Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers.

Siobhan:

Hi, everybody, welcome back to the Teach NSW Podcast. It's Siobhan, your co-host, joined by Shannon.

Shannon:

Hello.

Siobhan:

We're very lucky today to have John joining us today as a guest on the couch. Welcome, John, to the Teach NSW Podcast. John is a special and inclusive education assistant principal in a New South Wales public school on the lands of the Gadigal people. John joins us today to speak about what ‘inclusion’ truly means, and share tried and tested strategies for the special and inclusive education classroom and beyond. So, welcome.

John:

Thank you, thanks for having me.

Shannon:

You're so welcome. Let's dive right in. We like to warm our guests up, we always say. This is an interesting question I have for you, so get ready. If you could go to dinner with any influential person, dead or alive, who would it be? And it can be someone fictional.

John:

Ooh.

Siobhan:

Mm.

John:

Probably Walt Disney, actually.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Great, that's a good one.

John:

Wasn't going to be my first answer, I don't think, but just thinking about it, I think just the impact that, what he created and the longevity of Disney,

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

Is just really powerful because it does really encourage everyone, it doesn't matter how old you are, to think imaginatively, think outside the box, and you know, have fun with your story.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I love that.

Shannon:

That's cool. Yeah, what, that's a good one. I might have to take that.

Siobhan:

That's right.

John:

Go for it, more than welcome.

Shannon:

Tell me, do you have a hobby or special interest going at the moment or something that you're looking to maybe, take up?

John:

I mean, a sporting hobby that I have is soccer. So this is actually my 30th year, this season playing soccer.

Shannon:

Have you been injury free?

Siobhan:

I was about to say the same thing. We're so concerned. Injury free?

Shannon:

Yeah, tell me about the injuries.

John:

Yes and no, I do remember one injury that I had back in the teens era where I have had to play the goalie, which I absolutely despised, and

Shannon:

I've been there.

John:

You know, the offence were running towards me, I was running backwards thinking that I was making the right choice to just run backwards. Tripped, and then sillily put, reflex. Put the hand back first. I don't think I broke it from memory, but was very, very close to being a break. But, thankfully, got away with just a very bad fracture.

Shannon:

Oh, my goodness.

John:

But that's probably the worst injury that I've had playing soccer.

Shannon:

That's a pretty good run.

Siobhan:

Yeah, a great run.

John:

Touch wood.

Siobhan:

Yeah. And you don't like being goalie, but what's your preferred place on the field?

John:

My preferred place, sorry. My preferred place would be centre-back or sweeper.

Siobhan:

Nice.

John:

Are my kind of two, or anywhere in the defence really.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah, nice, okay, great. I wouldn't have, you don't know what people, what their hobbies are. I love hearing about people's hobbies. What's your hobby, Siobhan?

Siobhan:

Mm, I'm going to go with something that I want to get into.

Shannon:

Okay, yeah.

Siobhan:

Which is reformer Pilates. I feel I need to join in to the reformer Pilates revolution. I've already purchased the grip socks.

Shannon:

Yep.

Siobhan:

Just yet to get the membership and actually go to the reformer Pilates.

Shannon:

Well, you've got socks, you're halfway there.

Siobhan:

But I've got the socks, 4 pairs, different colours, you know, nice stripes, very aesthetic, so I'm ready to go. I just need to sign up, so.

John:

Socks are the first step.

Siobhan:

Correct. I'm halfway there, so, you know, next time you see me on the couch I might have, you know, gone to reformer Pilates class.

Shannon:

She's 2 socks closer to success.

Siobhan:

Exactly right. And I'm very proud of it, what about you, Shannon?

Shannon:

Yes, I've recently taken up social netball, we'll call it.

Siobhan:

Nice.

Shannon:

Emphasis on the ‘social’. I do cop a lot of teasing, but I am quite a bit perhaps, too social with the other team.

Siobhan:

You put the ‘social’ in social netball.

Shannon:

I really like to get to know my comrades on the field. You know, whoever I'm marking, we are really getting to know each other. So often I do get, most like, most fun player, and I put that down to my networking.

John:

Hey.

Shannon:

You never know who you're going to meet.

