Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers.

Shannon:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Teach NSW Podcast. We’re back, your hosts, myself, Shannon and Siobhan. And today we are joined by Matt, who is a careers adviser in a New South Wales public school on the lands of the Darramuragal people. So, welcome Matt, we're very excited to have you here. There's a number of specialist roles across schools and one of those is a careers adviser. So we're really excited to have Matt here to talk about his journey into teaching and how he supports our students with their next step in their pathway into their career. Thank you for joining us.

Matt:

Pleasure to be here.

Siobhan:

We're really excited to have you on the couch today. We like to ease our guests into the episode a little bit with some icebreakers. You know, teachers are really fond of making our students suffer through an icebreaker.

Matt:

Yes.

Siobhan:

So we'll do the same to you. My first one that I have for you is what would we find in the top drawer of your desk at school?

Matt:

Ooh. Okay. So I'm a little bit of a hoarder of other people's stationary. So over the course of the last 12, 13 years of teaching, I've basically had a pencil case that has continuously grown with stationary that I've borrowed, but not returned.

Siobhan:

Borrowed.

Matt:

Borrowed. And then I have gone to another school, taken that stationary and haven't had the opportunity to give it back yet. So I don't think I've actually paid for any stationary over my time teaching, yet that is what you would find in my top drawer.

Siobhan:

You're like a bowerbird.

Matt:

A little bit of a bowerbird. That, and then I also have a couple of notes that kids have written me, just when I open it, that remind me of why I do what I do. And then I've also got some baseball cards because that's something outside of school that I really enjoy. And it helps me remind that, you know, while work is definitely important and it's also important to recognise that taking time outside of school helps you be the best person as possible at school.

Shannon:

Yeah, that's true.

Siobhan:

I love that. What would we find in your desk?

Shannon:

Ooh, definitely the merit awards. So.

Siobhan:

Pre-signed?

Shannon:

I would pre-sign the merit awards so they're ready to go. And then if I spotted something, you know, bam, the name would go on straight away and it was easy to reward them. You'd also find a collection of my teaching stamps. So my favourite one as a primary school teacher would be the verbal feedback given, or I really liked the, like 2 stars and a wish. And then I'd get the students to sort of fill it out and they always, it was such a novelty, just a simple thing like having a stamp is really life changing in the classroom. And then I really liked those Staedtler pens, the like really thin, felt tip ones. I don't actually know what they're called.

Siobhan:

Pink, purple, green and light blue.

Shannon:

But you'd find those in my top drawer as well. So that they couldn't be swiped because they'd always go missing.

Siobhan:

Well, for me, it would be someone like Matt that's always taking my favourite pen, which was the purple one. I loved that for marking. What else would you find in my top drawer? Definitely a multiple, a large array of Post-It notes.

Shannon:

Oh, yeah.

Siobhan:

Stick, stick, stick on everything. Keeping myself organised. And probably a little snack.

Shannon:

A treat. A sweet treat.

Siobhan:

A little sweet treat for when, you know, you’re nearing the end of the day and you need a bit of a pick me up, so. Yeah, that's my version of the baseball card. That's what keeps me grounded is my little sweet treat for the afternoon.

Shannon:

Love it.

Siobhan:

What about, what are you currently reading, watching or listening to?

Matt:

Ooh. Okay. So I'm currently reading through the 'Game of Thrones' series. So I'm up to 'A Feast for Crows'. And I've just got back into that after a bit of a hiatus. It's quite an intense book. I'm currently rewatching 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine’.

Shannon:

Yeah, nice.

Matt:

And then also 'Taskmaster New Zealand.’

Siobhan:

Yeah. Cool.

Matt:

And 'Game of Thrones' on the side. And it's also post-season for baseball, so I'm watching that in the holidays, obviously, when we get back to school.

Siobhan:

Nice. Who's your team?

Matt:

The New York Yankees.

Siobhan:

Nice.

Matt:

Please don't judge for that. But I grew up watching it and they, when I started watching, they were making the finals, so, back in the late 90s. That's the second one. And what was the third?

Siobhan:

Listening to.

Matt:

Listening to.

Siobhan:

You don't have to answer them all but I'm loving the flow that you've got.

Shannon:

I'm sure it's the Teach NSW Podcast we don’t even have to ask.

