifically, what permissions are you giving teachers and students when it comes to learning and performing Yanma Ngurrawa and Ngarra Badhu. For example can they be performed? Can non-Indigenous students perform them? Can they be arranged, transposed and sung in Language if local protocols are followed?

Jasmine

Yeah, absolutely. Again, a big value of ours is sharing, and it's because we want visibility. We want people to know that Dharug is the Language of the Sydney area. And so, by singing these songs, understanding them, you're doing that, you are helping us in our Language revitalisation journey.

You're also helping Language revitalisation in general because as I said before, we do not know anything about it in Australia. We're not given any education about how our Languages work. It is an act of violence against us. It causes a lot of problems, and the more people who understand what Language revitalisation is and its effects on communities and how we can all help to bring it back, the better.

Dominique

So we've spoken a lot about both your work in supporting Language revitalisation. Can we touch on now how it, looks at cultural healing as well for, for communities and for mob?

Jasmine

I think schools play a really big role. Like I was talking to Deb before about this idea, like, in this world of social media, your social media is curated for things that only you like, so you don't get a broad exposure to lots of things. So schools play a really big role in promoting Indigenous musicians and Languages and understanding and perspectives. It's really, really important that schools develop resources like this that shows the diversity of Indigenous Australia, because, I mean, even 10 years ago, there was still a very like central desert, sort of focused view of Aboriginal education. We weren't talking about place-based education at all. You know, it was just this one thing. But now in schools, you know, we're really getting on board with place-based education, place-based stories, Language, so anything you can do to support your local communities in developing Language programs, music opportunities, opportunities to come in and be part of the wider Community is really, really important.

Deborah

Yeah, I think the thing is we're very respectful of all, you know, Australia is full of a whole lot of different Languages right? And we're respectful of all those different Languages. Like the kids here, some of them will speak three or four different Languages, and we're respectful of that, but we haven't been living in a world where we're respectful of people who speak Dharug or Wiradjuri or all you know.

Jasmine

Yeah.

Deborah

It's really nice to start having that respect for our Indigenous Languages and people to be aware of that and our voice to be heard. You know, 'cause we've been respectful of everybody else, but not our own and like I said earlier on, it's nice to have some music from here instead of, you know, when we're trying to teach Aboriginal music, we're having to look for something from Central Australia to play because there isn't a recording of anything else very much so it's so nice to be able to have something contemporary that reflects our Culture and our Language, which is..

Jasmine

Yeah.

Deborah

Wow what an amazing space. I have to wake myself up every day and snap myself and go, this is really amazing. Wouldn't have been heard of when I first started teaching. It's really an amazing thing.

Jasmine

Yeah.

Dominique

It really is. It's so exciting. And, I've got two little malangun coming through, two little girls, and just seeing the pathway that's being paved for our future generations is so exciting. Exciting, to know that they can learn Language in their schools and have all these opportunities so thank you so much for the work that you both do. I'd like to say mandaang guwu, thank you. And before we do finish, Jasmine, do you mind walking us through, the phonetic, pronunciation of your songs?

Jasmine

So Yanma Ngurrawa walk on Country. So, Dharug only has three vowels, like most Indigenous Languages. We do also have some long vowels of the same sound. The vowels are ‘A’, the A symbol is ‘up’, like as in ‘cup’. The ‘’U symbol is ‘oo’ as in ‘put’, and the ‘I’ symbol is ‘ee’ as in ‘see’.

You know, the biggest trickiest sound in Dharug and most Aboriginal languages is the ‘ng’ digraph and the consonant digraph and it comes at the beginning of lots and lots of our words, and you see it inside English words like sing. if you've only ever read Indigenous Languages, you might go ‘ing’. But when you actually, understand pronunciation, you know that that sound is more like, nga nga nga (as in sanga) sound. And we do have to learn pronunciation, we do have to learn how the sounds are formed. They are very, very different to English and so unpacking, that is, quite important. And the beauty of it is they were actually very similar across all Indigenous Languages. So once you know some in Dharug, you're probably going to pick it up in Wiradjuri and Gamilaraay and Nampa Languages.