John:

That's a skill.

Siobhan:

Any opportunity is a networking opportunity, even on the netball court.

Shannon:

That's a quote to live by.

Siobhan:

There you go. We love it.

Shannon:

So that's my newfound hobby, but I was never really a netballer at school. So it's kind of like a new thing in my adult life and I'm loving it, it's pretty fun. Our next one that we have, biggest teacher achievement, either last term or teacher goal looking forward into next term.

John:

My biggest achievement I think would be being awarded the network award for Executive.

Siobhan:

Oh, congratulations.

John:

In our network at the end of last year, I think. Not that you do the job for the accolades or the awards or the certificates or the plaques, but it's just really nice, a really nice genuine feeling that what you're doing is having an impact both in the classroom as well as with your colleagues. I think that made it really, really special to be acknowledged by my peers.

Shannon:

Well, it's feeling valued, right?

John:

Yeah.

Shannon:

You're being recognised, I suppose.

John:

Yes, it does.

Siobhan:

I believe you also get a beautiful copy of your citation as well, from an event.

John:

I did, which some of the

Siobhan:

Yeah, it's very special.

John:

Some of the statements that were put in there by my boss were really, really nice. And you could really see the genuine nature behind the statements that she was making. Which, again, makes you reflect on whether you're purposely doing things in the job for others to see or like, picture it. It's nice to then see it in writing that people do value and see what you're doing, whether it is under the radar or you know, above the radar kind of thing.

Shannon and Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

But I think moving forward, a biggest goal would be really supporting students in my classroom to continue to achieve their best and also support my colleagues in building a really positive and fluid collaborative classroom flow for all students across the school. Whether they're in a specialist setting of a support unit or whether they're in mainstream receiving funding, having that beautiful flow between classes and supporting kids to achieve and learn to the best that they can, is always my goal.

Siobhan:

Excellent, I love it. You got a clear vision, and you're ready to execute. So, power to you.

John:

Here we go.

Shannon:

John means business.

John:

Here we go.

Siobhan:

Love it. Well, let's talk a bit more about you and your journey into teaching, because inclusive education was something that you jumped into straight from high school, is that correct?

John:

Correct.

Siobhan:

And you've never really strayed from that. So, I'd be interested to hear, where did that initial spark come from? You know, why teaching, and why inclusive education specifically?

John:

Cool. I think my earliest memory back in primary school myself, I can just always remember when anyone said, 'What do you want to be when you grow up?' My statement and response would always be, 'A school teacher.' I've just always wanted to be one, I don't know why. No one in my immediate family is a teacher.

Shannon and Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

But I just think I've always just had that genuine, caring, nurturing nature about myself. That I've always looked after others, wanted to see the best in other people. So, yeah, just always have wanted to be one. So, going through school, made sure I picked my HSC subjects that would at least get me into a teaching degree, thankfully got through. And then, got into the degree, started the course straight from uni, straight from high school, went straight into university. And then, during university, I ended up studying early childhood as my undergrad and postgrad. And then, within that course, after undertaking a couple of special ed subjects, just really sparked a bit of an interest. Not that I thought that would be where I was headed when I got into the classroom. And then, for my final practicum, I remember kind of wanting to challenge myself, and so I ended up liaising with the school that I'd participated in some volunteer hours for, as part of one of the courses. And it actually was the school that my brother went to. So my brother has a severe disability. And so, I ended up connecting with the teachers there, and said, 'Would I be allowed to do my practicum here'? They were like, 'Absolutely.'

Siobhan:

‘Of course, come on in.’

John:

And then, yeah, ended up completing that. Absolutely loving it, was on a Stage 2–3 class, I think, from memory. And had such a great time, you know, just all the fun experiences, thinking outside the box of how to connect those students to the content, is kind of my little spark.

Siobhan:

Your forte.

John:

And fire, that gets me kind of really excited about being in the classroom. And then, I ended up still doing a double degree, so Bachelor of Teaching, then moved into the Bachelor of Education. So at the end of the third year, did my interview with the department. So I was able to start teaching during fourth year.

Shannon:

Went through the graduate recruitment process.