Matt:

That has been on the library. My favourite band just released a new album. It's a Finnish band called Nightwish.

Siobhan:

Very cool.

Matt:

And I've been really enjoying that at the moment. So that's been a lot of fun.

Shannon:

Nice.

Siobhan:

I'm loving your unique taste and hobbies.

Matt:

You'll realise pretty quick. I'm quite unique in things that drive me and things that I really enjoy. It's quite obscure as an Australian to like certain, like baseball and Finnish bands.

Matt:

But I, yeah, I find that embracing your own uniqueness, it sets a good example for the students that especially might be struggling with their own uniqueness. And if you can do it in a way that is professional and respectful, it means that they can feel a sense of joy in themselves as well, which is exciting.

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Matt:

I know I'd probably turned an icebreaker into a actual answer, but.

Siobhan:

No, that's what we, that's what we love to see.

Shannon:

It was a teaching moment.

Siobhan:

All the time. Okay. This is odd. Would you rather have your lessons interrupted by a surprise flash mob or by a flash of confetti every time you say a keyword? So flash mob or confetti?

Matt:

So I work with a staff member who's big into confetti surprises. And so that wouldn't be as big of a shock. And I feel that if it was a flash mob, I would join in with the flash mob. So I'd probably go the flash mob.

Siobhan:

Yeah, nice.

Matt:

Because it's always a teaching moment, there's always things that you can say and, you know, ways that you can build each other up and find joy in little things. And I think that would be a cool way to do it.

Siobhan:

I'm sure there'd be some science around like the retention of the keyword as well for the students, every time they see confetti or hear a flash mob about to happen, they're like, ‘Oh no. Form in context of English. Ah, triggered.’ Now that we know you on that icebreaker surface level, let's dig a little bit deeper. Hand it over to Shannon.

Shannon:

Thank you, Siobhan. So tell us, take us all the way back. So university, you started a different degree, I believe, to your teaching degree.

Matt:

Yes.

Shannon:

And then you sort of pivoted into teaching. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Matt:

Sure. Yeah. So when I left school, I love sport as you probably picked up from, and I really wanted to be somebody who worked with sports teams, whether it be a physio, psychologist, psychiatrist, chiro, whatever it might be. Because it brought me a lot of joy and I could also see people helping out others. And I always wanted to give back in some way. And I was also playing high level baseball myself at the time. So I had connections in that world and I was really interested in it. And school got me into university to do a Bachelor of Human Movement, which is now known as a Sport and Exercise Science degree. And in the second year you had to go and do neurology, or psychology, and part of that was neurology. And in order to go down the physio line, you had to continue that on in your studies and then go on to your masters. And I realised at that point I didn't want do neurology. And so I pivoted to PD/H/PE teaching from there, because I think back at my time at school and the teachers at the school definitely helped make me feel like I had a sense of purpose and I wanted to be in a job that provided me with that and to be able to provide as best opportunities for our young kids as possible. And so I pivoted across to that. I did my post-grad Bachelor of Secondary Education in PE and then you enter in the world of teaching and yeah, I haven't really looked back. I haven't had any regrets when it's come to that, so.

Siobhan:

Yeah, do you also think that your time studying that, the fundamentals of human movement actually influenced your approach to teaching as well?

Matt:

Yeah, for sure. I think there's a couple of things that really influenced me as a teacher and why I now do what I do. The first is the human movement and understanding that the body is not just, the health of a body isn't just the physical health, it's also the mental health, the emotional health. And especially for our young people, the, you know, having an idea of wanting that feeling of success can play quite a big role when it comes to their own overall health. And so having an understanding of how the body and why the body does what it does is really important. At the same time, I was working at the Athlete's Foot, so I was selling shoes and that made me understand what it means to solve problems because every person that comes in is looking for a different problem to be solved.

Siobhan:

Yeah, solution.

Matt:

And so combining my interest for that and the social side that that job created with the passion for human movement and health, it made me really appreciate the PE teaching side of things because every single student in front of you is in some way in the rest of their life going to have to solve problems. And so if you can provide them with a little bit of skills and a little bit of knowledge and a little bit of understanding from your own experience, then it's going to help set them up for a better life, potentially.

Shannon:

Yeah, and really like focusing, I’m taking away the resilience as well in students.