You're going to understand if you just, such a little amount of information opens a massive world. So that's what is so powerful about this, you know? So, throw yourself into it and find out. Don't English it.

Deborah

Have a go. Yeah, just have a go.

Jackie

Thank you so much, Jasmine and Debbie for sharing with us today, and also to you both and the Bayala Corporation for allowing us to share these songs on a statewide level. I think you've really captured today how important it is that these songs, and songs in Language are shared, across New South Wales and explored in classrooms. I really liked Debbie, how you were talking about how easy, well easier it is to do that through music so it feels like the perfect place to be doing it and we're really grateful that you have given us the opportunity to share that, to support 7 to 10 Music in New South Wales.

Jasmine

Didyarigurr. Thanks for the opportunity, it's fantastic. Thank you.

 Jane

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane Mc Davitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

I would like to acknowledge the beautiful Yidaki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by creative arts adviser, Alex Manton.

[End of transcript]

Jane MacDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts Curriculum Team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Adviser and Music subject matter expert.

Dominique

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman in my role of Aboriginal Education Adviser with the Department of Education.

Today we're lucky enough to be joined by Dr. Aunty Jacinta Tobin. Jacinta Tobin is a proud Dharug descendant of mixed heritage who has worked passionately with her country and community in universities to preschools, government department to the corporate sector for over 25 years.

Jacinta has just completed a doctorate in philosophy at the University of Sydney in 2025. Ngura Barayagai - Song Belonging to Country. Jacinta uses music and her background in community and environmental work to educate through cultural story, language, and song.

Jacinta believes that when we are speaking or singing Language, we are creating educational lived experiences through healing pathways by connecting to Country and the ancestors.

Jackie

In the Stage 4 unit, ‘Bigger than the Song’ students will investigate Jacinta's work with The Preachers on the song Yanada and explore the process of their collaboration. Today we are going to talk about the importance of following cultural protocols and seeking permission when engaging with Aboriginal Language and story.

Dominique

Yiradhu marang Jacinta, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu Thank you for joining us today.

Jacinta Tobin

Budyari nulinawul, ngaya Jacinta, Burubiranggal Cannenmegal Dharug dhalang So good morning, my name's Jacinta and I come from the Prospect and Richmond clans of the Dharug nation. I'm speaking to you from Bulgamatta, from the place of the mountains.

Jackie

Beautiful. We're so glad to have you on today, Jacinta, to talk about your work and all of these things that are very important to you. Can you tell us a bit about yourself first and, and the role that music has played in your life?

Jacinta

So I've introduced myself as coming from those areas so all my mothers have been born here. So Mum's Mum, her Mum, her Mum, her Mum, her Mum. And from time of colonisation, we don't know from before that. Growing up we were told we were Spanish, uh, because it was safer to be anything but Aboriginal. And since I was in my, about 17, I was still in high school, we discovered our Aboriginality, a name for it because we always a bit suss 'cause the cousins were quite dark. And then from that time, music. I've always had music, I've always written poetry and I've always played guitar. And I first started at Social Ecology at Richmond, and they encouraged me 'cause I'm dyslexic so, reading has never been my forte. And so, they encouraged me to express myself through different manners.

So, I actually wrote a song called 'Show Me the Way'. And one of the last lines, it's ‘education it must be if I can help them to see if worth, that's the way we should go. What do you know, and can you show me the way?’ And from that came this song ‘Yarramundi.’ And the amount of time to sing the song is the amount of time it took to write it. I don't believe it was just myself. I believe ancestors were walking with me on that song being Yarramundi, I'm seventh Generation from Yarramundi, and from that time Language, because more songs to tell our story of Country came, we needed more Language.

And so, music to me is everything and all life has a song, I believe. Everything vibrates in frequencies. And for me, my job here is to learn how to hear that song of all things and then connect to it and then share it with others. Because it's a gift for all people.

Jackie

I love that and there is so much in being able to learn through song. Reading and writing isn't always the only way to learn, as we all know. In our unit of work, we are going to have students looking at ‘Yanada’ and in particular, your collaboration with The Preachers on that. So I was wondering if you could tell us, a bit about ‘Yanada’, the story that is behind the song, and how The Preachers worked with you and the Dharug community in seeking permission to tell this story of the song.