John:

Yep, so did all of that fun, exciting journey.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

To become one of us.

John:

Actually, absolutely. Actually, I remember going out to Blacktown when it was,

Shannon:

I did mine there too.

John:

You know, when you think about that, to kind of think, you know, where the department has moved, and where, you know, how that process has

Shannon:

Oh, we're virtual now.

John:

Changed, and you know, morphed into the modern world. But, yeah, so then, in my fourth year, I actually did a study abroad. So I did a semester overseas, which I would highly recommend to anyone undertaking, you know, teaching. Go explore the world, and see what education is like in other countries. I think that's really empowered me to see how awesome, you know, NSW Department of Ed really is,

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

Across the globe, and how great it can be. So I came back, started teaching in my fourth year after that, and ended up picking up some substantial blocks at the school that I had done my practicum in.

Shannon:

Yep.

John:

And then, ended up working there full time for the first 3 years of my career.

Shannon:

Wow.

John:

In an SSP, so.

Siobhan:

Beautiful.

Shannon:

Yeah. Amazing.

John:

That's just how I got into it. And I haven't looked back.

Shannon:

Yeah, I love that. So you started working at an SSP, Schools for Specific Purposes. And I also know from our previous conversations, you've worked in other contexts as well, like support units at a comprehensive school, et cetera. What was it like for you going through different teaching in those different contexts, I suppose, because every learning environment is different, but what was it like particularly for you across your journey?

John:

I think, for me, starting in the SSP really gave me a strong foundation of how to really, genuinely, and authentically adjust the curriculum to support students to learn where they're at, and meet students where they're at. I think having a school where every teacher, every staff member is on the same page, wanting the same outcome for the students that are in our care, I think really built me up to have that strong foundation moving then into the support unit setting where, you know, depending on the school, can be a little bit tricky for some teachers, knowing how to balance, you know, students with diverse intricate needs with their mainstream peers and working out how to support them in those tricky situations sometimes. I think being in the, you know, SSP, the School for Specific Purposes first, built that real strong foundation to know how to best support some of those students that may have then presented some really tricky or confronting behaviours, to be able to support my colleagues in how to support those students when they're in their most need, as well as then helping encourage students to understand that ‘difference’ is okay.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan:

And I think it's really crucial, you mentioning other teachers before, potentially in that mainstream context. I think it's really important to flag that. I think teachers need to feel empowered to step into those settings. And sometimes it might feel unfamiliar, but I'd sort of love to hear from you. What skills do you think, you know, teachers who have only been in mainstream settings can bring to those inclusive education settings that they might not think they're equipped with, but would be useful in that context?

John:

No, cool question. I think it's the conversation that I have with my colleagues quite a lot. They always do the whole, 'How do you do it?' And I turn to them and say, 'I don't know how you do it.'

Shannon:

That's like listening to us, to be quite honest with you. How are you teaching those high school kids?

John:

High school, oh, no thank you.

Siobhan:

I'm all for primary, like.

John:

Ooh, not high school, no, thank you. But I think, yeah, it is that battle where I always say to them, 'Give me a class of 5, 6 students that have really intricate, diverse needs that you've really got to think outside the square, to build their capacity to learn versus the class of 30 students.’ No, thank you. But I think it's that, it is just that powerful thing where, you know, teachers where, regardless of where they're at or where they're teaching, what grade, what level, what type of school, city, rural, like, it's just, I think what teachers need to understand themselves as well sometimes, is that difference and challenge is okay as well, and that it's not a reflection on their ability to teach, but it's a reflection on how they can change or open their way of thinking to take the skills, knowledge and, you know, talents they have themselves as an educator, to then be able to implement that into any classroom they're in.

Siobhan:

Yeah, which is amazing because the department offers retraining scholarships. So, you know, as a secondary English teacher myself, if I wanted to retrain in inclusive education, you could do so through a paid department scholarship. So I think it's really important for our mainstream educators to hear that they actually do have the skills and talents, like you were saying. And there is the capacity to harness that and jump into the special and inclusive education setting as well.

John:

Totally.