Matt:

Very much so.

Shannon:

I mean, nothing builds resilience like a customer service job, I must say. So, taking those key learnings from your customer service role into the classroom.

Siobhan:

But what I'm hearing is actually from that experience, you've noticed, okay, no 2 customers are the same, so therefore no 2 students are the same in the classroom.

Matt:

100%.

Siobhan:

Which is actually a really interesting approach. And I find that a lot of people who have either changed careers or enrolled in one degree and transferred to teaching often do take with them those skills and life experience into the art of teaching because it's a vocation, it's not just a career. It's something that we practice and we preach and we learn and grow in each and every day. So it's nice to see that you kind of built your philosophy really early on, probably without even knowing it.

Matt:

Yeah, I would say so. And I think at the time when I was first starting out, I would know the philosophy, but I wouldn't be able to actually put it into words. And I think that it can really be summed up and my philosophy at the moment is that all teaching is effective relationships. And in the same way as at Athlete's Foot, every person that comes in isn't the same. The students that are in front of us aren't the same. And I think that same philosophy transcended across PD/H/PE teaching and then, and now into careers because every single person in front of you has a different goal, has a different, has different experiences that has led them to that point. It's a great opportunity to hopefully help them build the resilience, because there are going to be downfalls, but also, you know, help encourage them to pursue what they are passionate about.

Shannon:

Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned, you obviously went into PE teaching, and now you're in a careers adviser role.

Matt:

Yes.

Shannon:

I believe from previous conversations we've had that you have held other roles within a school as well.

Matt:

Yes, I have.

Shannon:

That are sort of, your pathway that's led you to careers. Could you share with us a little bit about that?

Matt:

Sure, so I spent the first 5 years PD/H/PE teaching and that was a really good opportunity for me to develop and hone my skills within PD/H/PE, but also as a teacher in general and really establish that rapport-building aspect of education while still also allowing me to pursue passions and encourage passions in others. So setting up knockout sports teams at schools, taking grade sport teams and trying to be involved as much as possible within other aspects of the school, not just in the classroom was really positive at building that rapport. Then in my 6th year, I was given the opportunity to work as a learning support teacher for a year. And I really do encourage anyone who's coming through that if they haven't had the opportunity to go into learning support purely from a teaching perspective, it equips you with differentiation skills. It equips you with an understanding of the backend of support and funding. It's a really awesome opportunity to develop your own toolbox. And then during that time, I was working with the careers adviser at that school and that really established in me a passion for wanting to help. You know, students would go to this teacher and, you know, he would sit down with them, he would go through the different options. He would help encourage them, help them realise their skills and passions. And through those conversations, the kid would leave, or the student would leave with a real sense of purpose, if not in the short term, but would have a long term view of where they might want to see themselves going. And to have that kind of impact in a 10, 15, 20 minute conversation was something that I was really interested in. So I went and did my training to be a careers adviser, and then I was given an opportunity to step into a careers adviser role about 6 years ago. And I haven't looked back since.

Siobhan:

Well, it sounds like a really unique role for many people, perhaps coming from a primary context or those who are just starting out their secondary journey might not actually know what the role of a careers adviser entails. And of course we understand no 2 days are ever the same in any role. But could you kind of give us a little insight or overview as to what, you know, a typical week would look like for you in your careers advising role?

Matt:

Look, I think the best way to sum up in a careers adviser role is the only certainty that you have is it's uncertainty. On a day-to-day basis, you know, careers advisers are both a mentor, from a careers perspective, you know, I try and meet with all Year 12 students at least twice. I meet with Year 11 as a cohort. I meet with Year 10 individually. And so, you know, we have limited amount of time to try and do our jobs, which is to try and help young people understand the world around them and their place within that world at that point in time. The way that I like to kind of describe it is that, you know, all of our kids have stories that have led them to our conversation and I'm just a character in that story to help them then prepare for the next stage in their life. Then outside of the personable side of things, I run, we call them master classes at school, it would be the same as careers classes where we talk through resumes, cover letters, online profiles, like LinkedIn. And then you have the other side of careers advising, which is often not seen, which is you are often the conduit between all the different stakeholders of that student. And so if you have a student that's looking to go to TAFE for one day a week in Year 10 as part of the YES Program the Youth Engagement Strategy Program, or if you're looking to get them through TVET, the TAFE-delivered Vocational Education and Training, what you end up being is you are the person that communicates with all the different stakeholders to make sure everyone's on the same page.