Jacinta

Well um, I've gotta get my dates right. I've forgotten my dates of when it was, everything's a bit long time ago now. But,a while ago when I was doing the Sydney Festival, a young woman contacted me and came to the classes and she was, she actually reminds me of Joe Clancy, one of our dancers. And I just looked at her and thought, wow, I wonder where you are from? And she came up to my house, I invited her up, and she came and sat with me and she said she wanted to write a song in Language, and when she was singing, I could hear, I could hear Language trying to come out of her mouth and it was really interesting. And one of the words that was, was ‘Yanada’. And so, in turn she, I gave her a whole heaps of different words and back then we didn't have the website and all that up and running at that stage. And she took off and came back and sung the song and I loved it. And I got goosies you know, we have our own little signs and signals that it's not just, we're not alone as people and our goosebumps are one of those things that we know something special is happening.

And so, when she sung it I got the goosebumps and then it was trying to follow the protocols. My personal protocols on how am I going to give permission to somebody who identifies as non-indigenous. Not that she doesn't, yeah, the blood tests people get their DNA done. Sometimes it comes back ‘other’. I asked her, what do you think other is? But anyway and so, in turn I had to go and follow my protocols. I had to talk to my Elders. Had to talk to my community. And then we got Terri Jenke involved, who is the lead in intellectual property rights and things like that. And so, it's a very sticky situation I found myself in. To give permission, but also to, the Warumpi band. Many of their members, I know them and, Bill and that, and they weren't, Aboriginal, but they used to sing Aboriginal. If you hear that song, black fella, white fella, doesn't matter what your colour, as long as you're a good fella, you know, as long as you're a true fellow. And so, in the end of the day, we're all spirit.

And so, I got into the hot water and so the only thing I can do and know how to do is see if ancestors and my environment is willing. And so, I put the call out to see the eagle in three days. The poor old band didn't even realise I meant a real eagle at first and you know yeah, so anyway. We had to wait three days 'cause I was in a conference and I didn't see it until I was waiting at Richmond show and then that's actually the clan land of, Dharug Yarramundi, which was interesting too, that the eagle should show itself, in the place where I first started to write music.

So, there was a lot of different connections, but then by seeing that eagle, it gave me my personal, go ahead in my protocols. Because I had to take it out of human hands.

Jackie

Thank you for that. I love, hearing about the story of the eagle and seeing those signs and getting the goosebumps as well. I got goosebumps when I was talking to you the first time, but I'll talk about that a little bit later. You spoke about Terri Jenke and her work on ICIP, and I think that is really good because in the new music syllabus, students do have to make ethical choices or apply appropriate protocols around the use of indigenous, cultural and intellectual property, ICIP. So can you, talk to what ICIP is, and talk to why it's so important that we do understand and follow protocols around engaging with the ICIP?

Jacinta

Well, the ICIP is to make sure that indigenous, music, art, any sort of form of cultural expression, is protected. So too many times, we've seen, people's work, and it still goes on, it still goes on unfortunately, but we see people's work being repeated or taken. I'm even a little bit curious on the ‘kookaburra sits in the old gum tree.’ Because I've learned a traditional song that talks about the kookaburra sitting in the gold gum tree, laughing, laughing, laughing. And uh, so that was interesting. I wonder where they got that concept from you know? But that's going way back. Poor old Men at Work. But, it's a hard one too because also I think about traditional songs and, dance and performance. No, it's not performance, it's ceremony. And so, what, the only thing that worries me is the handing down of those ceremonial songs. No one should have a right to put an intellectual property on it. But in the same turn too, if it's connected to that Country and those people's Language groups, that could be something that is a way, that's a thing I don't think we've really tackled well yet about that handing down from generation to generation of song. And no one, you know, who has the right to hold. Well, that's where, individual Language groups have their protocols. So, one of the things I wouldn't dream of taking something from Central and bringing it here, without going through their protocols, you know. But unfortunately, one of our biggest hiccup in Sydney is because of the hit of colonisation. So early in the piece, we lost two thirds of the tribe within the first five years of settlement.