Siobhan:

So important that we have more special and inclusive education teachers. So I think it's great to hear from somebody like you who has been involved in that for 15 years and can really speak to the testament of what is so valuable about these settings and the impact that you can make, so.

John:

No, totally, and I think moving from that as well, like absolutely, like the scholarships are phenomenal and I always tell people, 'If you're interested, you know, apply, give it a go'. Why not, or also, just even if that's not where they feel their path might be taking them, look at doing some small

Siobhan:

Blocks, or.

John:

You know, blocks in a School for Specific Purposes or in a support unit just to really, I think, to break down that wall or barrier that they've put up themselves about, you know, ‘Oh special education, inclusive education. That's not for me, it's too confronting.’ That just to even come in and do that day or 2 or a block, you know, I would suggest more than just a couple of days.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah, definitely.

John:

You know, to give a good chunk of time to get a feel for what we do in a specialist setting isn't all that different. What's happening in a mainstream classroom, it's just, you know, we have a little bit of flexibility, I suppose, and a little bit of a greater scope to play around with what's happening at times to best, you know, best suit the students versus maybe sometimes what some teachers feel is that real strict, we have to keep to this schedule. We have to keep to this, we have to keep to that. You know, I think, you know, I enjoy that part of special education where you can have a bit of fun. You can throw your timetable out the window occasionally. You're still meeting the curriculum, you're still meeting the content that's needing to be covered. But you're doing it in a fun way.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

So talk to me a little bit about working in a support unit at your current school, and aligning, you know, that sort of like, almost like a mentorship of practice with your teachers who are in the mainstream setting that would also have your students come and visit them for certain subjects, for example. What does that look like for you, sort of sharing that knowledge across with one another at your school, in particular?

John:

Yep, cool, so, yeah, at my current school, we have a structure that we've called ‘collaborative classrooms’ where it involves at the beginning of each year within the support unit, we like to form our classes around stage-based grades more so than just off their disability. Obviously, that is definitely taken into consideration and a lot of discussions around appropriateness and suitability. But what we do with that then, is with each class being attached to their mainstream stage, so those teachers would then have their release time and their planning time with their mainstream colleagues. And what that does is allows our mainstream colleagues to ask those questions that they might not have an opportunity to ask or understand or know where that expertise might come from, by having the teacher from the support unit attached to their team. So, in those, you know, data sessions, in those planning sessions, in those reflection times, it's that opportunity for teachers within support unit to say, 'Hey, this works really well in my classroom, let me talk you through it. It might work really well for some of your students.' Or vice versa, picking our mainstream colleagues' brains who may, at times, have a slightly deeper knowledge and understanding of the curriculum and where it's meant to be at that point in time, we can really pick their brains apart to be like, 'Okay, well, this is where my student is, it might be, you know, a couple of stages a little bit below, but how can I build their skills where they're at here to still match and meet those content outcomes for where the students' peers are?’ So I think that's really powerful. And I think what happens is then, we have students that kind of ebb and flow between the classes. So we call our support unit their ‘home class’ for students, and then their mainstream classes called their ‘peer class’. So the first thing I did when I got to the school was kind of change that language, so it kind of put a positive spin on, you know, it wasn't, ‘Oh, kids from the support unit.’ So I think changing the language and pushing that out to the community as well, so that the community were aware of that language change within our context, I think, was really powerful moving forward and helped shape those interactions in a much more positive, beneficial way for all students and staff. And so, their mainstream teachers would also then be called their ‘peer teachers’. So each student in the support unit has 2 teachers each year, which is really, really nice. And they can make that connection with a few more faces across the school, which, you know, helps them feel more involved and more connected to the community as well. And so, what happens is that at the beginning of each year, obviously, in the planning and programming for our students, we look at where their skills are and what subjects they could be really successful in if they were with their peers. So building their capacity within a smaller group setting. So building those communication, social skills in a smaller context where they might feel a little bit safer and have, you know, greater time to have structured supports and learning for them in that setting, to then, you know, take those skills into their mainstream class where it could be 20, 30 students versus their 7 to 10. So I think that's really powerful. And then what we also do is have students from mainstream occasionally come into the support unit to support their learning. So if they're struggling, normally in the areas of literacy and numeracy is where we find our biggest gaps at times, that supporting the students that might be in mainstream on funding to help build their skills in a smaller setting as well. Again, with discussions with parents, it's all, you know, through that continual reflection and reporting and consultation process that we then have students kind of ebbing and flowing between the 2 spaces, which is really nice. Based on where they're at, what they're able to achieve, and then with or without additional, either student learning support, office assistance, or sometimes, teacher assistance, depending on if, for example, what might happen with some students is that occasionally if majority of my class are with their peers doing art, geography, sciences, and that classroom teacher doesn't really feel like they need my support, I can then go and support other students within my classroom in other classes to then help, you know, have co-teaching, which I think is also an awesome thing, that allows that ‘collaborative classroom’ opens up that space as well, to build in that kind of availability of a bit of team teaching, a bit of, you know, collaborative teaching as well between colleagues, which I think is really nice. And I've really genuinely enjoyed those experiences, to kind of bounce off my peers and see what you can kind of, each can bring to a classroom situation.