Shannon:

You act like that link, really, don't you?

Siobhan:

Yeah, or at times an advocate for the student.

Matt:

100%, definitely. And especially, and this is something that I'm quite passionate about within my role, is that we, you know, as I was growing up at school, success looked like one thing. And that was the high ATAR, the getting into university. And what we know is that there's not one way for every single student that comes into our classroom. And so having an understanding of all of the different avenues that exist so that you can provide the best possible opportunities and options for the student so that they can make the most informed decision. You know, we are talking about students that are 16, 17, 18, and a lot of kids at that time, they don't know what they don't know. So a lot of your job is to try and provide them with the understanding of what's out there, but also getting an understanding through that rapport that you have with them to help them understand themselves and what kind of skills they might have and where they might see themselves going.

Siobhan:

Yeah, which is great.

Shannon:

And I imagine, like, you know, it's a very profound piece of work, supporting students with their career pathways, for example. I imagine that it's not just you. What does it sort of look like as a member of faculty, with, you know, with your peers, with your colleagues, in supporting students?

Matt:

Yeah, for sure. You know, the careers adviser role is unique because there's generally only one of them per school. In some bigger schools you'll have 2. But the collaboration that is needed between the careers adviser and the classroom teachers is immense, for a number of reasons. First of all, as careers, we have a limited time to see all of our students individually throughout the year. And so to call on teachers and to be able to, you know, teachers who might see them 3, 4 times a week gives us a better understanding of what the needs of that student are at this point of time. In the same way that we as, something that I'm trying to, and I've been doing at my school at the moment, is we've been looking at embedding careers content into curriculum, and so I've been collaborating with curriculum staff to help provide greater depth and breadth to their lessons by showing the careers links and the potential roles that might come from the content that's being learned.

Siobhan:

Well, yeah. Or as an English teacher, I'm like, oh, you know, that's lots of skills in writing, in the speaking as well, you know, conducting an interview or putting together a slide deck to prepare and present their, you know, portfolio or things like that. So I can already see it engaging, and why not co-construct it within the lesson.

Matt:

Yeah, I think co-constructing not only the lessons themselves, but we've gone one step further to try and co-construct the units. So there's a, you know, for example, if we're looking at building the students' self-awareness, and part of that would be your cover letter writing, your LinkedIn profiles, your portfolios, things like that. Working with each of the KLAs to have some form of their assessments being used to, you know, to be used by the students in their portfolios and having evidence of learning over a course of 3 months, 6 months, showing a continuity of work would allow for that to happen. But then, you know, working with the staff, working with, and I think I've been quite lucky in where I've been working that, because I've been at this school now for 6 years and we've been open for 6 years, there's a really awesome opportunity as one of those, yeah, it's almost like I'm part of the furniture now.

Shannon:

Foundational staff member, yeah.

Matt:

But that's kind of exciting because new staff, you know, I try and do my best to seek it out and build a rapport with them so that they know that they can come to me to help them, whatever that looks like. And I think that the feedback that we've been getting from the kids is that just by adding that extra level of, it could just be a 5 minute activity of, go and have a look at the Good Universities Guide, go and have a look at these things and see how the content you're learning will actually translate to real-world work. It could be bringing in an expert that they could, you know, talk to from industry. It could be all these kind of things. It's really exciting.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Most certainly. I can imagine as well, having worked with career advisers myself in a high school setting, I've seen firsthand just how much contact they have with sort of the broader community, too. Parents, the P&C as well. What does that look like for you?

Matt:

Yeah, so I made a real big effort. I'm quite personable, and working in sales as well, and working in the customer service role, you get used to talking to people. And so I made a real effort at the start to try and talk to as many parents as I could and build a really good rapport with them. So they knew that if I was calling, it wasn't a, 'Hey, your student is not doing great in class.’ Although there have been conversations like that, it's a, 'Hey, I've got this idea I want to run it past you. Would you be interested in helping out?' And so the P&C, the local community, so in the first couple of years I put on a getup similar to what I'm wearing today. Went around the local shops, introduced myself to all the local shops to see if they'd be happy to take kids on for work experience.