So, those protocols, are hard to enforce. Hard to follow. But where I'm encouraging teachers and students to actually think deeply. Because, to me protocols is the key to it, is respect for all things. And I think that's the biggest protocol is respect. And to do it in the right way, so you're not, we didn't profit from each other as society asks us to do now. We shared. And by sharing means everybody's equal, so you don't take something that is not yours and then make a lot of things from it and not give back. And The Preachers are still talking to us now about sharing more of the intellectual property with us. Which is really interesting and that's a meaningful relationship. It's not a flash in the pan situations. So that's been, I don't know how many years it's been since that song's been released but again, they're coming to see us because we've made sure the protocols were tight. We made sure the respect was, reciprocated. And I think that's it. It's just, we just need people to be meaningful.

Dominique

Absolutely, and I think, I like that you said Aunt, that like teachers need to really think about this deeply. And it is about building that relationship with their communities and who that is and trying to understand who holds the cultural authority in their space and to really try and nurture that relationship and because it is reciprocal and it shouldn't be one way or the other. So, to consider that within what they do in all aspects of schooling and education, with their local community is so important. But you mentioned your protocols and how they guide your work, so I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about in your own community, and when you work with others, particularly non-Aboriginal people, what protocols do you follow?

Jacinta

So, for me, checking in with Language, 'cause Language is evolving and changing, you go to translate songs that have been recorded in the past, they don't translate as easily as people would think. I think we have a bit of poetic license as musicians, but it's also as ceremonial people. You want to understand if you are vibing in the right frequency for that place and space. And I think that's what you're asking too is that each community has their own sort of go-to people.

One of our concerns here in Country is we do have three of the largest Aboriginal populations in Australia, in Country. So, people can be meeting with their local community, but they may not be meeting with the people of Country. And that's not taking away from anything that the community brings, 'cause everybody brings a gift. And, it's learning how to utilise that gift within the framework of the Language group where you're learning.

Dominique

And that's the key right? And that's, it's so tricky because like you said, for me personally, I live on Awabakal Country, very few ' TO's that live on this Country still, because of colonisation and it's such a transient place. So, it's really tricky that, that even us, like when we go to community and I'm a part of my community, but I'm not Awabakal. You know, so I'm Wiradjuri. It's really hard to find who those people are and to navigate that conversation. So, they definitely, yeah, something everyone needs to be mindful of. Why is it important for teachers to check in with their local communities, if they are, you know, lucky enough to know who that is or who holds that kind of authority? But why is it important to check in with community before engaging with song and Language?

Jacinta

I believe that Language is a science. I believe our songs and our ceremony were actually our science. I tried to explain it to developers one day. It's, it's like using electrical wires. You know, if you plug that electrical wire into the wrong socket, you're going to damage all your circuit board. So can we get our heads into a space to respect sound in a manner that we actually understand the power of sound and the power of voice and, connection to Country through those vibrations and frequencies. So, by tapping into your TO’s, you are learning the vibration and frequency of that place through their voice, because we are the essence of all that has passed. We are still here.

And the idea for teachers is to actually learn the complexity of trying to work in Aboriginal settings. We are not a stock standard culture, you know, one we don't have a chiefdom and this sort of pyramid structure that most of our education system is based on. And to respect and understand that all people, no matter where their knowledge system lies, or who you think is the boss and who you think is not, all are needing respect. And so, it's a tricky navigation for teachers. And I take my hats off to you teachers. Yeah, I take my hats off to your teachers. Full stop. It doesn't matter if you're doing this course or not. Oh man. To be brave enough to be a teacher in a school right now, I think is amazing and credit to you all. But I just wanna encourage you to actually do this walk like The Preachers have done with us, because you will find life has so much more to offer when you get deeper into our culture. It will open your eyes to other things that, you know, I try to tell my daughter, all your Harry Potter stuff is here. You just don't know how to tap into it and it hasn't become a trend or trendy or something. But once people start tasting it, and I will also do a little pre-warning for teachers that your students may start to connect to things that you may not see, you may not hear, you may not feel, but they do. Or you may start to have things happening. Please do not think it's mental health stuff. You may actually be tapping into that, that is greater than all of us. You know that we're all a part of black, white, brindle, doesn't matter. You know, water doesn't ask you, are you Dharug if you drink from it. It shares. And so that's it. But to drink from it respectfully is the key.