Shannon:

It sounds like you've really fostered, like the school's fostered, you know, a learning environment that not only empowers your students, even the small thing like changing the language, like it's so powerful, but also it's really fostered an environment to empower your teachers as well. And particularly for like early career teachers I would say, what an opportunity to be able to co-teach, for example, with someone like yourself who's got 15 years of experience. Like, I feel like that's something where they could really, like a sponge upskill in different areas, and build that confidence with someone alongside them, which is a really, really wonderful thing to be able to have access to.

John:

No, absolutely, and I just said it's sort of that best of both worlds that, you know, we're learning off our colleagues. They're learning off us, as well as the students that, you know, they can see that genuine connection between teachers as well, which I think is a powerful message and image for the students, staff, and the community.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I was going to say that in my own schooling context, I've had seen that original sort of, students from their home class coming into their peer class and working together. But it was the point that you said for me, that was kind of revolutionary just before, was the fact that your peers who are learning in the mainstream setting come to the home class for that specialist support. So I think that's really unique and potentially something that our listeners can take back into their own context and classrooms, because that's something I hadn't really heard of before, so.

John:

So giving that support to our mainstream colleagues as well, I think is really powerful. When and where appropriate, it's not definitely like an absolute given and it always is negotiated between

Shannon:

Of course.

John:

Between the team and what's best for the students on any given day. And if they're not having a good day, then you reassess, you pivot, and you go about some other activities in a much more calmer manner.

Shannon:

Yeah we take a deep breath, we pivot.

John:

Jump in the ball pit and have a good time.

Shannon:

Absolutely. No, we understand.

Siobhan:

I'd love to ask you, John, you know, around the topic of inclusion. You know, some people might be able to give a general definition of what inclusion is, but what does true inclusion mean to you? I'd love to hone in on that first, yeah.

John:

That is a hot topic. I think true inclusion to me is when a student is able to access learning, social connection, interaction, in a space that best suits the needs and where they're at on their journey. Whether it is personal or educational, I think that's where I genuinely find the real power in the different specialist settings that we as a department should celebrate. I think it's really amazing that we can have, you know, schools, that's a tricky word. Schools for Specific Purposes, that's a tongue twister.

Siobhan:

It is.

John:

That really is set up for those, you know, what we would deem as our ‘higher-needs’ students, our ‘pointier-end’ students, that they're in a safe environment where every teacher is there to support them, where they're at and where they're at in their journey. And then, again, with support units supporting students in that space where it gives them that flow between mainstream learning and specialist learning that helps the students as well as the teachers, as well as then students that are on, you know, funding support. Allowing them with that little bit of tailored support, whether it's from a teacher, a SLSO to be able to build their capacity that might, you know, need just that little couple of reminders here and there, you know, sensory support, that sort of thing. I think, to me, that's what true inclusion is. It's building those structures and systems around the individuals to be able to get the best out of them and allow them to be the best that they can be.

Shannon:

Absolutely. So, we've touched on your wonderful tenure over 15 years’ experience across different contexts. How has working within different networks supported you, not only as a teacher, but as a leader, I suppose, in sharing your experiences because we sometimes, you know, we're in just one school as a classroom teacher, for example. But we have these wonderful pockets of networks with our neighbouring schools that we get to be a part of in different variations, I suppose. What's that looked like for you and how has it had an impact on you?