Shannon:

Work placement, that's right.

Matt:

And if they'd be keen to come in and talk. And that's been really, really exciting. And then being the conduit between everyone makes it really, really, it's a really unique role and a really, it brings me quite a lot of joy when you bring in an industry expert and a kid hears it and suddenly they're inspired to go and look into.

Siobhan:

They walk away and they think that could be my potential career path. And, you know, you have the saying, 'you can't be what you can't see’, a lot of the time. So for some students, they might not have that in their world, within their home, and they might not see that that is a career. And they come into school and you provide them with that opportunity and it's just completely sparked a whole new possible journey for them, which is really exciting.

Matt:

Yeah, for sure.

Shannon:

So, as a primary school teacher, you know, similar to what you were just saying, I always tried to, you know, bring into my students' space those opportunities, so for example, like even though we weren't, you know, focused on career pathways per se, but, you know, watching videos or exploring interactive excursions that they could be a part of, for example, like a writing festival where they'd get to sort of interact with a real world author for example. Because I think that's something that can spark that inspiration in them so young. And it's the same thing, like, we would often get, like the NRL had a really wonderful partnership with a lot of the schools and they would come out and send some of the NRL players to do like a workshop with the students, and the same with like cricket, for example. And the students having that sort of like, focus on being able to go and do a session and they're just so inspired by that. They're like, 'Yeah, that's what I want to do,' or, 'That's what I want to be.' And it just like opens their eyes to it and providing that equity, I suppose, because you’re right. They may not see, they don't know what they can't see. So we need to provide those experiences for them in our schools.

Matt:

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of research that's currently out there advocating for starting careers education earlier and earlier, which is really, really exciting because I, you know, I've been lucky enough to work in some of the local primary schools as well within my careers load.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And to be able to, you know, to be able to get them to start thinking about and start researching and having a look. Because, you know, especially looking at the way that the job market moves, a lot of the jobs that our Year 5, Year 6, Year 7 kids are going into in 10, 15 years’ time, they currently either don't exist or they're in the very beginnings of what they are going to go into. And so I think that, you know, by giving them as much exposure to the world of work as possible from as early as possible to get them thinking about, okay, you know, 'This is something I'm really interested in.’ But at the same time, I think it's important to note that the resilience and the skill development especially of those transferable skills during that time, because if we are preparing the students for work that isn't going to exist because of increase in technology or a shift in, you know, social expectations, all these different types of things, we still need to be preparing them with those key foundational skills that it doesn't matter where they end up going, they're going to succeed. And I think it's a really awesome opportunity within our primary system to start focusing on your collaboration skills, your communication skills.

Shannon:

21st century learning skills.

Matt:

Your 21st century learning skills.

Shannon:

Yeah, big advocate of that as a teacher.

Matt:

Yeah, so that, you know, in 10 years’ time, they have the confidence to go out into this world of work that we're preparing them for. And I think that's really exciting.

Shannon:

Absolutely, and I think, like you touched on it there, it's those interpersonal and those soft skills, almost, like to work with others, to recognise that it's okay to hear others, their opinion, it's okay not to agree with it, but there's a way that we go about that. And that there's a way that we conduct ourselves. We have to be open to these things. So I think that's really important. And we do a lot of work on that in primary school, in the primary school space as well. It's a big part of it, so.

Siobhan:

I think that those skills are highly valued in the workforce just as much as your subject matter expertise or your skill in a trade or, you know, whatever it may be is valued as well. They kind of hold the same power in that sense. And, yeah, for them to know that our teachers in our schools are equipping our students with that capability and knowledge to go forward into the workforce from such a young age is really inspiring. I would want my own kids to have that, that mentorship.

Shannon:

Absolutely. No, you've reminded me. Like we did a virtual experience for like a planetarium, like at a observatory. And the student, one of my students afterwards, they were like, 'I want to go to space.’ Like, that's really what I want to do. And I was just like, 'Oh, like you go to space. You will one day.’

Siobhan:

'You'll get there one day. Take me with you, mate.'

Shannon:

Yeah, but it sort of sparked this whole like joy and like insight into, you know, suddenly they were coming to me the following weeks and they were telling me about different stars and, 'Did you hear what had happened, Miss?' I think that is just so, like, that's a lot of my ‘why’, like having that impact on students. And it may not have been something that was like, that I had planned for that day, but it was that incidental, giving them that experience, expose them to a whole other side of the world.