Jackie

Thank you for that. You talked earlier goosebumps and having you know, those other sensations. And I don't know if you remember, but when I first spoke to you back in June I think it was, and I was toying with the idea of what we were going to call this unit. You actually helped me to name this unit and you said it and I got those goosebumps all over my body. I actually welled up with tears 'cause I couldn't believe you also said it. But in that conversation I had with you, you said a phrase and it really resonated with me because we've also worked with DOBBY who also used that phrase. And so that phrase was 'Bigger Than the Song' and, you know, the music of particularly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, it's bigger than just the song. It's bigger than what we just hear.

So, can you tell us what that phrase means to you when we're considering music by Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander artists?

Jacinta

So ‘bigger than the song’ is the fact to understand that vibration and frequency is actually everything. The musician brain is the only brain that can be cut open at time of death, and you can see that job. Because we stimulate, we grow better audio, we grow better cortex, which helps the two brains to connect, and we grow a larger frontal lobe. And so, we become more compassionate. And so, for me, we were actually as Indigenous people, using the education system of both brains, not just one more dominant. And I think this is what's happened is we've had that, that dominance of writing, reading and arithmetic, which is all very much the lefthand brain and yet the righthand brain has been starving saying we're still here, and we are not just here for pleasure. You know, art, music and all these things are not just pleasure. These are actual tools. And so, the ‘bigger the song’ is the fact that I do believe I can, our song can vibrate to many different levels of understanding. it doesn't just stay in. If we think of it like a rainbow, just because we're in the green, it doesn't mean the purple and the red's not happening. And if you can understand how to sing the whole rainbow and not just the green, then you are touching all those colours. That's where it's ‘bigger than the song.’

Dominique

That's so beautiful. I love that. And it kind of goes into that idea of cultural healing as well, that those vibrations and the frequencies. So, can you talk to us about how, Language revitalisation and the work that you've done supports that cultural healing?

Jacinta

Oh, I'm so proud of my family compared to, you know 10, or well 20 years ago we were extinct. People told us we were extinct. And now my family has got their own Language website. They're doing cool burns in Country, and it all starts with some songs. And that's how I've touched my family and encouraged them to stand stronger was through songs of their own history. Songs of their own Language. Songs of our mixing of blood with other mobs. Songs that tell our aspect. My aspect. And then now others are coming in with their aspect in song. And so, all points are relevant. That's why I've always done song. I just think it's a wonderful way because I learn Language heaps quicker through song. And the kids, I've got kids that are now in their thirties that come up to me and will sing songs that they learn from me in preschool. And you think, oh, you still remember that? That's sweet because it's an embodiment and it's a lived experience through the vibration and frequency within your own body. And that's really important because can you imagine times past that was our, no, not times past, it's still our strength but we haven't come together as a nation. You know, where we used to come together as nations. Because all our clans and our kids coming through, we didn't, who the hell thought it was a good idea to put teenagers all together? I don't know, but I don't know if that's a right way of education. God love you's. But in times past, we had the teenagers with the elders, you know, watching the young children. So, they were learning to become adults, not just hanging together, being teenagers. You know, like. I love, oh, I've gotta love them, I've got a 13-year-old. So, this is the thing is I want children to, the Language will help them to hook into culture. And that was what we could only give at the time and what a beautiful gift to give.

Dominique

Yeah, absolutely. And it does, it carries culture and truth and that healing for, for all mob.

Jacinta

A friend of mine. He said to me one time, he said, Jacinta 'cause sometimes it's not easy being Aboriginal in Country. It's not easy holding that light or, you know, people saying you're pronouncing things wrong or whatever. I'm sorry. Hey, I'm just relearning my Language, gimme a break 'cause you know you can get down from these things. I felt like giving it all and walking away. And he said, you can't stop singing because for thousands and tens of thousands of years, your family has sung for you for this time. You must keep singing for the tens of thousands of years to come. And I think that's really important that we realise this is not a new thing. This is an ancient culture, and we need this responsibility as Australians to sustain the first spiritual movement in this country. I can't understand why every other religion gets respect and our first spiritual movement doesn't have that same respect.