John:

I think it's definitely a powerful tool that we have within our education system that we can, you know, change schools, change locations.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

And it's powerful in that each area that I've worked in has had very different needs for the community that they're supporting. I think that's what's really nice as an educator to build that capacity as sort of like a global thinker, that you know, you're not just in that one little bubble that I think, you know it's, you know, powerful for an individual to build our own capacity as learners as well. And I think, as a leader being, working across different networks, you know, from the Shire and then into the Inner West.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

Just those very comparable needs and ecosystems I suppose, for a word.

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

That it was always that fun little discussion moving across schools that'd be like, 'Oh,' you know, 'Oh, you are from the Shire’ kind of thing. Where it'd be like, 'Yeah, don't hold it against me,’ you know, ‘I can cross a bridge.’

Siobhan:

Yeah. I've got e-TAG.

Shannon:

Pack your passport.

John:

I've got e-TAG and I've got my passport ready to go. But I think what it does is it kind of gets you to think greater, bigger systems sort of thinking, like it does, it moves you away from just thinking, I'm at just this one school, this is all I need to think about. And what it does, then helping leaders, is it helps you make those connections about, okay, if that school's doing that program, would that be feasible at my school?

Shannon:

Yes, would it work in my context?

John:

Would it work in my context? Would it work with the students we have, the staff that we have. And I think that's one thing that, you know, moving forward, working at my school with our ‘collaborative classroom’ model, it's something that I've, in my leadership capacity been thinking about, how could this be rolled out as a potential structure that other schools can tap into?

Siobhan:

Mm.

John:

Yes, it won't work in the exact same framework that we've set it up because of the culture and the work that's been done by the staff to really build it within the structures of how the school flows with the school, you know, the school community, the students that, all the different working parts of it. But what parts could be feasibly taken on by other schools, and it's discussion I've had with other colleagues I've worked with at previous schools when I talk about, you know, I love talking about my school, but.

Shannon:

Oh, you're passionate.

John:

And it is nice when they say, 'How do you do that? Oh, that sounds really cool.' 'How do you go about it?' 'What do you do in this situation?' That it's nice to then have those debrief reflective conversations with other colleagues because then they’re, you're getting them to then think about, 'Oh, okay, that sounds really cool. How could that work in my setting?' Like ‘What could I take’ or ‘What could I start with first?’

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

With those small stepping stones, because it's not a quick fix, you know, change overnight. It is something that's been worked on well before I even got to my current school. You know, the groundwork was being laid before then, you know, the formal structures of what we see now is in place, and it is about getting everyone on board and making it a collective agenda rather than just a one-man show.

Shannon:

I think that really adds to, like talking about sharing with your colleagues who are at other schools, et cetera. That really adds to the power in the network.

John:

Mm.

Shannon:

Because you're able to sort of share what's going on in your context and adapt potentially, you know, they'll be able to take that and run with that in their own context. And I think that's a really powerful thing because there's over 2,200 schools within our system. And if we don't share this, these wonderful things that are working for our students, you know, we want to uplift all students across the system. So, I know that there are so many networks available through the Department of Education, for example, like your Statewide Staffrooms. There are lots of groups that you can join to be able to be supported and facilitated, you know, whether it be literacy or numeracy or special and inclusive education. Is there anything you've been a part of within the department that, you know, you've had a great experience with or that you would sort of recommend specifically to our beginning or early career teachers?

John:

I think as you said now, I'm sort of in that space of teams, and that, like joining some of those state groups, I think have been really helpful in connecting with colleagues from other networks and other schools, especially, for me, a few of the support unit groups. Just having that quick little chat, not that we, you know, bombard each other with too much information all the time. But it's nice to know you have that space that you can kind of go to and be like, 'Hey, I've got this question.' And you know, hopefully, a colleague that maybe had a similar situation or maybe able to think of it from a different perspective can then kind of help support you in, you know, finding the answer that you're after. So I think, you know, connecting with those groups and networks even through that space, just online, I think it's a really powerful tool for early career teachers. And I think also, you know, putting your hand up for some of those, you know, extra little jobs that might seem a little bit daunting to begin with.