Matt:

Yeah, for sure. And that's really exciting. And again, it comes back to, you know, they don't know what they don't know. They can't be what they can't see. So giving them that exposure, helping build that confidence and sparking that, even that little bit of interest can, you know, be wonderful.

Siobhan:

Well, I'd be interested to hear from you, Matt, if you have had a sort of pivotal moment or a highlight in, because going back to our previous conversation, what I'm hearing is relationships, relationships, relationships and how important they are. And that's part of your grounding philosophy. So I'd be interested to hear if you've had a pivotal moment that's really cemented for you that yes, relationships are important in the careers advising role, and I'm doing the right thing?

Matt:

Yes, definitely. I think that there's, I could go on and on. Every student that has come across me, I’ve felt a really, I’ve felt really proud of, I think first and foremost. The first was a student in our first cohort of, she started with us in Year 10. The first year and a half was all about building trust. It was all about being thankful that they were there. It was all about being, you know, if they turned up and they were engaging in the conversation, awesome. And then slowly throughout the year of Year 10 and into Year 11 started to get work in and started, and there started to be a sense of, 'Okay, I'm starting to get a little bit more confidence’, and you could see that from the student. And then my role within that was helping them understand kind of what avenues were available at certain points. So within careers, there's certain kind of off ramps from the traditional schooling model of K to 12, HSC, ATAR, you know, at the end of Year 10, there's certain opportunities that become available then. Same in Year 11, same in Year 12. And so along the way, having conversations constantly about, ‘Look, just to make you aware, if school still isn't what you want to do, these are the various off ramps that you've got coming up.’ She, at the start of Year 10, she wanted to finish Year 10 and then wanted to go into TAFE and, which is an option that is feasible for a fair few kids depending on what their personal circumstances are. By the end of Year 10, she was like, 'You know what, I'm just going to see out Year 11’. And then she ended up getting the HSC and she ended up finishing and graduating. And so I still keep in touch with her. She's now in real estate and she's absolutely smashing it. She needed to get to the end of Year 12 to realise that because getting to the end of Year 12 built that confidence in herself knowing that she could do it. And I think that has now bounded her on to be an amazing young person who is, you know, I can't speak highly enough of. And then I've had another student that was in a similar boat, same year group, same first cohort went through, same goal of just getting to the end of Year 10. We got him through to the end of Year 10. He decided to go to TAFE. He completed his apprenticeship. It was the getting to the end of Year 10 for him was the sign that I can stick something out. Went and did his apprenticeship, is now working. And that in and of itself is great. Along the way as a young male teacher within that role, and as somebody who, that student himself didn't have too many positive male role models, I think having that impact from a careers perspective and helping him understand where the opportunities were and also working with the community and helping him get where he was going is something that I'm proud of.

Shannon:

Building up that belief within himself as well.

Matt:

Yeah, it was very exciting.

Siobhan:

It's really special, yeah. And when you do, you know, bump into a student in the street, an ex-student, and you ask them what they're doing, they just blow you away every time. You know, we were talking just earlier about, ‘I wonder if our own teachers are surprised that we’re now teachers.’

Shannon:

Yeah. I think there could be something in that. We might have to go back and explore who we were, you know, in like you said, you know, when you're 16, 17, you don't really know, well, I certainly didn't know what I wanted to do or who I wanted to be or what path I was sort of on. And it was people in my corner, like my teachers, my careers adviser. Because I've spoken about this previously on the podcast. I moved from overseas into Year 10. And it was a whole different system that not only I had to learn, but like my family had to figure out a new system and ways and things like that. And we heavily relied on the advice provided by my careers adviser because they sort of were the link between our, you know, misunderstanding or misconception or knowledge that we just didn't have. And they were able to sort of connect me with a pathway with what I was interested in and my traits and things like that. So I was very, very grateful to have good teachers and a good careers adviser behind me to be able to provide that support. And it obviously was quite, you know, impactful because I was able to go onto university and find myself in a teaching degree and then come out the other side of it. So yeah, I was very, very fortunate in a public school to have that support.

Matt:

Yeah, nice. That's awesome.