Dominique

Truth. That's it. And what you just said, speaking of goosebumps, that just gave me all the feels right then that story. And it's those younger generations that you just mentioned, what does it mean to you to hold that space personally and raise your voice for mob and for our future generations?

Jacinta

It's an honour for a start. It's been an honour, but it's a heavy honour. Yeah. but it's also encouraged. I want to write songs now that, because I've told our history, I need to write songs to help children to dream up the new future. See, we don't realise that there were songs I used to sing when I was younger and I found myself in situations that, oh my God, I think I just sung myself into this picture. And so for children to come, I want them to understand that there is power in song. That you are using all parts of your brain. And when you are in love with that song, your heart produces the largest magnetic field in your body. So, you are projecting tenfold when you are singing in love, you know? So, I want children to become empowered. I don't want them to think they're one person and they're and what's our story relevant to. All your stories are relevant. You are all empowered people. You are not powerless, which society likes to set people up to think they're powerless, but they're not. They're all bring a gift. They all got something to share, and I just want children to actually start to use that ancient technology, which is our body. And hook into the technology that's more ancient than us, which is our environment. And learn to be in love with life.

Dominique

Absolutely. How do you think, 'cause that's what we're wanting, right? For our kids and for our future generations. How can our schools and our teachers, therefore, we know it's a tricky, and complex job, how can they best support and amplify the voices of Aboriginal artists and their communities?

Jacinta

They could help by introducing to the different, you can tell, us and to the Pigrim Boys. The Pigrim Men they're from the coast. You can hear the change in their music. And then you hear the Warumpi and they're stomping, they've got more red sand on their feet. You can hear the difference in people's songs. And to hear Country through their sounds, you know, and encourage them to speak Country and sing Country through their voices. You know, by understanding what each individual different nation's song people are sharing. Yeah? And to appreciate that Country is influencing their Language, their song, their beat, their sound, because each Country has its own unique sounds. And that's why protocols are important. Because each mob has their own certain way of being. Even though songs will connect right across Country and what a clever, clever system to actually have responsibility shared, so therefore, that sharing of culture stays connected right across Country. I just think it was a very, very clever system and encourage the youth to actually look at music more than music for music's sake. Music as a tool. Music as an honour to use. Music as a way to connect. Music as a way to stimulate all your body. You know? And one of the things I'd encourage 'em to do is like find, I used to sing in a Barina, a little car, you know? The Barinas? And it was terrific for doing chanting and you get that vibration. Or a sound bath. I'd encourage your, teachers to do sound bath and using Language and then have one lot in the middle, and then you have the outer ring, and they may be doing another word and the outer ring doing another word. And then you chart into the section in the centre, and then they swap over and they get to feel vibration and frequency. And appreciate that music is way more powerful than what people have liked to listen. Yeah. So that's what I, and have fun! I'd encourage your teachers to have fun. Please don't have this as a burden because you will not get the right intent if you have it as a burden. Which is really hard teachers, I understand. So, I take, again, I take my hat off to you.

Dominique

It is, but yes, totally agree and, Aunt I just wanna say mandaang guwu, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real privilege of mine to sit in this space with you and, and listen, listen deeply to, to your stories and what you have to share. So, so thank you so much and I hope all teachers have a chance to listen to this and really learn.

Jacinta

And fall in love with it 'cause Australia, this is your culture. And the cultural cringe has gotta stop. We are a ancient nation, and we need to come into our ancientness with respect, love, and appreciation that we're here in Australia.

Jackie

Thank you so much, Jacinta for joining us today on the podcast and, sharing everything that you have. I think we've more than proven that it is bigger than the song, all of this music that we've got to listen to and thank you very much for everything that you shared.

Jacinta

Didyarigurr, Thank you. And actually, that means no, I've had enough. True. We didn't have a thank you like that.

Jane

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes, or email Jane McDavitt at creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.

I would like to acknowledge the beautiful yidaki sounds at the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country, by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts adviser, Alex Manton.

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