Shannon:

Opportunities.

John:

I think it's an opportunity where you can build your own skills. You can then connect with other schools, you know, individuals that might be in the, you know, same level of teaching as you or maybe a little bit before or after, but gives you that kind of opportunity to continue to grow your connections across the department as well. Which I think is just really powerful again, to just build that collective, that it's not one school.

Shannon:

Have there been any sort of co-curricular opportunities that have, you know, you've taken a shining to, and decided to take the leap and go into, maybe fulfil something else in your professional cup, another area that you wanted to upskill in?

John:

Yeah, totally. So, I've been involved with Film By for quite some time, I think close to 10 years.

Shannon:

Wow.

John:

So sort of when it started off on the ground in my first, one of my first schools that I worked in. And then, to see where it's come now to being, you know, across the state. It's you know, film orientated, encourages students and teachers to work together to collaboratively create a story, tell a story in a visual form. And what it does is, it brings, knocks down those barriers and those walls that any student can be involved. I make films every year with my class. Last year, we did a news report on art history.

Shannon:

Wow.

John:

I had students dress up and act as famous artists.

Siobhan:

Very cool.

John:

One of them being Andy Warhol. We had a couple of others that, you know, we learned about them in the classroom, studied them, talked about them, kind of dabbled in a little bit of their, recreating their artworks, and then the students got to dress up like them, put it together and actually got screened at Event Cinemas.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

At our big showcase festival.

Siobhan:

They roll out a red carpet.

John:

Yeah, we have the red carpet. We encourage to come dressed as movie stars.

Siobhan:

Yep.

John:

So, I currently support ‘Film By The City’, which covers all of the Inner West city, North Sydney.

Shannon:

Yep.

John:

Eastern Suburbs. We've kind of grown quite a lot and joined in with that Eastern Suburbs area to kind of bring it all together. And I previously worked on ‘Film By the Sea'. And I'm doing 'The Shire'.

Siobhan:

Sounds familiar.

John:

So, yeah, and I think it's just a great thing and for me, it gets me out of the, I suppose, the strict special education support unit classroom brain of where I operate most of my time. And it allows me to, you know, as you said, fulfil my cup in being creative.

Siobhan:

It's an additional creative outlet. You already talking about how creative you are in the classroom, navigating curriculum. It's an additional one on top.

John:

Yeah, and it's something that I suppose for the parents of the students that I work with, something that they absolutely never would fathom, is their child being on a cinema screen at a local cinema being screened and shown to hundreds of people, just brings them great joy as well. And the kids absolutely love seeing themselves just in general a little bit, you know?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

But you know, the fact that they get to be a part of all of that and encouraged to be, I think it’s just a really awesome thing. So, you know, look up ‘Film By’, check out your nearest festival. I know more are being set up in different areas and networks, just as the need and the interest and the desire becomes apparent. And so, it's just a really fun way to be creative, have a bit of fun, tell a fun story.

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

Yeah.

Shannon:

The doors teaching opens.

John:

Oh, it's phenomenal. And I never thought that I would be a film editor.

Siobhan:

Yeah, you're a teacher,

John:

And things I do now.

Siobhan:

Educator, editor.

Shannon:

A Star.

Siobhan:

Yes.

John:

It does ruin like HSC English, like film studies sometimes where you then start picking apart movies when you go to see them, you're like, 'Ooh, that's a nice camera angle.' 'Ooh, I liked what they did there over the shot,' like all. So, it gets you really thinking.

Siobhan:

Go and watch 'Nosferatu'. Pick that one apart.

Shannon:

Oh, my gosh, yeah, that's really cool. Thanks for sharing.

Siobhan:

I wanted to kind of track back to talking about the ‘collaborative classrooms’ initiative that your school, or I suppose, foundation that your school has set, that's sort of been a tried and tested strategy that has worked for you and your school context. Do you have any other sort of go-to strategies for the inclusive education classroom that potentially first timers who may not have jumped into that context before might be able to gain some advice from? Is there like one of your go-to strategies or even just the way that you build your classroom environment? I'd love to hear what that looks like.