Shannon:

So, a full circle.

Siobhan:

I'd be interested to hear from you as well, Matt, in terms of, you know, we've touched on how important relationships are with students, but with your own colleagues, I want to look at it from an early career teacher perspective. So from my experience on my practicum placements, I probably wouldn't have engaged with the careers adviser. Maybe because I wasn't sure who they were or I just thought, you know, sometimes you do think in your practicum, 'Well, that's none of my business because I'm trying to figure out my own subject area.’ So for a lot of our initial teacher education students, they might not know how to engage with a careers adviser. Or you might get into your first year of, you know, teaching and still not know. So what would you say to, you know, an early career teacher as to how they can partner with you to support student learning? Because ultimately, that's the goal.

Matt:

That's the goal. Yeah. I think I'm going to answer it in 2 parts, if that's okay. I've had the opportunity at the school that I've been at, in the careers adviser capacity, to speak with each of the prac students that we've had come through. And I actually, I MC'd the graduation this last year, and this was one of the stories I told, but I had this really good opportunity, I wanted to leave them with a metaphor of how they could use careers to help them, especially as new careers teachers. And more so than that, how could they be empathetic or empathic within that role. And I came up with, you have to be a spongy chameleon, which out of context sounds really, really weird, but in context we have to be a sponge because we have to be absorbing everything that's being said or not being said from the student. Because that will help give us a bit of an indication as to what they need at that point in time. And then we're a chameleon because we can adapt the information and what we give them based on those needs. And so for an early careers teacher, building that rapport and really taking in as much information as possible to then adjust the feedback or the information you give is really important. And then that also comes into seeking out the careers adviser because the careers advisers within school play a really pivotal role, but are often behind the scenes a lot of the time. And so hopefully, by seeking out the careers adviser and just simply asking them to talk about what careers looks like in the context of that school, is a really good first step for an early careers teacher to understand how you might use careers advisers at some point within your teaching career at that school or however long you're there. Because the reason I say in that context is that the careers at my school looks very different to the school down the road, different to the school across the road because of the needs of the students and because of the philosophy of the school. And so to have an understanding of how careers is either run through classes or embedded or whatever it might look like, I think would be a really good first step for early careers teachers to talk to and really like, be that sponge, talk to as many teachers as you can. Try and sit in classes, look at different pedagogical modes that teachers may use, try and get as much experience as possible across a broader range of KLAs,

Shannon:

Yeah, that's really good advice.

Matt:

I think, and if the school has careers classes, sit in on one of those careers classes, figure out what's actually being told. If the careers adviser is up to it, sit in on one of the meetings because it's a really unique position that the careers adviser is in. And it's often, not necessarily misunderstood, but it's often not thought about. And so to try and promote careers within schools, go and ask them what's, you know, ‘What does careers look like? What does your role actually do?’ And how can they help the careers adviser do their role? And that would look different for each career.

Siobhan:

Yeah, be on their team, for sure.

Shannon:

And I think it's a really powerful message as well. I think when we are beginning teachers, and I think back to myself, like I was so focused on, you know, my students just in front of me, but as I sort of like navigated through my early career years, you start to learn you are part of a whole ecosystem, the whole school. And it's about having that sort of wider lens. There are so many people, you know, whether they're in your stage, when I'm speaking from a primary experience, like I worked very closely with the learning and support team, for example, you know, I learned strategies that, you know, I picked up getting them, coming in and co-teaching with me in my classroom. And I think what you're saying is quite similar with students on their professional experience at a high school setting. It's a really good idea to go and observe broader than your subject area. Because you'll learn even just like behaviour management, for example, in say a PE lesson, is, I imagine, vastly different to when you're doing ancient history.

Matt:

Yes.

Shannon:

So, and there's tips and tricks that you pick up from different teachers that you get through observation.

Matt:

Yeah, so there's one example that I picked up that I feel really works for me is when I'm teaching PE, or when I'm teaching in a careers setting, is I rather than just calling the names out on the role, if it's in the morning, it's, ‘Good morning,’ and say the names and then it's in the afternoon, it's, ‘Good afternoon,’ as you say the names. And just welcoming them in by saying, ‘Good morning.’ And like, 'I'm happy you're all here.’ Starting the day with that. Especially for those kids in Year 9 and 10, that getting up was a struggle. Getting to school was a struggle. They might be carrying.