John:

I suppose the biggest thing is always, you know, really, really getting to know the individual.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

John:

Knowing where their interests are, what they like, what they don't like. Building that connection that they know you are their go-to person.

Siobhan:

One step at a time. You're at the start of your career, you know? It's all about honing your practice and getting, I think the most important thing is actually getting to know your students and who they are.

Shannon:

Relationships, relationships, relationships. That trumps everything for me.

Siobhan:

Always.

Shannon:

I think it's a big part of my ethos. Because those, you are with those little people for, you know, a year possibly, of your life, maybe longer if you go through and follow them on into, you know, further grades. I'm like, we're a little team in here, so we're going to get to know each other and we're going to figure it out together.

John:

No, totally, I think that, you know, springing off from that in regards to support unit settings as well. There are times where you will have the same students for quite a number of years. And I think as you said, relationships, like really building that positive, open communication with families, I think, is a really powerful thing to remember as well, that to ensure that you're working together, I think is something that

Shannon:

Well, it will stand the testament of a time.

John:

Yeah, and it'll help you. It'll help you get to know the students that much better. And it'll also help the parents on their journey as well, where they're at in regards to their child's needs and journey to then help support them as well. So it is very much a team effort.

Shannon:

Absolutely.

John:

I think setting up those safe, calm spaces in your classroom is really powerful.

Siobhan:

Yes.

John:

Within mainstream context, and you do see that happening a lot more, which I think is nice because then any student, and it's not an exclusive club, but it's, you know, a space for any student in the classroom that might be feeling a little bit overwhelmed, a little bit uncertain.

Shannon:

Yeah, we're all learning to regulate our emotions together.

John:

Exactly.

Shannon:

Even me sometimes. Sometimes Miss needs to sit in the calm corner

John:

Exactly.

Shannon:

And that's okay.

John:

Absolutely, there's been times where I have had to as well. I think even, you know, if a school has the capacity, one thing that I'm kind of proud of, moving to my current school is helping set up a new sensory room.

Siobhan:

Nice.

John:

So, you know, working with the P&C, working with the parents to kind of fit out a really nice space where we now currently have students from mainstream that if they need a moment to regulate or a bit of, you know, a couple of minutes away from their classroom, because it's just getting a little bit too much. We'll have students with their support staff come and be like, 'Hey, can we have 10 minutes in there? I'm like, 'Go for it,' they put the timer on. Students jump on the trampoline.

Shannon:

Yeah.

John:

Hop into the ball pit.

Siobhan:

Yep.

John:

You know, sink to the bottom.

Siobhan:

Nice.

John:

Jump on the crash mats, that sort of stuff, just to really help them feel calmer and safer within themselves so that they can then go back to their classroom and access the learning in a much calmer, more appropriate manner.

Shannon:

I'd be voting for my staff meeting in there, to be quite honest with you.

John:

Hey, look, if the room was big enough, we probably could do that.

Shannon:

Well, it sounds like you were a, you know, a born teacher, and you, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I've learned a lot. I think for me, like I had a stint as an SLSO in a support unit and an SSP, and I think that was really eye-opening for me. But that was a snippet of my career and my journey. So, I really love talking to people like you. I mean, we've mentioned it a few times now. We want everyone to know 15 years, and you come with so much knowledge and expertise. So, thank you so much for joining us.

John:

No, thank you, and as I said, like I think it's a powerful thing that everyone should, at any point in their career,

Shannon:

Yes.

John:

You know, give it a go, like you don't know what you're missing out on, really.

Shannon:

Thank you so much for joining us on the couch, John. It's been honestly phenomenal to hear about your journey and your story, and thank you so much for sharing and giving up some time to join us.

John:

No, thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun.

Shannon:

We appreciate it. Until next time, we will see you back on the couch. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who potentially is interested in special or inclusive education, wanting to hear more. Or someone who's thinking of taking the leap and joining our special and inclusive educators in our system. Bye for now.

Siobhan:

Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like, and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team from the NSW Department of Education.

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