Shannon:

They might not have had breakfast.

Matt:

They might have had breakfast. They've got a lot in their bag, in their invisible bag that they're carrying, to welcome them with a good morning is really, really powerful and encouraging.

Siobhan:

Hey, it works for me at the coffee shop. You know, there was at some point in time where people at the coffee shop stopped saying like, 'Order for Siobhan.’ And now they say, 'Thanks, Siobhan.’ You know, it's the psychology behind it.

Matt:

Exactly. Definitely. And I think just to backtrack just a little bit, I think that as an early careers teacher, trying to build that rapport, the careers adviser is a wealth of knowledge for students' interests and needs and how you might potentially reach them in class. If you've got a student that's disengaged in class, it may very well be that, you know, they're really interested in construction and you're teaching ancient history. Well, how could you potentially link the concept that you're learning in that time to construction to hook that student in and the careers adviser.

Siobhan:

Well, the limit does not exist with ancient history.

Matt:

So how might?

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And that's a great way that you can bring the careers adviser in as well.

Siobhan:

You're right. You might actually know the full picture of their life, whereas I might only know part of their life and what they present to me in English. Whereas you might have a bit more insight into that. So that's very useful advice.

Matt:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Well, before we wrap up, Matt, I'd just be interested to know, because I can imagine sometimes careers advisers might not know who to turn to for advice or what the best resources are. So do you have some go-to resources that you could share with us?

Matt:

Yeah, for sure. First and foremost, there is the Careers Advisers Association, which is our association. And they offer a mentor program for new careers advisers that have come in, with experienced careers advisers that have been in the role technically for longer than 10 years. I'm a mentor, I've only been doing it for 6 years. But that is a really awesome opportunity. And there's a bunch of resources on there that are across the public system, but can also go into the other systems as well. Within the department, there's the Statewide Staffroom that has both the careers advisers, the transition advisers, which is a slightly different role, and then VET coordinators as well. And there's resources for all that. And one of the projects that I've worked on previously with the department was providing resources for specific KLAs to embed careers into them, which was headed up within the department. And those resources are available on the department website and then also within the department, there's a pilot program that I'm also part of at the moment where I'm mentoring a new careers adviser. And so there is mentoring available for new careers advisers. I'm always happy to talk as well, so if people want to get in touch with me, I'm sure they can reach out, please. Because I think that careers is a really wonderful role within the school, but it's often a role that can be either misunderstood or it could be forgotten about. And I think that, you know, we play a really pivotal role when it comes to shaping these young people's lives. New careers advisers should feel an element of support that's out there both from resources and from experienced careers advisers. And I know that all the others, mentors that I'm with and those people who are experienced within the CAA, would be happy to help as well.

Siobhan:

Teach NSW never forgets about our careers advisers because we actually have a Careers Advisers Hub for CAs to turn to if they have students interested in a career in teaching. Often because we are teachers ourselves, we can sometimes lose track of what the process was or it might've looked one way for us. So this hub has the most up-to-date information with pathways for students to take, which university courses are accredited, for example, scholarships that are available for them to apply for each year and things like that. So we have the Careers Adviser Resource Hub to help you too.

Matt:

Yes, and credit to the department and Teach NSW because trying and helping young people make a seamless transition from school to university into education, especially when there's so much information out there, to be able to narrow it down is really, really, and that's something that I've tried to do, but I wouldn't have been able to do it without the help of the resources available.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan:

If there's something that careers advisers would like to see, they can actually reach out to us and we'd be happy to take on their feedback of what we could do to support them to in turn support their students to consider a career in teaching. So if you're listening, please do reach out and let us know your feedback.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. It takes a village, as they like to say.

Matt:

Yes, it does.

Siobhan:

Well that's all we have time for today in this incredible episode about the breadth of what it is to be a careers adviser within New South Wales public schools. We're so thankful to Matt for joining us today.

Matt:

Thank you.

Siobhan:

Your knowledge just shines through and your true passion for your role really shines through as well. So we're very thankful to have you. Until then, we'll see you on the next episode of the Teach NSW Podcast. Take care. Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning into the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe, to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @teachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team from the NSW Department of Education.

[End transcript]